Hi,

I am currently shopping for some decent speakers for my PC. Since all I am interested in is listening to music, I don't care for surround stuff. So it has to be a stereo set. Right now I am wondering if a subwoofer is really necessary. I want as good sound as possible throughout the complete frequency range but I don't want sheer loudness, power, rattling windows and pissed off neighbors. Absolutely not. I am more interested in musical, dynamic and natural recreation of my sound source (mainly high quality AAC, MP3 and CDs). High Fidelity.

So the question is, do I invest my money in very good 2.0 speakers (studio monitors or something like the Swans multimedia sets) or in a 2.1 set, that comes with a subwoofer, but usually at the cost of reduced quality in the satelites and the woofer itself, often some sort of crossover problems etc. I say it again: I am not interested in the mega-boom that shakes my bones but I still want a dynamic and good bass recreation.

Opinions? Subwoofer really necessary if you have a good 2.0 set that does good bass reproduction? Any recommendations on a specific set? Oh... I think it's needless to say the set has to be self-powered but I mention it anyway

Thanks,
Sascha

Checked the swans multimedia stuff and the look and specs indicate they'd benefit from a sub. There are studio monitors that give pretty good bass response. Lots that you could try. Mine are mini monitors from Paradigm that go lower and give great bass sound, but only partly capture the feel of the low bass. I don't feel any need for a sub. As you go up the series you get more accomplishment there.
http://www.paradigm.ca/Website/SiteParadig...onitorSpecs.htm

A good sub from a company like, say, Dynaudio is never wrong.
BUT, this puts enormous stress on the acoustical properties of you listening room and you'd need to adjust this massively in any case.

However with a decent pair of monitors there is often little need for extra low output monitors such as a sub.

A good subwoofer will enhance any system. Even B&W nautilus 801's are configured with a subwoofer sometimes to add lowest extension.

Small speakers cannot produce the lowest octave d/t doubling. It's simple physics.

But based on what you said, I think its better to get the better quality 2.0 speakers first.

You can always add a sub later and have better quality overall.

Speakers are the last place you should skimp on,ever.

...and be aware that most computer "subwoofers" are not really subwoofers, they're low channel effect (LFE) speakers and are not intended to provide a smooth bass extension to your main speakers, but rather to provide punch to explosions and other special effect sounds.

Subs are rarely(if ever) used in near-field applications.There are 2 acoustic properties your may have to consider
1) the bass lifts the closer you are to the speaker
2) 'home speakers' are usually designed for half-space or quarter-space, Near-fields are full-space designs.
Home speaker specs are usually have quoted frequency response at specific a distance e.g 3m
For critical listening you may have to consider Near-field Monitors. These speakers are usually intended for Speaker to Listener distance of 2m or less. It sounds like you are entering the realm of Recording Studios.

Have a look at the Self-powered Genelac Monitors if you are after 'ready-mades'.
IMHO Distortion and Imaging is a bigger problem then LF extension.

I've never seen a set of "multimedia" speakers that I would consider to have good bass reproduction... of course I haven't listened to everything on the market, so they very well could exist.

I've often heard people say how good their monitor's bass response was, but often times they haven't actually heard them paired with a good subwoofer. If you really want to know whether or not your speakers give the desired base response, listen to them with a subwoofer first, and then listen again without. Of course finding a good listening enviorment, with properly matched equipment isn't as accessible as one might like, especially in the retail space.

At any rate is all boils down to personal choice, not to mention $$$.

-----
Domain

thanks guys.

one thing I might add: My place here has limited space in the z-axis, e. g. I am sitting at a desk in front of a wall. From my ears to the wall it is roughly a little bit over 3 feet. taking this into account, I think it rules out a lot of speakers/monitors because I would simply be too close to them. right? or wrong? I once asked the m-audio people how far I would have to get away from their LX4 or BX5 and they said "at least 1.5 meters" which is about 5 feet. If this is right, wouldn't that narrow my options down to a pair of decent PC-multimedia speakers like klipsch promedia or altec lansing?

sascha

There are very few decent small powered speakers on the market, I've never personally heard the swans but they do look like they are built with a degree of quality. If you like the way they sound, go with them.

You mention you are "interested in musical, dynamic and natural recreation of my sound source". In this case I can't honestly recoment any 'multimedia' or computer speakers. Even the better ones are ill-suited for music. Personally, if I were in your situation I would hunt down (on ebay, garage sale, classifieds) an older 2 channel (or prologic) receiver and invest in a small set of monitors. Although 3 feet from your listening position is not ideal, but; a good set of bookshelfs will still make up the difference over a multimedia speaker...and all said it should cost about the same or less as the swans.

Couple of exceptional low cost bookshelfs:
Paradigm Atom - http://www.paradigm.com/Website/SiteParadi...rmanceSpecs.htm
PSB Alpha - http://www.psbspeakers.com/s/newAlphaSeries.html#alphaB

Although there are others. The advantage of using these is that apart from not so good low frequency sound pressure levels...you'd be extremely hard pressed to hear any difference between these and speakers which cost 4x as much in the rest of the sound spectrum. And if you ever quit needing them for your computer, they'd work fine in a normal listening room (which multimedia speakers will not).

