Yello all

Before I begin, I apologise for asking a question that has been covered several times before, but as far as I can see none of the previous answers have really addressed my needs.

Here’s the deal. I currently own a Creative Jukebox 3 40Gb player – and it’s been great for the 2 years I’ve had it, but recently it took a couple of knocks and the display broke and some of the connections became rather temperamental, though it is still usable. So, I decided recently, what with bonuses from work due soon, I’d take this opportunity to get myself a new player. Easier said than done it seems.

When I bought my Jukebox – it was pretty much the only choice for me – and there was practically no competition bar the Zen and the iPod. So it was easy. Now it seems everybody is producing a player and I’m a bit overwhelmed to say the least.

So here’s where I figure you guys can help out. Does anyone know of a place (online or available in the UK) to get reliable reviews of all the current players? A round up review, putting them all head to head would be fantastic. Alternatively what do you guys reckon is the best player? My needs are as follows (in order of importance):

Must Haves:
The best sound quality (single most important factor).
Huge amounts of storage (minimum 20Gb, preferred 40+Gb, ideal 120+Gb)
Ability to work as data storage (i.e. portable hard drive)
MP3 support (obviously)
Reasonable battery life (8+hrs) and/or ability to use standard batteries.
Good UI (on player).
Good build quality, particularly solid buttons.

Would like to have:
Small size – Jukebox is a bit too unwieldy, original iPod or Zen size is fine, but the smaller the better.
Support for (compressed) lossless audio, particularly FLAC (but any would do)
Line outputs for connection to stereo equipment
Good software (PC) for transferring tracks (either packaged or available separately, note I really hate both Creative PlayCentre and MediaSource)
Radio (built in or via accessories)
Support for Ogg
Great battery life (my Jukebox has 22hrs (quoted))
Ability to upgrade hard driver (at expense of warranty is ok)
IEEE 1394 connection to PC

Price is of no concern, and I really don’t need any other multimedia capabilities. I just want listen to my music anywhere I go, and on my stereo when at home As far as storage goes, I’d be prepared to drop to 20gb only if the player was far in advance of the nearest 40gb model.

Thoughts/comments/opinions?

Cheers.

Neuros has the best sound I've heard in my limited experience (Iriver/riovolt, a couple of Sony's)

Of your list..

It is rather on the large/heavy side as it uses a standard laptop (2.5 inch?) hard drive,
but it is available up to 80 GB.

USB 1 or 2, not firewire.

Battery life is ~8 hours. Factory replacement relatively cheap,or user replaceable with a torx wrench, but not easy enough to just stretch your time away from an outlet.

No flac, but it has been requested. There is open source firmware, so may end up user contributed. It can record up to 48 khz wav as is, or mp3. No ogg recording.

There are at least 3 choices of synch software, but you *do* need something that can build the database. At least one of them can build the database from files you have copied over using the regular external USB drive methods.

I think everything else on your list is covered.

edit: if Neuros got disqualified, then Iriver hd player and Rio Karma would be on my short list. I have never used either so that's just feature based and I can't comment on sound, synch software, etc. Players with 1.8 inch drives (including these I believe) will have limited storage for now compared to your wish list.

The iRiver iHP-140 would suit your needs the best. It even has an optical input and output!

Without a doubt, an iRiver H340

From your list:

The best sound quality
40 GB storage
Ability to work as data storage (i.e. portable hard drive)
MP3, OGG, BMP, JPG and limited XviD support
16 hours battery life and a external 4 AA battery pack (only included on International Version)
Good UI
Good build quality, particularly solid buttons.
Medium size: 103 x 62.1 x 25 mm (203 grams)
Line outputs for connection to stereo equipment
Good software (PC) for transferring tracks: appears as a external drive in Windows, Mac and Linux
FM Radio (built in)
USB 2.0 connection.

More info:

H340 webpage

And at misticriver.net forums:

MisticRiver.net

You're welcome

Hi, i think that is missing a very important one DAP, the COWON iAUDIO M3

It has a lot of features:

Capacity: 40GB or 20GB if you prefer
Battery: M3 Version => 14hours; M3L=>35hours+
Signal Noise Relation (SNR): 95dB =that's a very hi fidelity!
Playback formats: MPEG 1/2/2.5 Layer 3, WMA *, OGG, WAV **, FLAC
FM playback
LCD Remote Control w/backlight
MP3 direct encoding, from FM or from a internal microphone
USB 2.0
Firmware Upgradeable, for future formats support
Obviously can be used as a HDD for every file u want to carry
A very light weight, and size, is smaller than the IPod

And a lot of more functions!
Visit:

http://www.jetaudio.com/products/iaudio/m3/

Is the best one!

