I am new to vinyls and have a collection my parents used to keep up. I bought my first vinyl this week through eBay which was, "Modest Mouse - Good news for people who like bad news."

I had questions that I am hoping someone can answer.

1) Where can I find records? eBay? I found Tower Records and Mail Order Vinyls or something like that.

2) I am looking at getting a Stanton STR8-80 and whatever cartidge that comems with it/I can afford. I like this turntable because it has optical out and seems to be a good home audio/beginner table for a good price (200-250$?) Does this sound like a good choice?

3) I was reading a thread about how someone used a carbon fiber anti-static brush to clean the vinyls. My father has told me he hates vinyls over cd due to the problems with dust and the fact that it's mechanical and the vinyls wear down because the needle digs a hole in the groove? How do you guys justify vinyls to your CD-worshipping friends? I am just happy I don't have to crank one of those cd cleaning contraptions again.

Also, any last hints/tips I should know starting out?

Links to some stuff I mentioned:
http://www.musicmailexpress.com
http://www.towerrecords.com/Music/Default....4&format=Vinyl&
http://www.stantondj.com/alpha44/load.asp?page=str880

Thanks guys.

I play them once them for the transfer to FLAC then archive so the needle ideally never touches the record again.
edit: This also keeps that light crackly sound that I like in many cases without causing further damage.

ok so is FLAC better than WAV? what's the advantage of buying on vinyl in the first place? i thought the process was better sounding because i wasn't digitizing the stuff and compressing it at all... I know WAV is "uncompressed" and supposedly the highest but from what I saw on HSW it is not lossy.

HSW article - http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/question487.htm

Hints or tips? Yes, listen to your father. CD's are better. Believe it or not, CD's were not a leap backward in technology. Just my experience from ~1954 to present.

I wasn't saying they weren't a "big leap in technology" but I meant as far as music goes. I don't like how easy cds scratch and what not :-(

How much do records wear down?

not trying to assume what your level of knowledge is but just going off your post count and for the sake of thoroughness - FLAC is lossless and hence there is no difference at all 'soundwise' between those and WAV. The advantages are numerous and include such things as Tags and smaller files just to name a few.

depending on your tastes, selection is huge one. the bulk of my vinyl collection would be very difficult at best and more likely utterly impossible to acquire on CD. My musical tastes tend focus on 1955 and earlier and I have had much bettter luck finding what I like on older vinyls.
The boxed set 'Top Hits of 1937' in the 78 format (released in 1947) is just one example in my collection.

Analogue versus Digital.!?

Not really. The_Cisco_Kid makes a very valid point about the availability of older stuff. I think the fact that he immediately converts things to digital speaks volumes.

Maybe i was a bit unclear, i was refering to the topic itself, not the answer
to the kid.

It is much easier to wear out a record than it is a CD. So even best cared for records will have some surface noise.

But surface noise is not an issue with a Nitty Gritty vacuum cleaner. Admittedly, they are a bit pricey, but even the basic model (I own one) gets the job done very well.

For all your equipment needs there is KAB.
For hard-to-find/OOP records see GEMM.

I prefer vinyl to CD sometimes when the original master on the vinyl is better than the CD pressing. People claim that vinyl has a warmer sound and I would agree. The problem with vinyl is wear and the fact that it's a self destroying process to play a record. Over time the groove will wear out and longevity vs CD, CD wins. I've done some experimenting with vinyl vs. CD. I've recorded some records that I believed to sound better than the CD pressing. I recorded them via my computer and burned it to a CD and I blind tested whether or not I could tell the difference between the recorded vinyl to the original and I could not. Just something to think about I guess.

The Stanton models are solid. Anything below the 80 is a belt drive and although the belt drive reigns supreme in hi-fi, many experience DJ's will tell that the DJ belt drive tables simply bite the big one. The Str8-80 is nice table and the 90 I believe is the European wholly analog output version.

A carbon fiber brush is a must. They are on Ebay or try the Needle Doctor on the web or similar sites.

Vinyl wears out...eventually so will a cd. That said....there are many reasons to continue to buy vinyl.

Buying old 45's or 78's...there is a vast plethora of outdated and out of print material...gems to be gathered.

I like to archive one particualr genre to HD and stoe in .ape format that doesn't mean I am selling of my records; the platter is spinning. The fact is there are a lot of poorly recorded cd's out there, and poorly recorded LP's too (most of those Studio One represses are abhorrent).

