Is anyone aware of any software that can do something similar to what a car audio device like Audio Control's Epicenter does? IIRC, this device takes the audio signal and adds more bass to it by watching the 60-120Hz region and creating what I suppose might be deemed a sub-harmonic from any of that info an octave lower in the 30-60Hz range. I believe there was at least one other device from another manufacturer that did the same thing with the 40-80Hz range and created sub-harmonics in the 20-40Hz range, but I can't recall who made that one. A good chunk of the rock I listen to could use a good dose of this treatment.

I suggest trying Waves' MaxxBASS

http://www.waves.com/htmls/prods/indi/maxbass.html

IMO, all Waves DirectX effect plugins are great.

Thanks. Not quite what I had in mind though. I don't want the impression of more bass, I actually want more bass, and it seems to me that MaxxBass isn't going to accomplish that. At least not from reading their description of their plugin. Usually playing with an EQ is enough, but for some recordings there just isn't enough data there to boost in the first place, which is why I was hoping for an Epicenter-like solution. Perhaps there's a demo for MaxxBass that I can try on some of my music and see how it does. Looks like I have to fill out some form to get to their download section, so I'll check it out tomorrow, bedtime now

This was dbx Boom Box, manufactured in the late 1970s

Enhancer for Winamp 2.x (it's not as configurable as it should be (does not have freq, dB selection), but you won't be able to get rid of it once you use it)

http://www.i-adrian.home.ro/file/dsp_enh.zip

I recommend iZotope Ozone for Winamp (also available as a DirectX plugin). Damn awesome tool to recreate vintage analog sound equipment, specifically vacuum tubes. Has a valve equalizer, room simulation, and tube amplifier, which in turn has bass compression, tube limiter, and tube saturation. The bits you'd want to look at are the equalizer and bass compression.
There's a free demo for Winamp, unfortunately you have a limited amount of presets and can't adjust the settings, but you can bypass the certain effects you don't want.

Other Winamp plugins you might want to try are Wow!thing from SRS Labs (don't know if you can still find it, but it's free), and Realizer (which creates new frequencies but can sound very artificial, but works on music missing a lot of lower frequencies).

I don't hear any bass enhancement. Lower middle frequency range is bloated, that's all.

that's what most DSP plugins do. Anything else would be inaudible with bawl cubes attached to the computers

A real subharmonic generation should be not too difficult I think

the only place I really listen to music is in my car, so I was not too concerned about my computer speakers' abilities Winamp plug-in, DirectX plug-in, whatever does the trick, it's only a midway point for the wav anyways, as it'll eventually be mp3 and into the car.

The only thing close to what you are describing AFAIK does the opposite thing: take 20-40Hz fundamentals and create / boost harmonics at higher frequencies to give impression of louder fundamental note at 20-40Hz. Since most loudspeakers (esp. teeny computer speakers) can't reproduce frequencies that low this is a useful trick. But there's no such thing as a sub-harmonic, is there? All harmonics are above the fundamental, so if you don't hear anything down there even with good speakers and a boosted bottom octave EQ, there's nothing there to start with

google subharmonic, you'll find a bunch of stuff.

rackmount device from dbx
http://www.dbxpro.com/120A.htm

but it's $300 and also physical hardware

hmm, directx plugin, wicked, demo too, gonna try it
http://www.delaydots.com/
http://www.delaydots.com/downloads/delaydots_phatprodemo.exe

only $25 too, guess I can justify that if the demo does what it says, woot

Ok, I believe ya

by the way, those are DirectX plugins... they are used in professional sound editors AFAIK. They won't work in WinAmp (i am assuming that's what you want... ?)

I remember finding a plugin for WinAmp that can use DirectX plugins, but I couldn't get it working, so don't ask me anything about it

cheers!

I have winamp 2.8 and all DirectX plugins I have worked perfectly with Adapt-X, no problems whatsoever.

Actually, I was hoping for DirectX plugins because I'd much rather do this stuff in sound forge.

as i recall from my univ. courses... a signal can be composed of a tone (representing an amplitude at basic frequency) - say A1 at F1 (A1 being the amplitude, F1 its frequency: the frequency of a tone), and harmonics: A2 at 2*F1 (an amplitude of A2 at twice the tone's frequency), A3 at 3*F1 .... A(n) at n*F1. so _Shorty, the way You think (as i understand from Your first post), the effect should be only able to reproduce signals that have not been recorded in the original material, by conceiving any A1 from knowing (guessing?) of A2, A3, ...
The psychoacoustic bass "enhancers" on the other hand, work (as Joe Bloggs said) by taking a frequency of A1 - F1, and creating distortion (non existant harmonics) at higher frequencies of 2*F1, 3*F1 ... n*F1 (or boosting existing harmonics).
So, what a "sub-harmonic" (beside a markating hype) should be? If the analyzer determines what the components (A1, F1, A2, A3... A(n) ) of a signal are, than there cannot be any components located at less than F1 (besides bias signal located at 0 Hz, that shouldn't be for itself audible)

but You should take what i write with a grain of salt (maybe 2?)

maciey, well, the idea is to synthesize a 30Hz signal if there is a 60Hz signal in the original, or 40Hz if there is 80Hz present in the original, and like that there. I'm not looking to boost something that is already there, that would simply be an equalizer. The point here is to introduce lower bass according to the mid bass that is there, to give the sound some more substance.