The optical input is absolutely useles on the iRiver H1xx series since these iRiver devices aren't capable of proper recording anyway ... every 20-30 seconds, a few samples will be dropped. From what I have heard, the H3xx series suffers from the same bug.

If proper recording is an issue, you will have to ditch iRiver HDD based players.

I'm kind of in the same boat as you, looking for an mp3 player. I've never owned one before so it would be interesting to see how well your search goes and what you end up getting. Anyways, I've been doing a bit of research on the 'net about various players too. This is what I've come up with to put on my short-list:

iRiver H340: Pros - Reasonable size (40GB), looks stylish, can view jpegs. Cons - iRiver doesn't seem to get very good feedback re: customer service and/or be open to feedback.

Creative Zen Touch: Pros - Supposedly excellent audio fidelity, 40GB drive, iPod-like (read touch) navigation. Cons - I've read some terrible stuff about how their quality of product is lacking, especially with headphone jacks.

Neuros II: Pros - FM recording with song recognition, built-in FM transmitter, large drives (up to 80GB), open source so firmware can be custom built for additional support (FLAC etc). Everybody says they really listen and participate in the Neuros community. Cons - maybe a bit large, and slightly unstylish (not bad though).

DMC Xclef 500: Pros - great recording capability, massive 100GB drive that is user replaceable, 20 hour battery life (advertised), plays most common lossy formats. Not sure about lossless feedback, I think I'll email them about seeing if future firmware might add it. Cons - interface looks like it may not be up to iPod standards for greatness/smooth for navigating etc.

Granted, I've never actually used any of those players but meh, take it with a grain of salt. And please, please feel free to argue about whether I'm full of balony or not (I mean, I read about everything on the internet ).

For me, I'm leaning towards the Neuros or the Xclef 500 because I'm poor and can't afford an iRiver, the Creative seems nice but with no potential to really improve upon itself, and I specifically left out the Rio Karma because at first glance while its specifications were an audiophile's dream (Flac, lossless etc), it also looks like it was defined for an audio enthusiast with no style (imho). I'm all about future potential in buying something, and to me the Neuros and the DMC looks they have what I want: pretty cheap, big storage, and enough features to keep me happy for a long time. And as for the Archos gMini (I think that's the right model I named) I don't see myself ever needing to watch a movie on the go. I can bring a laptop for that. Anyways, hope somebody finds this useful (sorry if I jacked your thread).

The H3x series does not feature optical SPDIF connections ...

Hi ectotropic,

I would suggest the iPod photo 60 GB.


iPod photo have:
Good sound quality, but invest in improved headphones, like Sennheiser PXC250.
Storage: 60 GB
Do work as data storage
MP3 support
15 hours of battery life
Good UI
Good build quality


The iPod photo have:
Small size
Support for Apple Lossless
Comes with docking station and cable for connecting to LINE IN on stereo
Best software for transferring tracks
Great battery life (15 hours)
IEEE 1394 connection as well as USB2.0

Having had one for about a month I have to weigh in with my Neuros "con". Good luck getting playlists to work with it. Maybe I'm an idiot, but I have tried everything I could think of, then asked for help twice on their forums (no reply). And then there's the sync software. The stock sync software sucks incredibly (17 hours to copy 50 gigs via USB2?), and the user-created ones are a bit better but one doesn't do playlists for me (or I'm an idiot) and the other hangs every time I try to build the database or sync.

Playlists are a must for me (and I assume for anyone with a lot of music), so naturally I am a bit disappointed. But then again, nobody else on their forums seems to have a problem with playlists, so there must be something to my idiot theory.

I told my ipod-owning friend of my problems and he laughed at me. Here I was, proud to one up him with a superior DAP -- larger drive, recording capability, not a corporate behemoth -- now I find myself jealous of the simple fact that his works without any hassle.

Go to: http://www.consumersearch.com

Type in: MP3 and go to the reviews.
ConsumerSearch is a kind of review site, per say.

What they do is compile reviews from all other sites that review that particular product. Its the first place I go when researching to purchase a product of any type.

For less objective, more personal reviews that are not included in the ConsumerSearch site, got to: http://www.epinions.com

I forgot to add this bit about Neuros and Vorbis: there are lots of reports of stuttered playback of vorbis q6 and higher files with the Neuros.

I dn't use them that much, but playlists hav worked ok for me. The synch software makes sure that the music files for your list get loaded if they aren't aleady on the Neuros.

Is there anyone who knows which "chip" which player use? And have some info about them? Any new and interesting coming soon?