I mean, a greater percent of the last century's music was released on vinyl. I don't see why someone wouldn't own a record player.......especially when you can drop by the Salvation Army or a yard sale after a haircut and pickup up 30 albums for free-or 1$ a pop...it's history, it's something tangible, it's analog...the technology is simply fascinating.

Vinyl is just a piece of the puzzle, good luck, I think you will enjoy it.

Great post doctor!

I just got into vinyl recently as well. Not only is it a great medium for hard to find albums, but even if you find well known albums they are usually $1 or less per record...damn better than CDs most places. The places I buy records from: Ebay, Salvation Army, yardsales. To be honest I bought the turntable just to listen to 2 albums that aren't available on CD, but the love grew from there .

BTW I own a Technics SL-1300 I bought for a little over $100 at an electronics fair...very satisfied.

Second-hand/used/thrift/charity shops? Car boot/junk/antique sales?

btw, CDs do not wear out!

Cheers,
David.

cd's do wear out, but not quality wise.. once your cd is worn out it will start skipping or even refuse to play, a vinyl record will always continue to play but the quality will get worse and worse, just like audio-tape.

having said that a lot of electronic music is being released on vinyl. my favourite labels only have about 3 cd's out, all the rest was released on vinyl! if you like electronic music as well, check out Clone Record Store Rotterdam Holland..

and buying a good needle really makes a difference.. personally i got an old decent siemens rw 300 recordplayer (direct drive) and i am going to buy a new Grado Platinum Black cartridge to replace the standard one.. i was informed by a high-end store and they told me this cartridge will do the sound justice because of it's great low frequency response.. and for about $40,- it's not a bad deal

personally i also prefer ripping the vinyl to my pc so i don't have to use the record. mostly because the records i do have are generally collectors items.. it's also important to store your records properly, in good materials as well..

my preferred ripping steps:
1 - record in 24bit / 96khz WAV with good soundcard & Adobe Audition
2 - edit the wav file (cut to songs, remove silence, filter noise / clicks / pops, normalise / gain) with Adobe Audition
3 - export to 16bit WAV
4 - compress to high quality mp3 with LAME or in case i really like the record APE files
6 - tag the files with Mp3Tag.de

the rips i have acquired generally sound extremely crisp & clear, but this does differ per record. old records generally mean you have to clean & filter them extremely well, while trying not to loose sound quality too much.. i prefer fixing each click by hand.. they are easy to spot due to the fact they are generally shown as huge peaks in the display.. once again adobe audition has many, many options to fix files.. give it a try..

CDs do not wear out!!!

Some can rot
Many get scratched
Some are left in the sun and warp
Some nasty plastic wallets rip the recording layer right off

but simply through playing, CDs do not wear out.

Take a CD, put it in a CD player, put it on repeat play. Leave it for years.
The player will die before the disc does!


btw, I'd never use a DJ deck or cartridge unless I wanted to DJ.

Cheers,
David.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/ptech/05/06/d...t.ap/index.html

Let's have a look what 2bd wrote:

>Some can rot.

and

>but simply through playing, CDs do not wear out

That's what the article talks: CD rot. Due to extremely adverse storage/handling conditions. Not about
There is no need to quote somebody's whole post if you don't even bother to read it.

"cd's do wear out, but not quality wise.. once your cd is worn out it will start skipping or even refuse to play, a vinyl record will always continue to play but the quality will get worse and worse, just like audio-tape."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This is an extremely good point. Now that I am running my cd players to my amp via digital, I experience this daily. For the record, a digital pop (in my experience) is much louder and annoying than anything can spit out. Although CD's can have their scratches repaired. Vinyl can be cleaned etc The tradeoffs go back and forth.

The "DJ" deck ~ The Direct Drive technology is implemented rather well these days and the higher end Stanton, Vestax, & Technics models are extremely well built. DJ's need good sound too and in radio stations around the country your not going to find VPI TNT or Michelle Gyrodecs but Technics tables with DJ cartridges such as Ortofon & Stanton or Shure. Simply put, a "DJ" deck can sound great (or as some would say "good enough").

You could slap an Ortofon X5-MC or a Grado Platinum or other semi-highend cart onto a good DJ table and be very happy. However I find that with a DJ table it is essential to have a stylus type which allows for backcueing...for mixing. I plan on getting a couple Stanton tables myself for just this purpose since my Denon DJ table is now my uncles.