I can't get the demo plugin to show up in sound forge to see how well it works, argh.

this would only make sense if the recording equipment (microphones namely) used durong the recording process, were unable to record 60Hz, and 80Hz, respectively - and then and only then it would make sense - but it'd be something like SBR - a heuristic process to restore lost quality.

Wrong. This doesn't help in any way, because it's not a problem of the source signal or a electrical problem.

The problem is that the frequency response of a loudspeaker collapses below the lower frequency limit.
Frequencies 10% or 20% below this limit can't be radiated anymore. They can

- generate noise
- higher harmonics
- destory the loudspeaker

but the original signal can't be radiated. For typical 20 litres vented tubes a typical lower limit is
50...60 Hz, for 60 litres typical are values between 30 and 40 Hz. Don't talk about computer buzzers.

Best is not to generate these low frequencies, but to remove it to get clearer basses.
Electronic equalized boxes can have 30% less than the typical values above.
20 litres => 35...40 Hz and 60 litres => 20...30 Hz. Active subwoofers and active controlled loudspeakers are such devices.

I think you're missing the point entirely. The point is to duplicate any musical signals in a given frequency range, only an octave lower. I wasn't talking about only those two frequencies I gave. Think of it like taking a guitar riff and duplicating the riff on a bass guitar. One is an octave lower than the other. This type of processing would do something similar to that.

Wrong? Uh, not. I've got TONS of recordings that lack any real low bass, and this type of processing would help them immensely to sound the way I would like. Eeew, vents. My speakers are quite capable of reproducing really low frequencies, as in, 10Hz and even lower, at quite high volume.

10 Hz!!! When was last time you "heard" 10Hz?

In most classical recordings, the big drum sounds almost like a washpowder drum. But I know it is possible to reproduce it accurately - if the speakers are able to do this. In many Denon recordings the drum almost sounds like in the concert hall, including the smooth kick in your stomach.
You are right, low frequencies may destroy some speakers, especially vented constructions. The hand that turns volume and bass controls has to be controlled itself by a certain amount of reason.
If a speaker is able to reproduce 30 Hz an lower, such a processing would make sense.
Edit:
Of course the lowest added frequency must not be too much below the resonance frequency of the TL or vent

10 Hz at high volumes is almost impossible. What size and construction principle?

Yeah, I'm a bit skeptical about the 10hz at high volumes.. Bout the only way I can think of moving that much air is buying a movie theatre. And not one of those cheap 'second-run' ones either! :eek:

So basically you want to double the freqs below 120 hz or some arbitrary freq an octave lower? You can easily do that with a pitch shifter, but only if you can somehow lowpass it at your arbitrary freq starting point. It should be possible in Sound Forge. Though I'm guessing the results you get won't be all that great: the words artificially boomy and unbalanced come to mind.

The last time I played the 10Hz test signal in my car. 20Hz isn't a magical brick wall of the human ear.

I have in my car two 15" subwoofers, Kicker CompVR, in seperate sealed chambers, each with 2.5 cubic feet of air, each having at its disposal 200 watts RMS, 400 watts peak. And yes it is loud. I had a neighbour from well down the street come over and ask me what the hell I was doing when I was out there with the 10Hz test signal.

I've never heard such a low frequency in a theatre.

I've heard that a night club in germany had a soundsystem capable of playing a 11 Hz tone, and that they played with signal generators there. I think it was the Dorian Gray, in Frankfurt, at the airport. Or maybe a night club in Berlin where Delkom (Gabi Delgado+Saba Komossa) were playing. They spoke about both in that old TV program in 1993, so I don't remember which one.
They also said (of course they were bragging) that it was the only soundsystem in the world to do this.

If you really hear something it must be distortions of 3rd and 5th order caused by voicecoil leaving the homogenous magnetic field and/or diaphragm suspension leaving linear zone of elasticity.

2.5 cubic feet is approx. 22.5 liters. Much too small for a 15" speaker

Yeah, have the speakers distort and you can 'hear' 10Hz all you want.