I just picked up a Rio Karma yesterday. Played with it a little today. It's not too
bad. I wish the hard drive was a little bigger so I could throw more of my music
on in FLAC format. I really wanted to get the Creative Nomad Jukebox 3, but
they've been discontinued. None of the new ones really has what I want:
Line-level out, removable/replaceable batteries, removable/replaceable hard drive,
ability to record to WAV. Basically, a jukebox3 in a smaller form factor.

www.dapreview.com has some reviews on Audio players. Maybe check out
the forums on head-fi.org.

J

For Neuros, it is TI RMS320C54XX.

At open.neurosaudio.com you can find source code for the sync program, firmware, and the schematics for the player.

According to your i-observations I'd also prefer Neuros II and DMC Xclef 500... So I'm very interested in their cons...
BTW: What's the full word for cons...?

I'm very surprised that there's really not a DAP that has the above mentioned features...

ONe of the engineers for Karma (mostly the old empeg group, I think) told me that HD players need more current than you can easily get from alkaline AA's (assuming you want decently long life), so you really want something like nicads or lithium cells. After that it's a marketing issue whether to go whole hog on keepig the size down with custom Li-polymer cells or some standard cell that you have to design around mechanically, making the player larger.

Camera companies seem to have found a middle ground on the digitals where you can at least swap batteries even if they are specialty items that you mostly end up buying from the same brand as the camera. And at least for now, many brands still offer a choice of larger models that run off AA's or smaller cameras with custom lithium's.

Once you get an iPod, you'd never want anything else.. Good sound quality, a sleek enclosure that really fits your pocket and a great UI. The integration with iTunes is also a big plus because of its plug & play glory.

I really think my iHP-120 is about the best for me out there. Only one minor problem with getting one of them though. They've been discontinued and will be really really rare in the upcoming month.

My iRiver is plug and play too. I plug it in, drag and drop my files, and I'm done

Wicked - cheers for all the help guys, still been tough choice, but I think I've narrowed it down to either an iRiver H140 or an 80Gb Neuros II.

I think I'll end up with an iRiver sometime after Xmas (assuming they haven’t all disappeared by then), mostly due to lack of line out on the Neuros and it not currently being widely available in the UK (if at all). Pity, cause that 80Gb drive would have been sweet. Ah well. Besides, having looked around it seems the only issue most people have with the iRivers is the infamous click while using the inline remote, but since I don't really care bout using the remote the problem doesn't really bother me. Plus the iRiver seems reasonably cheap, which is a bonus (more money for CDs – woot!). I’m gonna borrow one off a mate before I make my final call, but I’m fairly sure that’s what it will be.

Anyway - cheers again for the help. Here's hoping they add FLAC support to the iRiver

And what about this issue...?

me, too! (still convinced of it)


...and that I consider a great feature, too. For many DAPs you have to use specialized software to upload music (like iTunes for example).


SebastianG

I guess, they won't. But I can live without FLAC support on the H120. IMHO It just doesn't make sense. It was mentioned before (not in this thread, though): Due to the high bitrates the HD will be active quite often and thus draining battery power very quickly. Also: You'll waste precios space. Heck, I'm using Vorbis at -q4 for all of my music to get small and nice sounding files at approx 100-130 kbps. - Any good reason you want to store FLACs on your DAP's HD ?


SebastianG

Yeah I use -q 5 on mine and it's completely fine. It's actually transparent for me really as I can't ABX it. I may use FLAC on my PC but for my portable lossless is just something that doesn't interest me. I already lose enough battery life for just using Vorbis, I could imagine FLAC.

Heh, I knew there was something else Happily, as it happens, I don't care about direct recording either. As long as I can transfer music (and general files) PC->DAP->PC and can play my DAP through headphones on the move and my hi-fi via a line out then I'm happy. I'd be fine with it if it had no audio inputs at all.


Only reason I would like FLAC support on my DAP is cause I use FLAC on my PC and I'm fed up with converting them everytime I transfer them accross - just takes so damn long, thats all I can live without it though.

I have b een in the same situation in wading through all the possibilites...what I cam down to was either a Iriver 320/340 or one of the Iaudio m3 or the soon to be released M5.

I ruled out the M3 because it doesnt have a display only a small LCD remote.
The M5 would be perfect but its not out yet.
SO I went with the Iriver H320 becase it was on sale at Best Buy for $249.00...and it has a huge community, check out misticriver.com. Anyway Ive had it for about 2 weeks and really like it. I am using the Line in to record my girlfriends radio shows plugged in directly to the receiver at the Radio Station! Im there right now recording.

If you can wait a few weeks months the M5 but if you can wait the H320 or H340


Merry X-mas!!!