As for a subwoofer. Leave this be until you can afford to add a decent one later. There is simply no subwoofer on the market in your pricerange which will provide smooth natural response. As indicated above, all PC 'subwoofers' are tuned for an extremely narrow frequency band to provide effects only, they are all horrible for music.

Another option would be to use a mini-system... but my experience with these lately (family member bought a sony minisystem recently) has been less than spectacular. It's included subwoofer has 3 options: +24db over the rest of the music, +30 db or +50 db (or so it seems)...so that it's basically at it's powerhandling limit with the volume set at 3 of 20 or so. Seems they use extremely high bass levels at low volume levels to trick the average buyer into thinking it sounds 'good'... and judging by the flashy styling of competing brands I doubt they are any different than the sony one. So I have to caution going this route.

Thanks. I heard that too but I also read that there aresome exceptions to that rule. Most reviews state that the sub of the Klipsch PM2.1 is actually pretty good and I would guess the Altec LAnsing MX5021 would be too, at least that set is basically made for music listening.

Those bookshelfs you mention would of course be another option. While I don't really like the idea of having an external, full blown amp sitting on my desk, I could consider it because I have a midrage Harman/Kardon amp left over that I don't use anymore. Do you think I could get decent bookshelfs for around 200 or so that would kill the Swans soundwise?

What about the problem of placing bookshelf speakers on the desk... shouldn't speakers like these be put on stands or something? I know my Dynaudio Contour would terribly degrade if I'd put them on the desk...

Sascha

I own a set of Klipsch v.2-400 (the original multimedia set), and the Ultra 5.1 set, and while they are sufficient for sitting in front of the computer, they have a markedly different sound to my primary listening equipment.

The sub on the multimedia line is quite "boomy", the kind of thing that is more revered by people who want that thumping bass sound. Of course its really not fair to compare such a small unit to a $1000+ 12" - 15" subwoofer, but ultimately my observation is that the multimedia subs make their themselves known, while a real sub is transparent to the rest of the system... i.e. you shouldn't be able to identify the sub, or where it is located from the rest of the system.

Again though, it's all personal choice... I enjoy my Klispsch Promedia line, I think they are acceptable for what I use them for, but I also stay mindful that they are a multimedia system.

-----
Domain

Those two I pointed out should be around $200 usd... not entirely sure though. I've never heard to swans, so I really can't say for sure, they are tremendous $/value as far as speakers go. Don't forget that you'd need the magnetically shielded version though.

Putting them on a desk possibly will make the bass a bit more boomy and is likely to hurt the tweeter response a bit, but these problems are unavoidable with the multimedia speakers as well. While some of the better computer speakers may take into account the close listened position and desktop refractions these will undoubtedly take a back seat to cost and asthetic design anyway.

Another advantage your going to have with the separate receiver setup is a far higher quality amplifier. Although I am impressed by the digital input option for the swans. They do seem very well made for computer speakers. See if you can find the swans at a shop and audition them...a fair comparison won't be possible but at least you'll get an idea whether they are good enough.

A good and well tuned subwoofer will always increase the experience.

First a subwoofer can go down where speakers can’t (below 40hz). You can get the full message.
Second, it relieves the amplifier and the speakers of the more demanding area. Therefore the sound is more precise and detailed on all frequencies.

Actually, if you want to go accurately below 40hz, normal speakers with an average amplifier won’t be able to make it. The size of the speaker and the power of the amplifier needed are too high.

Anyway, as said kennedyb4, buy a decent pair of speakers first.
In order to give you a better advice, you should give us your budget.
Genelec is very accurate and is active.

After, you can buy a decent sub. Genelec subs are the best I’v heard but they are very expensive… I use Velodyne at home, not bad.

For the neighbours, according to my experience, sub basses (contrary to bass) are difficult to identify. You can’t hear where they come from and you can easily confuse them with a truck in the street or a subway (metro).

Actually my budget is not very high because I already invested enough money in my main music listening setup. I just want something to use while working with the PC. That was the reason I was looking for high-end PC speakers in the first place. That said, I would not like to spend more than ~250 euros, which is something like 300 dollars. I would appreciate if I could spend less of course.

BTW: I could get a pair of Arcus TS80 speakers that could go with the Harman/Kardon amp. If I only knew how good those Arcus speakers are. Anyone heard of them before?

Sascha

For this budget, it's another story...
Pesonnaly, I use Monsoon as PC multimedia (at girlfriend house). The sound is very precise. Each time I'm impressed by them.
They are hard to find on the market now, it seems that Monsoon Audio stopped to make multimedia speakers.
You should find some on ebay.

WARNING WILL ROBINSON!
They are not only hard to find, but there is no support, warranty or otherwise, either.

http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/produ...170/cbm170.html

Just ordered a pair of these based on good things I read here at HA some months ago. Check out the magazine review links.

Sums up exactly what I'm after too. Better quality music listening experience than PC multimedia speakers.

I listen to a lot of electronic music that features plenty of bass, so I'm assuming a subwoofer is needed. From reading through this thread I'm looking at the Genelec 1029A and Genelec 1091A Sub. Would these suit you think for trance and techno? Maybe the swans? I would still like some surround sound however. Maybe I could buy two more cheaper speakers for that?