Seems the 4th gen iPods will debut Monday July 19th..

Mag Cover


20 & 40 GB for $299 and $399 respectively.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5457434/site/newsweek/

Click Wheel
12-hour playtime
Multiple on-the-go Playlists
Delete songs from OTG Playlists
Audiobook tempo adjustment
No more 15 gig model
$100 Cheaper

Yeah, given Apple's exagerated battery capacity in the past, I wouldn't be surprised if the 4th generation version lasts only 20 - 30% longer than the 3rd gen model, rather than the claimed 50%. But it will be interesting to see what happens when the review sites start testing them. I'm sure some sites like ipoding.com or ipodlounge will try and do accurate tests of battery capacity.

Personally the US$100 price reduction is the best 'feature' enhancement. Hopefully that means that now the 40 GB model will be available for around AUD$600 which is much more reasonable than AUD$800. It means that assuming it doesn't have any major flaws, a 4th generation 40GB iPod will be on my wish list for Christmas ;-)

In the Newsweek article, it mentions the longer battery life as being a result of more efficient energy-saving features, not a new, higher-capacity battery. Apple's quoted battery life of 8 hours for the 3rd gen model never held true for me, since that figure represents continuous play (i.e., no changing songs manually, using the backlight, or touching the controls). Thus, I'd be interested to see how the new model holds up under "normal" use....if one changes songs frequently, turns on the backlight for a few seconds, or plays with the volume, do these "energy saving" features become moot?

I almost purchased a 20GB third-generation iPod yesterday.

No I am going to wait for this.

I really hope the new supposed battery life holds true. And thet there isn't anything broken on the new generation. And that they remain as good looking as always

Even with a $100 price drop, they are still bloody expensive.

I'll agree to spend $400 on an hifi audio component, but that's just too much for a portable device that may have a usable lifespan of 3-4 years. I am the type of person who really should have an iPod, but I've drawn the line in the sand because I'm simply cautious with my money.

I disagree, but only on general principles. For you your statement may be true, but if I didn't already have a 3rd gen iPod I'd buy the 4th gen model because I use mine all the time (well not quite, but getting there.)

There are many reasons to buy an iPod...and many reasons not to... and they vary heavily from person to person.

I agree that $300-$400 is a lot of money, however, if it was too much to be asking of the iPod then nobody would be buying it. However, millions of people are getting iPods so obviously are willing to shell out the money for one. There are cheaper portables out there and now that Apple has lowered the prices on the iPod that should force its competitors to lower their prices even more. Watch the next Rio Karma be around $200 to compete with the iPod.

The 4th gen iPod doesn't really look like a major improvement over the 3rd gen. They added some of the functionality of the iPod mini and 4 more hours of battery life mixed with a few minor features built into the player. I own a 3rd gen 20GB iPod and I don't see myself upgrading to the 4th gen unless my iPod dies and I get a 4th gen for free at Circuit City.

I just hope it's more scratch resistant than the 3rd gens. The mini is great in this regard, but the magazine picture seems to show that the 4th gen models retain the shiny, scratch-prone exterior.

I strongly disagree. Because the HDD/MP3 player market (the MP3 market, if you ask me) is still in its infancy, people really don't have any clue that there are other options on the market, let alone better, cheaper ones.

How about "better looking"? Or "easy to use"?

The iPod, besides having "first-born advantage" is also one of the most beautiful pieces of electronics ever built (Apple has had that advantage for some time now) and it is also very easy to use, both in itself and when connected to a computer.

There might be better stuff out there, but I think these are the two points companies making HD-based MP3/AAC players out there should adress first, even before price.

I have a 2nd Generation 20G iPod that I use every day. I listen to it at work. I listen to it while I work out at the gym. It is awesome. I realize that some folks balk at the price. I bought my iPod on ebay when the 3rd Generation came out. I have been extremely happy with my purchase. In fact, I got my wife a mini-ipod as well.