The Stanton come with a cart. and are well built. I love to make mixes and will utlilize my TT's, dual cd player, and PC....I will not use the VPI. Especially when "the boys" come over. A DJ deck is an essential tool that should NEVER be underestimated.

That's a contradiction, as far as I know. I've been told that FM radio doesn't have the bandwidth to sound quite as good as CD, let alone a well-played LP. Can anybody shed any light on this? I hope it's not too far off-topic at this point in the discussion that it would bother anybody.

if you buy an extremely good needle you will also read the groove deeper than a DJ needle. Dj needles are generally pretty flat, which allows you to turn the record both ways for mixing.. being flat the needle doesn't destroy your vinyl.. if you did this with a proper needle i don't think your vinyl would like it too much

the best needles actually wear down but stay the same shape.. this way they follow the groove much better, and allow you to keep using the needle for many hours more..

i have read that a normal needle is only fit to play about 400 ~ 600 hours of vinyl...

@2Bdecided
easy on the font size, you hurt my ears! lol..
but if a cd degenerates in sunlight & heat, it should do the same if being played for years.. because you are constantly shining a laser on it and the disc becomes really hot.. if this was a copied cd i think it would "wear out".. especially if played in a dvd player, they seem to get a lot hotter than a standard cd player.

actually a good recording on cd will sound better, it has a bigger frequency range.. vinyl just sounds so nice due to the frequency filters & modifiers in the hardware itself.. it gives it that "warm" feeling, right?

the original signal is just affected, sort of like using a DSP...
the vinyl should actually sound worse than the cd...

Do good modern DJ cartridges wear records as little as good modern audiophile cartridges? I don't have any experience of what's out there now, but I'd suggest the compromises needed to allow proper DJing have an effect both on record life and sound quality.


I _think_ it's the UV in sunlight that damages CDs, whereas they're read with a red laser.


The argument in this thread pivots on the use of the word "wear". That's quite specific, and it's not "wear and tear", it's not "accidental damage", and it's certainly not "wilful neglect". It has nothing to do with "manufacturing faults", and it isn't even "lifetime expectancy under ideal storage conditions (without use)". It's about the effect of playing the thing - the detrimental effect of repeatedly playing a CD is negligible, while the detrimental effect of repeatedly playing an LP is audible and measurable (though not nearly as bad as some would make out).

That's what I was trying to say - nothing more, nothing less.


Please, can we avoid another CD/LP/FM thread?!!!!! It's interesting, but the facts are in the FAQ, and aimless mythical discussion is probably OT. EDIT: Sorry NeoRenegade, that sounded harsher than I meant it to!

Cheers,
David.
P.S. sorry about the large font, but it woke ya up!

As far as I know the wear & tear on your vinyl due to the needle should have been minimalised already.. It has always been one of the most discussed topics when it comes to vinyl.. The biggest problems also seemed to be the material your vinyl is actually made of, some materials wear out a lot faster than others.

The thing with DJ needles is often that they wear out the top edge of the groove, since the needle is actually a bit flat.. Hence it does not touch the bottom of the groove.. If you get an audiophile needle it will fall into the groove completely, thus still retrieving the quality from the bottom of the groove which the DJ needle has not touched.. And since the audiophile needle is most likely shaped almost exactly like the groove it will also create less friction on the vinyl, lowering the wear & tear. Of course dirt DOES fall into the groove, which is possibly also a reason DJ needles are flatter.. This saves the DJ from having to clean his record over and over, which can also cause deterioration

Thus my advice is: audiophile needle and rip to your pc or a cd which is stored properly

...but you said that "cd will sound better, it has a bigger frequency range" than vinyl, which is demonstrably wrong.

I think you're guessing snek one!

Cheers,
David.

If I can throw my 2-cents worth in here: you really don't want "DJ" or "Pro" needles and cartridges for home use. Most of these needles were designed to withstand heavy-handed DJ's who could give a rats-patootie about the record. Consequently, the styli tend to be "heavy-duty" - read: thick and heavy. They simply can't trace the high-frequencies of a record the way a good Grado or Ortofon will. FM radio had a very limited frequency response and heavy compression. Fidelity wasn't a concern.

Stanton are great "Pro" cartridges - lousy fidelity however. You really can't go wrong with even an inexpensive Grado, and some of the Ortofons.

