Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: 32kbps public listening test - OPEN
Hydrogenaudio Forums > Hydrogenaudio Forum > Validated News
Pages: 1, 2, 3
vinnie97
QUOTE(Mac @ Jul 12 2004, 12:01 PM)
QUOTE(AstralStorm @ Jul 12 2004, 07:40 PM)
Well, which version of Java? Below 1.4.2 there will be problems,
as Java Sound still is in development.

It sais v1.4.2_03 - the same version I was running before.
*



I updated to 1.4.2_05 (was using 1.3.X prior to this test...sounds would play but switching between sources would sometimes result in the application hanging) and experienced no probs.
Bogalvator
I used 1.5.0 beta 2 and it seemed to work OK. I've never seen anyone else mention they were using this version though - is it not considered safe to use? Should I revert to 1.4.2-05?
Mac
I've upgraded to 1.4.2_05 and have the same problems, although I have managed to narrow it down somewhat.

If I open an existing session, everything breaks (no sound, trouble rendering the screen) - but if I start the test again, it appears to work normally.

Is there some reason for this, such as an existing session containing info about my sound & graphics drivers perhaps? I've changed both the sound and gfx card in this computer, so if it was trying to draw and play things the same way it would run into difficulty. This is just a stab in the dark though smile.gif
rjamorim
QUOTE(rjamorim @ Jul 12 2004, 11:40 AM)
Wish me luck. It'll still take some time, but hopefully I'll get access to a laptop sick.gif and dial-up sick.gif sick.gif later today at my aunt's home.
*



Joy oh joy

My aunt's laptop (I'm using it now) belongs to her employer and she doesn't have an administrator account. Sure enough, it doesn't come with Java, and I can't install it without admin rights, so I can't decrypt results (not to talk about installing Python for results parsing) headbang.gif

Please don't hate me, I will really find some way crying.gif

Her desktop, which comes with Win98 (no user rights issues) is on maintenance right now, but I suspect the technician is fooling her ("We need to reinstall the internet, lady", I swear that's what they told her), so she'll bring it back tomorrow and I'll try to fix it myself. I bet a format-reinstall will do it.

Best regards;

Roberto.
rjamorim
QUOTE(Mac @ Jul 13 2004, 06:57 PM)
If I open an existing session, everything breaks (no sound, trouble rendering the screen) - but if I start the test again, it appears to work normally.
*



I get that same screen rendering error. Often participants send me saved sessions (*.abc) instead of results (*.erf) and I have to convert them manually. Not once the sliders get rendered properly.

And I always forget to report this to Schnofler :B
guruboolez
Are there more results as usual (according to a first impression)? More testers for a less difficult test, or not?
ff123
QUOTE(rjamorim @ Jul 13 2004, 04:41 PM)
Joy oh joy

My aunt's laptop (I'm using it now) belongs to her employer and she doesn't have an administrator account. Sure enough, it doesn't come with Java, and I can't install it without admin rights, so I can't decrypt results (not to talk about installing Python for results parsing)  headbang.gif

Please don't hate me, I will really find some way  crying.gif

Her desktop, which comes with Win98 (no user rights issues) is on maintenance right now, but I suspect the technician is fooling her ("We need to reinstall the internet, lady", I swear that's what they told her), so she'll bring it back tomorrow and I'll try to fix it myself. I bet a format-reinstall will do it.

Best regards;

Roberto.
*



I think you can set up Win98 to not ask for userids/passwords, if that is the issue.

http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=152104

When I used Win98, there was no problem installing programs as a idless/passwordless user.

ff123

d'oh: I see now that you're talking about two different computers. Never mind smile.gif
rjamorim
QUOTE(guruboolez @ Jul 13 2004, 10:12 PM)
Are there more results as usual (according to a first impression)? More testers for a less difficult test, or not?
*



Yes. Shitloads of results. Last thursday I had about 40 results per sample, and countless more arrived this weekend. smile.gif

(Also, a handful of ranked references, but... oh well biggrin.gif)

QUOTE(ff123 @ Jul 13 2004, 10:17 PM)
I think you can set up Win98 to not ask for userids/passwords, if that is the issue.

http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=152104

When I used Win98, there was no problem installing programs as a idless/passwordless user.

ff123
*



The desktop, which is supposedly broken, is using Win98. The laptop I'm using right now is on Win2000. I could probably do some evil hacking to get admin access, but then my aunt could get problems if the technician at her work finds out.
guruboolez
QUOTE(rjamorim @ Jul 14 2004, 02:22 AM)
40 results per sample, and countless more arrived this weekend. smile.gif
*



ohmy.gif Good news!
glistener
QUOTE(rjamorim @ Jul 14 2004, 03:22 AM)
The desktop, which is supposedly broken, is using Win98. The laptop I'm using right now is on Win2000. I could probably do some evil hacking to get admin access, but then my aunt could get problems if the technician at her work finds out.
*