Sean

Looks good. I especially like the slightly longer battery life, which was one of the complaints I've read about it. They don't have the 15 GB version anymore. Hopefully the 20 GB isn't too expensive...I wonder what's the educational price. The 15 GB was AUD$403

What I'm especially hoping for with this new iPod range, is that something has been done about the distortion issue to the playback of 320 kbps CBR and -B 320 VBR MP3s. Which is the major downside to the iPod, in my view.

I prefer the iPod mini, fits in your pocket easier as is about half the height of an iPod. Plus it can charge from USB (iPod only from firewire), this means going on holiday with a laptop means just 1 usb cable (no charger).

Its weird, i just dont listen to music like this. I cant stand the sound from in ear phones - yes decent ones. (or even having them in my ears), and im not going to stick my huge sennheisers on to go for a run, not really portable. Plus I find ipods in particular way over priced. If it had a digital out id consider it - the iriver ihp-140 makes more sense to me.

I think most energy saving will come from its new processor, dsp chip, new harddrive and electrical design. I'm not sure that they use the same processor as the mini or even the newer one. I've read somewhere the current drain of the mni is significantly less than the 3rd gen (on both playback from buffer and during disk access).

If the Australian prices for the 4G models remain equated with the US prices for 3G models, then it looks like the education price for the 40GB 4G model will be AUD$540, which to me is much more reasonable than the $720 it is currently (only $79 saving over standard retail price). However who knows what the pricing structure will be. I reckon the AUD$399 asking price for the iPod mini is rather unrealistic. However I understand that people who get one are paying extra for the small size.

I agree that it is a concern that it has playback issues on high bit rate MP3, and you'd like to think that it is something that would be of high concern to the firmware developers. However, it is my intention to get a 40 GB model and then to use a medium bitrate AAC setting in iTunes, say around 160K for most of my files, maybe a bit higher on albums I know that will be hard to compress. My only great wish now is for a new version of iTunes with a nicely tuned VBR version of the AAC encoder. By looks of it that isn't going to be too far off given the recent new beta of OSX.

I am in process of re-ripping all my CDs to FLAC. I have done most of my absolute favourites first. But in order to do my whole collection I need to invest in a new 200 GB hard disc first :-) I guess the next step is to find a simple method for going from FLAC to iTunes AAC, whilst retaining all tags etc.

Edit: typos

That sounds pretty neat... but now I have to justify buying it. Any ideas?

Cool. What do you think about the 20 GB 4G iPod? That's the one I'm considering as it is replacing the 15 GB?

Does any user here know if it's possible to plug on one both a PC and a Mac you own ? I fear I could only use it with one or the other but not both computers...

Are there people working on an alternative firmware that would support other codec/containers ? (Vorbis, WavPack to name the ones I want)

(off topic)


EAC 2 FLAC and AAC simultaneously: Mareo.
FLAC 2 AAC: Speek's Multi frontend.

FrEaKy! I went back to the Apple Education store that I can access (For Flinders University S.A.) and it is now showing only two models, the 20 GB, and the 40 GB. Within the space of 3 hours or so the 15 GB model has been removed! Sadly the price is not quite as good as what I hoped, it is $584.10 for the 40 GB model (I speculated it would be $540), and $448.80 for the 20 GB model. It does not state that these are prices for the 4G models, instead it says "w/click wheel". I should point out that it only says the dock is included for the 40 GB model, NOT the 20 GB model, that may simply be wrong, I'm sure more info will come to light in the next few days. Neither models state that they come with a remote. I would've hoped the 40 GB version at least would come with the remote.

All prices are AUD$.

Apple Store lists the new 20GB iPod's without a dock too. The dock is only included with the 40GB version it seems.

IMO, style is the only thing the iPod has going for it. Other players (e.g. Rio Karma) offer things like better battery life, gapless playback, more format support, linux support, etc. Unfortunately, the media (and the public I guess) are infatuated with the iPod without even realizing there are alternatives, let alone that the alternatives are better.

Steve Jobs could take a dump in an attractive acrylic box and there would be Apple fanboys lined up to buy it.

Looks like neither of them come with the inline remote, must be purchased extra, meaning you end up with a 2nd set of headphones.

