Hi all ,

Please, I need a help of all of you.

I am taking an economic project (at present moment, it's only an idea), with two of my best friends.

We are 3 persons that, we want develop a company of design and manufacture of small electronic products.

We are electronic engineers, and, in particular, each one of us have different specializations:

Friend #1: digital design.
Friend #2: industrial electronics.
and ME): analog audio electronic design.

Particularly, I am COMPLETE responsible of the area of audio design, (this could be the principal line of action of our company, but, I am not sure yet...).

This is a very important and decisive moment in my life, because I have been always an employee, where the risks were safe and known... but, now the situation is different... In this independent project the risks are unsure and not known...

My line of thought is mainly the amplifiers of audio... and I wanted to share with you some ideas of them, and to know if these ideas could be useful for you or not.

I decided to make amplifiers for computers (or DAPs), in case that the user wants to use his PC (or DAPs) like musical center, popular idea in present days...

I know that exist multimedia amplifiers, but, I want to develop something different; maybe, something very simple, cheap, and with extreme sound quality (the most important characteristic).

THE AMPLIFIERS (General pecifications)

Frequency response: 20 Hz to 20000 Hz ( +/- 0.5dB) for NOMINAL output rms power.
Signal to noise ratio: around 90dB
Armonic distortion: no more than 0.1% for NOMINAL output power.
Damping factor: more than 100

***********************************

Powers available (NOMINAL output rms):
a)30 watts X 2 (stereo)
b)50 watts X 2 (stereo)
c)75 watts X 2 (stereo)
d)100 watts X 2 (stereo)

All of this amplifiers are thought considering the clear and exact reproduction of the sound; without any coloration.

The chassis are done in pure aluminum (as many of excellent vintage amplifiers); they include a linear and dedicated headphone amplifier too.. with the same quality that have many REFERENCE headphone amps (as GRADO RA1 for example)... This IMO is very useful; you have in the same amplifier an extra high quality HEADPHONE reference amp integrated, which is very different of the common crappy HEADPHONE output that many commercial amplifiers have..

My design is very simple and useful... the amps have only 3 RCA pair stereo line inputs.. one for your PC (of course), one for any commercial CD player, and one for any DAP or maybe a tuner..
The amps have 3 bands of tone equalization: BASS (+/- 10dB) at 100Hz; TREBLE (+/- 10dB) at 10000Hz; MIDDLE (+/- 10dB) at 1000Hz. and... of course, the volume control and off/on switch.

I avoid in my designs any crappy digital pre-equalizations, lights, bars, digital buttons.. all of these crappy accesories are not good, and only increment the final price of the amp.

My idea is something similar to the vintage amplifiers of the decade of 70, very simple but with very high quality sound (for example Sansui and Luxman were very good). Many of these vintage amplifiers have today a high quality performance, and them are yet very appreciated by true audiophiles.

Please any feedback will be very appreciated... Your opinions are very important for me, as i said before; I believe that is a good idea, but all of you have the last word.

nice... i want one

as far as i see what you've described, it's not really going to appeal to anyone but audiophiles as it is now. i guess there needs to be something special about it that'll impress the average punter.

- maybe look into 5.1, though the cost would be a lot higher
- if these things offer tremendous quality at the same price of a regular crappy computer speaker system, then people will definitely want to get their hands on one - but they need to know that these are better. considering the awful speakers that your target market traditionally has, this will be difficult to achieve unless you sell good speakers with these amps.

perhaps 2.1 systems would be a good compromise, or (small) nearfield monitors with internal amplification (you'd need bi-amping for this). i'd definitely spend money on smaller nearfields that compare to setups like the yamaha MSP5, but at a much lower price.

dunno... this is just a few ideas to consider. i'm just thinking about the sort of market you're aiming at, but i could easily have misinterpreted your post.

You could pursuit the possibilities of Class D and variants. Good efficiency -> no need for monster power supply (the $$$ part in good amps if I'm not mistaken).

If you want some designing tips, Head-fi has a great DIY audio section.

Perhaps an input on the front would be nice to easily plug in an iPod or another mp3 player. (for those who not use the amp. with a pc)

I have no vested interest here but see: electric-avenues.com

auldyin

I think this is a good idea.

Just some small points, and plase note I am not any kind of sound expert but as a
customer I would like.