Maybe a LiveCD, e.g. Knoppix is an option?
bleh
Wow, this could turn out to be a really good test with that many results. Sorry about the computer situation, though sad.gif
vinnie97
QUOTE
(Also, a handful of ranked references, but... oh well biggrin.gif)


Please tell me I'm not one of them. My hearing condition is well and truly a lost cause if that is the case. blink.gif
robUx4
Maybe you could ask Frank Klemm to use his PC wink.gif
Tang
QUOTE(guruboolez @ Jul 13 2004, 05:12 PM)
Are there more results as usual (according to a first impression)? More testers for a less difficult test, or not?
*


I think so...as even myself has done the test (for one sample)...
unsure.gif
wink.gif
Tang
QUOTE(robUx4 @ Jul 13 2004, 11:55 PM)
Maybe you could ask Frank Klemm to use his PC  wink.gif
*


I can come with my laptop if Roberto pay the travel to Brasil...
laugh.gif
rjamorim
QUOTE(glistener @ Jul 13 2004, 10:59 PM)
Maybe a LiveCD, e.g. Knoppix is an option?
*


I'm on dial-up here. I would be back home before the live CD finished downloading.

Besides, no CD-RW drive here.

QUOTE(vinnie97 @ Jul 14 2004, 03:19 AM)
Please tell me I'm not one of them. My hearing condition is well and truly a lost cause if that is the case. blink.gif
*


I don't think so. I will probably remove the ranked references from the results I'll upload, to make sure mean people won't point at others and laugh wink.gif


Now, I am finally using the Win98 PC. Itīs a slightly crappy Pentium 700 with small screen, but will probably do. I'll download all stuff I need overnight (Java, Python, SFTP and SSH client...), and I plan to finish putting results together tomorrow. I hope my 9-year-old cousin won't force me to go to the movies with her to watch Disney's latest dry.gif

Talk to you soon.

Best regards;

Roberto.
glistener
QUOTE(rjamorim @ Jul 15 2004, 05:25 AM)
I'm on dial-up here. I would be back home before the live CD finished downloading.

Besides, no CD-RW drive here.

You leave your home without a Knoppix CD in your bag?!? You're definitely not a nerd. wink.gif

QUOTE(rjamorim @ Jul 15 2004, 05:25 AM)
I don't think so. I will probably remove the ranked references from the results I'll upload, to make sure mean people won't point at others and laugh wink.gif

Just throw them away? Aren't the ranked references somehow significant too? I wonder, if somebody ranked a reference doesn't that mean that for him that encoder performs very well? (Well, as long as he doesn't rank the reference to very low values...)

QUOTE(rjamorim @ Jul 15 2004, 05:25 AM)
and I plan to finish putting results together tomorrow.
*


Cool. Thanks a lot. smile.gif
SirGrey
QUOTE
I don't think so. I will probably remove the ranked references from the results I'll upload, to make sure mean people won't point at others and laugh

Heh. smile.gif But it would be interesting for the rank owner to know he has mistaken...
At least I'm interested to know it for my result set...
Gabriel
Roberto, you could also wait to be back to your home before processing the results.

You know, the earth will not stop its rotation if you only post results next week...
robUx4
QUOTE(Gabriel @ Jul 15 2004, 09:12 AM)
Roberto, you could also wait to be back to your home before processing the results.

You know, the earth will not stop its rotation if you only post results next week...
*



Can you prove that ?
biggrin.gif
Mac
At least the delay has provided me enough time to complete the test, and hopefully other people have been able to add their results to the list smile.gif

I look forward to seeing the smallest confidence intervals the world has ever seen wink.gif
sehested
QUOTE(Gabriel @ Jul 15 2004, 12:12 AM)
Roberto, you could also wait to be back to your home before processing the results.

You know, the earth will not stop its rotation if you only post results next week...
*




As Gabriel says, take it easy and enjoy your family gettogether. laugh.gif

You have nothing to excuse - on the contrary many people are thankful for the professional way you handle the listening tests. tongue.gif

I'm impressed with your communication skills and the way you manage to obtain near consensus through fact based dialogue, regarding codecs, settings and samples for the listening tests. smile.gif

The world will be as happy a place to live in and I will still admire you the same, even if I don't get the results of the listening test until later. laugh.gif

Enjoy your life... cool.gif
fileman
Full ack!
rjamorim
QUOTE(glistener @ Jul 15 2004, 12:50 AM)
Just throw them away? Aren't the ranked references somehow significant too? I wonder, if somebody ranked a reference doesn't that mean that for him that encoder performs very well? (Well, as long as he doesn't rank the reference to very low values...)
*


If somebody ranked the reference, it might also mean he randomly moved sliders up and down. :/

So, to be on the safe side, I discard all results with ranked references that haven't been ABXd to a confidence of 0.05 (chunky makes it very easy to discard such result files. I can't thank Phong enough for his creation).