If it's being reproduced correctly you should be really 'hearing' anything, you should be feeling some sort of earthquake instead

We tried very low high-vol frequencies on some old subwoofers sometime ago. We could also hear the 10hz, but it was rather 10hz of cracking instead of a sine wave And suddenly there were tears in the membranes too.

(kids tss tss... )

Maybe a car would be a good place to play a 10 Hz tone, since it's quite an enclosed place.
There's not even need for speakers. Go to the highway, drive around 130 km/h and open the windows wide. It should generate a strong sine around 10 Hz :insane:
I also reached around 9 Hz playing with a loop on the three heads cassette deck recording itself with the channels inverted. I could "hear" it with the old Superex proB-VI closed headphones (70mm bass + treble in the middle, filter inside the shell) plugged directly in the speaker output of the ampli and cranking up the volume to a point where my little speakers would have been endangered.

It doesn't remind me of an earthquake at all, rather the very unpleasant feeling to have the ears underwater.

you can't generalize like that, every driver is different. http://www.kicker.com/ShowPage.cfm?filenam...ml&menu=SUPPORT

<edit> and don't forget this is in a small-mid size passenger car, not a huge living room, 1990 chev cavalier

YOU CANNOT HEAR 10Hz. You can only feel it. You're eardrum would have to be huge to hear it.

hmpf, can't handle feet and toes???

Of course, 2,5 cubic feet are 4320 cubic toes or ~ 70 liters. Still a bit small, but if the cone is relatively heavy it might be OK to achive a response from 30 or 40 Hz upward.

But 10 Hz still are not audible. As the other contributors already stated, you can only feel this frequency, if it is a pure, undistorted sine wave. What you hear are distortions, rattling parts in your car, mechanic noise produced by moving parts in your inner ear.

Pio:

If it's speakers driving at 10Hz you'd feel an earthquake through your body

If it's headphones coupled to your head, it's a bit different when your head and skull are basically the only moving part of the earthquake--you ARE the earthquake and what you experience is what the earth would experience as it's slowly shaken into pulp... and what your ears and brain experience is what an ocean experiences as it is shaken like a milkshake until it spills... :listen: :too_hot: :insane: :evil:

Ok, it must have been over 120 db, but not 160 ! It's all a matter of level.



Why ? What has the size to do with it ? To generate a low frequency, some big moving parts are welcome, but a pressure detector can be any size.

A barometer doesn't need to be the size of a cyclone in order to "feel" it.

totally forgot about this, I should've posted an example of my results, for the curious. This is using the PhatProDX plugin from http://www.delaydots.com and I'm pretty happy with the results. A couple 30 second samples <edit>(668KB and 687KB):

http://www3.telus.net/public/phuncky/b-boys.mp3
http://www3.telus.net/public/phuncky/b-boys-bass.mp3

I know I am new here and this is an old topic, but I just had to register with this site to add my 2 cents.

For starters, I too have been looking for a plug-in that recreates bass an octave lower very much like the AudioControl EpiCenter I have in my car audio system. So don't worry _Shorty, I'm in the same boat as you!

As for subwoofers and being able to play 10Hz at high volumes, it is very possible. And let me tell you, that night club in Germany is not the only "sound system" in the world to be able to reproduce bass frequencies that low and loud. There are a few clubs right here in Florida that can easily play 10Hz at extreme volumes, I should know, I helped design, install, and tune them.

Speaking of designing, I built my own subwoofer for my home theater utilizing a single 15" Adire Audio Tumult driver. This is in a 6cf sealed enclosure constructed of two layers of 1" MDF glued and screwed together for a total of 2" thick walls all the way around. However, the woofer baffle is four layers equalling 4" thick. Between each layer of MDF is a single layer of DynaMat. It is heavily braced inside with pressure treated 2x4s and also has cross-bracing connecting all the walls to eachother.

The fullrange frequencies go into a dbx Project 1 223 crossover, and come out at 60Hz and below. From there, it goes into a Behringer AUTOCOM PRO MDX1400 which is a 2-Channel compressor/limiter, expander/gate, and enhancer. After that, the signal is sent to a Carver Pro PM-1400 amp bridged at 8 ohms mono for 1400 watts output.

I'll admit, it is true you cannot "hear" 10Hz. However, it can definately be felt, not only be shaking your body, but by compressing the air around you and feeling like your head is in a vice! My home-grown subwoofer is very capable of playing all the way down to 7Hz @ 116dB!! This was meassured at my listening position with an AudioControl SA-3055 one-third octave real-time audio analyzer and about 300 watts into the sub. The Tumult never even reached a quarter of its rated Xmax, nor did it ever make any rude noises.

It's pretty neat to walk around outside the house and see and hear every, and I do mean every window in the house including the garage door move and rattle to 7Hz from the highly compressed air inside the house!