The Rio Karma has gapless MP3 playback?

Hmm, I could pick one up on Amazon for 200 dollars (they gave me a 50 dollar coupon).

And what about HD integrity? Any major flaws I should know about?

Yes, it's true, the Karma reads lame tags to play mp3s gaplessly if they are present (I've tested this myself). If they aren't, it usually can figurwe it out anyway. Of course, it also supports truly gapless formats like vorbis and flac, so that's an option as well.

You've hit on the biggest drawback of the Karama. Hard drive failure rates are higher than other HD based players, but problems are still pretty rare. The actual cause of the problem is not completely known but seems to be a bug in the hard drive's firmware (not the Karma firmware), that causes the heads not to be parked under very particular circumstances. The hard drive isn't able to spin up properly after that happens because of stiction. Many people have "fixed" a locked up unit by giving it a solid "thwack" to dislodge the heads, after which the player operates normally. The mfg. warranty is only 90 days, so if the retailer has an option for an extended warranty, I'd recommend it. At one point the Rio RMA department had a really slow turnaround, but apparently that's been resolved.

Right now, my biggest gripe is a very minor one. The Java software for the Karma (which you need to use if you're not running Windows) only works over the Karama's ethernet connection, not USB. On the other hand, if I had some other player, I probably wouldn't have Linux support at all.

I just checked the Education store too (for Griffith University, QLD) and I think I know why the 20 GB is a tad more expensive....it comes with the USB 2.0 cable. That's worth AUD$34 before so I think that's the extra cost. But that's good since having USB 2.0, this iPod can truly be a portable HD (I dont know many desktops here that have firewire).

phong,

You forgot to mention some important iPod's advantages: its sync software (iTunes) and AAC support.

Majority of portable users don't care about number of format support, gapless or not, all they care is style, good enough audio quality, ease of use and coolness factor.

I think iPod win on most aspects listed above. Rio Karma might be better in other aspects but only the minorities care.

AFAIK the iPod is not seen as a HD by the host computer. That's a major drawback IMO, even though I imagine there are hacks available (that you'd have to install everytime you plug it on a new computer). So for me it's still not the perfect player (USB HD, HE-AAC, MP3, Wavpack, record, 40GB, USB On The Go)...

Sorry, but a removable HD is exactly what the iPod appears to the PC as. iTunes can be set to quickly connect, auto-sync, and then eject the iPod but you can easily change one dialog in the settings which allows you to use the iPod as a portable HD as long as your willing to put up with hitting the eject button in iTunes (or using the remove hardware feature in windows).

And BTW no extra drivers are needed to connect the iPod to a Win 2000/XP machine.

Doesn't the Karma support ogg? and didn't ogg beat AAC in a recent listening test?



I think the problem is more to do with the short warranty on the Karma - I suspect the failure rates are the same for Hard disk players (after all they all use the same 2 brands of mini hard disk).

Didn't know that. If that's true, that's one good step (still not enough for me).

Not, Matroska beats OGG in all test

Vorbis is quite equivalent to AAC. the difference is not vital. But HE-AAC is really good but lacks support (like Vorbis).

Note: I do not have a iPod myself (yet: about to order one of the new 4Gs)
People are having success in using the iPod on a PC and Mac as long as it has been formatted on a PC, and ONLY if it has been formatted on a PC.
If you format it on a Mac then you have to use the 'restore' function when you connect it to a PC (ie. reformat it using fat32).
This is what I've read about, can not confirm this works.

But comparing iPod users to iRiver hp120.... my impression is that alot of the iRiver people LOVE it at start, but reviews by users that have had it for a while are not as grand, issues with playlists, songs don't show up if they contain non-english characters, slow browsing, cumbersome browsing, etc.
Compare that to iPod user reviews new and old.... hehe well can't find much really, low battery (improved in 4g) and no Radio but other than that mostly just lots of peace and love. FM tuner is what IMO is lacking the most.