Thank-you very much for the words of encouragement, guys.
JohnV
According to the presentation page, only Vorbis got the special SSRC resampling. If so, was it checked and how and by who, that the other codecs using 32khz sampling didnt have resampling induced quality drop (like vanilla Vorbis) ?
Gabriel
QUOTE
Full ack!


Anyone noticed what you get when inverting end of both words?
Reading quickly, I get this one inverted. The meaning is then completely different.
rjamorim
QUOTE(JohnV @ Jul 15 2004, 11:56 AM)
According to the presentation page, only Vorbis got the special SSRC resampling. If so, was it checked and how and by who, that the other codecs using 32khz sampling didnt have resampling induced quality drop (like vanilla Vorbis) ?
*



Nobody showed up to test the other codecs. I am grateful (and the vorbis people should also be) to dev0 for checking it out.

QUOTE
Anyone noticed what you get when inverting end of both words?
Reading quickly, I get this one inverted. The meaning is then completely different.


laugh.gif laugh.gif
JohnV
QUOTE(rjamorim @ Jul 15 2004, 05:58 PM)
QUOTE(JohnV @ Jul 15 2004, 11:56 AM)
According to the presentation page, only Vorbis got the special SSRC resampling. If so, was it checked and how and by who, that the other codecs using 32khz sampling didnt have resampling induced quality drop (like vanilla Vorbis) ?
*



Nobody showed up to test the other codecs. I am grateful (and the vorbis people should also be) to dev0 for checking it out.

Right. Imo then the correct procedure would have been to use SSRC for all the resamplings, or not use it at all. Now only one codec got the benefit just because someone happened to test it for Vorbis.
rjamorim
QUOTE(JohnV @ Jul 15 2004, 12:02 PM)
Right. Imo then the correct procedure would have been to use SSRC for all the resamplings, or not use it at all. Now only one codec got the benefit just because someone happened to test it for Vorbis.
*



As I remember it, you mentioned SSRC resampling needed to be supported in a streaming software to make it's usage meaningful for this test.

dev0 found out it can be done for Vorbis with fb2k. It can't be done for WMA std and QDesign because neither windows media server nor Darwin streaming server use or support SSRC. Shoutcast (probably the most popular MP3 streamer, based on Lame) doesn't use SSRC either. Same thing about Real Broadcaster.

So there.
JohnV
QUOTE(rjamorim @ Jul 15 2004, 06:12 PM)
QUOTE(JohnV @ Jul 15 2004, 12:02 PM)
Right. Imo then the correct procedure would have been to use SSRC for all the resamplings, or not use it at all. Now only one codec got the benefit just because someone happened to test it for Vorbis.
*



As I remember it, you mentioned SSRC resampling needed to be supported in a streaming software to make it's usage meaningful for this test.
So there.
*


I said, at least, being a reason in order to justify the use of 3rd party component somehow. Before the test I privately said to you the same as here that all resampling should be done with SSRC or none at all. You said you can't consider any of my suggestions anymore because I'm too biased against Vorbis.
IIRC you also said that streaming server use isn't the point of this test, rather how the codec can do in best circumstances. Non-live streaming is perfectly possible for all codecs with SSRC.
Since the other codecs using resampling didnt get tested or treated equally to Vorbis, we can only hope that there's no resampling issues which would affect the results negatively for the other codecs.
robUx4
QUOTE(Gabriel @ Jul 15 2004, 03:58 PM)
QUOTE
Full ack!


Anyone noticed what you get when inverting end of both words?
Reading quickly, I get this one inverted. The meaning is then completely different.
*



That's exactly what I read first !
rolleyes.gif
laugh.gif
robUx4
QUOTE(JohnV @ Jul 15 2004, 04:17 PM)
Since the other codecs using resampling didnt get tested or treated equally to Vorbis, we can only hope that there's no resampling issues which would affect the results negatively for the other codecs.
*



If Vorbis performs bad, nobody will care about it. If it comes first, for sure it's an issue !
rjamorim
QUOTE(JohnV @ Jul 15 2004, 12:17 PM)
IIRC you also said that streaming server use isn't the point of this test, rather how the codec can do in best circumstances. Non-live streaming is perfectly possible for all codecs with SSRC.
*



True. But you gotta consider that I'm only one person that doesn't do listening tests himself and, particularly on this test, was on a limited time frame. In this aspect, Vorbis can be considered lucky that it had an enthusiatic individual that looked into this issue and found a solution. Unfortunately, WMA, Real and QDesign didn't have anyone to look out for them.