Needles? Stili? Who needs 'em!

http://www.smartdev.com/LT/laserturntable.html

I've noticed this too. I have Parliament's "Up for the Downstroke" on CD, 8-track, and vinyl. The vinyl actually has different mixes on it, not just different band compression. Also, Zappa's "Bongo Fury" has a much more present bass guitar on 8-track and vinyl than on CD.

Did I miss something here?
Is it true that good ol' vinyl has a bigger frequency range compared to CDs, thus making them better?
Woah!! I always thought it was the other way around. Please enlighten me

One more question: Has anyone ever done an ABX test on CDs and Vinyl and compared the two media? Does anyone know of any such thing? Thanks.

In theory, the frequency range of vinyl is not limited at 22 kHz like the Cd's one, but in practice, record wear will quickly attenuate the higher part of the frequency range. Look at these frequency responses, compared to the CD : http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....indpost&p=28616

I've already heard once that audiophile tips went deeper in the groove, but I always thought it was a mere commercial argument. Actually, the best tips (linear contact shapes) try to read the groove all the way from top to bottom in order to reduce the pressure applied to the contact point. You can find elliptical or linear contact shaped tips for DJ cartridges. Stanton cartriges for example are usually available with 4 different tips : spherical (for backcueing), elliptical or stereohedron (registered linear contact shape, for audiophile use), LP, and 78 RPM.

There was a test once published in a french magazine about some DJ cartridges, about record wear. They did play the DJ tens of times repeatedly on the same part of the groove of a record, with all cartridges. The results were very different from cartridge to cartridge... from completely damaged to quite unharmed.

Fidelity is usually OK with DJ cartridges. Listen to the files 11 and 12 in the thread linked above. One is a CD rip, the other a vinyl played with a Stanton Trackmaster DJ cartridge, but with the stereohedron stylus.
You've got three links in the FAQ about "CD" versus "vinyl copied on CD" tests (including the one above).

Stunning pictures of stylii : http://www.recordcollectorsguild.org/vinyl_microscopy.html

Too bad this one is in German : http://www.fl-electronic.de/analog/tonabnehmer.html

I don't know how it would be possible to actually do an ABX on CD vs. vinyl since the noisefloor(even one pop or click from a partical of dust on a record) will give them away. Additinally, vinyl transfer and playback process created levels of THD that are within known audible JNDs.[1] However, it would be possible to do an ABX on a vinyl record vs. a 44.1/16 PCM line delay, comparing the analogue feed vs. the A-D-A converted feed. Such an ABX test was performed in a studio a number of years ago comparing master tape to a PCM line delay.[2]

-Chris

[1] 'Just Detectable Distortion Levels', James Moir, F.I.E.E, Wireless World, Feb. 1981

[2] http://www.pcavtech.com/abx/abx_digi.htm

thought of mentioning that option but the cost is prohibitive for most people.

I did it too Link in the FAQ.

Unfortunately, LPs do wear out. We picked up a Thorens TD-145 mkII last year, had an Ortofon Super OM-20 cart put in, have been recording our LPs to the PC then burning CDs. Just a wear issue. We can debate LP vs. CD, each format is capable of beautiful sound. Many factors: The quality of the original recording and pressing are very significant, and of course the quality of all the components: source, amplifier, cables, speakers.

Recommend you spend some time at Audio Asylum, in the Vinyl section. Many knowledgeable people there who are very helpful, like the crew here at Hydrogen.

*drools*

I actually own a decent collection of vinyl myself, most of it having been purchased as a kid in the 1980s. However, as with many things, the vinyl vs. CD debate can be framed in terms of personal preference, audiophile-speek and snake oil aside. Yes, vinyl can sound quite good under the optimal conditions (good playback chain, proper handling and care of LP's, etc.) but for me personally, the benefit does not outweigh the convenience and ubiquity of CD's. That being said, vinyl IS a great way to sample different bands and genres of music not previously considered. If not for the many $1 records I've stumbled across at rummage sales and the like, I might never have discovered things like jazz fusion, pre-1970 Pink Floyd, and electric blues. That's why I personally am interested in vinyl LP's, not for sound quality.

Noise, clicks, wear, equipment etc etc not withstanding, you can record and replay a 23kHz sine wave onto vinyl.

It's fundamentaly impossible with CD-DA.

Cheers,
David.