Btw, for those interested, the cost has been cut by $100, but if you look closer there are some differences:
The 'new' 20gig does NOT come with a Dock.
... and something else sry... read fine print

edit: made the quote box a bit smaller

The lowest cost iPod has never come with the dock etc., so this is nothing new. Just like the 15, 10 and 5 gig models before this one.

My biggest disappointment is that there's still no gapless playback. Do they really believe all that propaganda about how "iPod has changed how people listen to music"? Hell, people still listen to live and mixed albums!

Yep it's kind of rubbish that the new 4G iPods don't come with either the remote or carry case and only the 40GB model comes with the dock. If you were to buy all these seperatly it would cost you $117. This must be how they managed to "cut" the prices, throw out all the previously included accessories.

Then again if I was buying a new iPod I wouldn't buy the remote or the Apple case, instead I would get an iSkin (once they come out for the 4G models), an iTrip and possibly a dock if I wanted the line out connection.

Any idea if gapless playback could be made possible by a software (firmware) upgrade? Or is it a hardware issue?

I agree the Rio Karma is very nice player. However I need a 40 GB player. Hopefully the Karma 2 comes in 20 GB and 40 GB capacities. So that it is in direct competition with Apple. However, apparently early reports of the Karma 2 say it is going to be smaller than the current Karma, so I don't know how it can be both smaller, and a 40 GB player.

Plus the iPod's support for LC-AAC is a plus. Rio's support for Vorbis is to be commended though. Ideally I will get a player that can hold all of my CDs, to do this I need great sounding files around 160K, so Vorbis, or AAC will be good at this, with the edge probably going to AAC.

I don't have any hard facts on this, but since they implemented Apple Lossless just with a firmware upgrade, I don't see why things like this wouldn't work out as well if they just had the incentive to do so. In the case of Lossless, they had the incentive - they sell Lossless packed files through ITMS.

Knowing Apple, however.... I doubt we'll ever see gapless for old iPods. I bet it's going to be introduced at a generation jump, perhaps the next one. Just like things like on-the-go playlists would have been possible, but were never retrofitted to the 1/2G firmware.

Actually, can even iTunes play mp3's gapless?

Quicktime AAC is the only CBR CODEC (I know it's more like ABR in AAC) in the test, and it compete surprisingly well with other the VBR CODECs at such low bitrate (I consider 128kbps a low range for stereo music).

No.


Yeah. Sad but true...but when the format support allows for extra player functionality vs. less support then it's better.


I own a Rio Karma. My main beef with Apple's Ipod is their lack of proper album playback. If they would impliment gapless then I'd probably own one. The Karma does this and much more and probably the better player hands down in the end.

Actually, iTunes does have a feature which may result in something similiar to what you are looking for in it's crossfade feature. What exactly do you mean by gapless and reproducing the album effect?

Ive been having problems with my 20gb 3g one, i might take it to apple store and see if they will replace it with the 4g one..its worth a try lol

What he means is that on the tracks on albums that do not have gaps between them, the iPod cannot currently play them correctly. Therefore, the iPod cannot reproduce the full "album effect".

Gapless is much more than just playing song with no silence between them (like you can do with a crossfader). "True gapless" is the ability of a codec to somehow retain/register the actual length of a music sample. This is very important to retain the "effect" on some albums where all the tracks are made to be played uninterrupted, like a live album, of a Pink Floyd album. There are also albums that are designed to have some tracks play like that and others with silences between them. A good example of this is The Beatles' "Abbey Road".

"Reproducing the album's effect" is nothing but to be able to listen to the album the closest one can to what the artist wanted to achieve.

Why don't you ask them to make your 20GB iPod work instead?

Why would you want to lose 16 gigabytes of music?

See the problem is, when im walking with it and playing some music, it will suddenly stop playing for no reason, and when i take it out of my pocket, it will show the battery indicator thing spent all the way, even if ive only used it for like 15-30 mins. If i leave it alone for 2-3 minutes "magically" the battery comes back, anyway, i dont think this is acceptable performance for a $400 mp3 player (i dont know if you would), and want to see if this problem has been eliminated on the 4g ipod, also, i have all my music backed up (who wouldn't?)