It's similar to the issue with the iTunes MP3 encoder in the MP3 listening test. There has been lots of speculation about iTunes maybe being better in CBR at 128kbps, but noone took the initiative to test VBR vs. CBR while the test was being discussed.

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....ndpost&p=181882
JohnV
QUOTE(rjamorim @ Jul 15 2004, 07:53 PM)
QUOTE(JohnV @ Jul 15 2004, 12:17 PM)
IIRC you also said that streaming server use isn't the point of this test, rather how the codec can do in best circumstances. Non-live streaming is perfectly possible for all codecs with SSRC.
*


It's similar to the issue with the iTunes MP3 encoder in the MP3 listening test. There has been lots of speculation about iTunes maybe being better in CBR at 128kbps, but noone took the initiative to test VBR vs. CBR while the test was being discussed.
*


Imo it was not similar. In your example it was about internal encoding setting. In resampling issue it was about the use of external 3rd party component which is possible to use for all resampled codecs.
Mac
I thought this had been discussed into the ground a couple of pages ago?

Vorbis was the only encoder that was shown to have issues with its internal resampler, so there should be no need to use SSRC with the other codecs in the test.
JohnV
QUOTE(Mac @ Jul 15 2004, 08:11 PM)
I thought this had been discussed into the ground a couple of pages ago?

Vorbis was the only encoder that was shown to have issues with its internal resampler, so there should be no need to use SSRC with the other codecs in the test.
*


Eh, how do you know if there was need or not if it was not tested!
It is perfectly possible that this issue is a non-issue, but without testing we simply don't know, thus if not tested, we should treat the codecs equally. This is my opinion.
So, even if this resampling issue turned out to be irrelevant regarding the other codecs, this imo shows somewhat questionable testing practice, especially considering that there is a 3rd party component involved.
elmar3rd
Ogg Vorbis is quite new, open source and it's development is in progress.
I understood the SSRC issue always in such a way, that for this test, Ogg Vorbis samples were prepared, that show the potential at 32 kbps in comparison to established codecs.
That's quite fair for a codec in development.
JohnV
QUOTE(elmar3rd @ Jul 15 2004, 08:17 PM)
Ogg Vorbis is quite new, open source and it's development is in progress.
I understood the SSRC issue always in such a way, that for this test, Ogg Vorbis samples were prepared, that show the potential at 32 kbps in comparison to established codecs.
That's quite fair for a codec in development.
*


If you ask from Monty, he will tell you that Vorbis is about 10 years old project of his.
maikmerten
QUOTE(elmar3rd @ Jul 15 2004, 05:17 PM)
That's quite fair for a codec in development.
*



Ogg Vorbis is not the only codec thatīs in development.
Big_Berny
I was away (holiday) the last weeks. And now I would like to make the test, too. But in the first posting you write that the test is scheduled to end at July 11th but the title says "OPEN".

So is the test open or closed already?

Thanx
Big_Berny
rjamorim
QUOTE(Big_Berny @ Jul 15 2004, 03:22 PM)
I was away (holiday) the last weeks. And now I would like to make the test, too. But in the first posting you write that the test is scheduled to end at July 11th but the title says "OPEN".

So is the test open or closed already?

Thanx
Big_Berny
*



I plan to start calculating results this afternoon, so yes, you can pretty safely consider it closed :/
Big_Berny
QUOTE(rjamorim @ Jul 15 2004, 10:32 AM)
I plan to start calculating results this afternoon, so yes, you can pretty safely consider it closed :/
*



Wll, that's bad news... Sorry, that I couldn't do the test. I hope you have enough results!

Big_Berny
Tang
Still no results? huh.gif
ep0ch
rjamorim you're being very quiet, you OK? or have you gone into shock cos of the results?
Mac
QUOTE(ep0ch @ Jul 21 2004, 05:31 PM)
rjamorim you're being very quiet, you OK? or have you gone into shock cos of the results?
*


Too much wine at the family parties? smile.gif
rp552
erhm... i know 56k is slow, but shouldn't the results be in by now? huh.gif

anyway looking forward to the results, thanks for the effort. biggrin.gif
vinnie97
Hope everything's OK. ohmy.gif
rp552
me too, the suspense is killing me blink.gif
rpop
Off-topic posts split here.
glistener
Hey, what happened to rjamorim? Now, even his website http://www.rjamorim.com/ is down. sad.gif

EDIT: His site is online again smile.gif
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2008 Invision Power Services, Inc.