1. The case (or speakers) to have magnatic shieding so they can be placed close to
TV's PC's. If included.
2. Careful design of the amp so not a cause too much radio inferance.
3. The plugs to be cleanly marked out.
4. Heat sinks on the amps components, to cut down on the noice when things become
hot.
5. No Bose tactics. The full specs should be posted some where on the site and in the
book that comes with the product.
6. Fine gradient on the controls.
7. Well built case. Aluminium is cool as it looks good and conduts heat. Please no
vibrating plastic case.
8. Some RCA leads included
9. Maybe more the controls for the higher power models.
10. Head phone type plug in/out.
11. Clean design. The head type plugs it the front. The RCA, power and the speaker
out put at the back.
12. The controls not sticking out very far.
13. Smart logo on the Amp, but not plasterd every where.

That was probily over the top, But quality from the sound is very important but
remember to look at every detail.

Often the high quality amps are very simple designs internally, just well done.
A couple of comments:

One of the weaknesses of 70's vintage gear is switches etc wear out. If they are custom rotary switches it is a royal pain to fix. Thats an advantage of relay switching. They can have thicker silver contacts (no corrosion problem as silver oxide conducts almost as well as clean silver), and they can be sealed to keep dust off the contacts. IF a relay does wear out replacement is simple.

90 dB S/N isn't all that great, and it is something you can really hear since the noise would be 90 dB down from full power, so much closer to average signal level.

Yeah, Class D is VERY interesting.
First your original sound is digital. So no need to use DAC (less stage in the sound processing), you can directly amplify your digital signal.
Second, the efficiency being close to 100% (rather than 20% for traditional amp IIRC), you could have an amp with a lot of power and headroom, without heating problems.
Definitely a good idea breez
I never heard of that for a pc...

Oh my, another optimist .... like we were almost 15 years ago.

Just one simple question : how are you planning to market your amp ?

Now the not so simple questions :

a. do you have the faintest idea what production costs you will have ?
b. do you have the faintest idea how many amps you will have to sell and manufacture, to come anywhere near the production costs a big player like SONY does have on their amps ?
c. do you have any clue about the normal margin of hi-fi shops if they will sell your amp ?

Not to discourage you, i am just curious if you have thought about this at all before ....

Christian
matroska project admin

Im curious what AcidOJ has thought about it

-I sure expect he has

Many thanks to all of you for your replies and support; this feedback is very important for me.


Thank you


The product that I offer is only the amplifier.. but, I could consider your idea of speakers with built-in amp. However, I believe that the combination of one dedicated amplifier with external dedicated and good speakers could offer better results..

Particularly, if you are interested in a good pair the speakers (and economical, of course) I could recommend to you these: Celestion F30
or maybe these (if the size is important): Celestion F15

As example my home system is the amplifier of (50 watts X 2), I have connected my amp. to one pair of F30 Celestion speakers, and these sounds amazing... BTW, Celestion is a good and recognized manufacturer and designer of speakers in England.


Good point!! Many thanks for this tip.. I will introduce this characteristic in my designs.

Acid Orange Juice, what about class D? Is it possible?

Maybe, I am specialized is in class AB amplifiers; but, I have that investigate first the possibilities that a good design class D can offer. However, class AB can offer better linearity and better damping factor than class D; but class D are very much efficient.. around 70% in comparison with class AB (around 40% to 50%). But, I have that investigate first with class D (thank you for your hint ), but the initial idea was class AB with low armonic distortion and high damping factor (this mantains the linearity and good control of movement of voice cone, and this have as result sound more clear and precise...) one problem that could have the class D amps. are armonics generated by switching in the output transistors, but I am not sure yet...

Yes but you could gain some fidelity thanks to the fact that you don't need a DAC, your amp being DAC and amplifier at the same time.
Just my 2c

Hi Acid,

A while back, some of my "fellow audio junkies" and I (we work for an engineering R&D facility with expertise in embedded systems and wireless access) were discussing what would be the next major step in high end audio from an innovation perspective. After much discussion, there was a general lack of ideas that we thought would appeal to a mass market and be truly innovative (like the ipod for instance).

Until one of the more senior engineers came up with the "Network Audio Solution".

Pretty much everyone agreed that computers had taken over our lives and that even the most green types could set up something simple like a router.

We also agreed that wireless was also taking over the home network infrastructure, and co-location of PC and audio equipment was not always possible, practical or desirable. Up to now, no one offered a single package solution - just an add on box with questionable capabilities and no room to upgrade.

We figured that the audio device would need to cover everything that the computer could not offer from a remote high-fidelity perspective, and most importantly, in a single package. I can't stress this last point enough from a marketing perspective. PC enthusiasts like clutter and complexity. The average John Doe doesn't.

So imagine a network device that could receive a lossless or lossy audio stream from a PC or laptop via Wi-Fi, decode it, allow some rudimentary remote EQ capabilities (if desired), amplify it in true high-fidelity, and allow interfacing to your favorite pair of speakers. Of course, the device would require the ability to upgrade with new codecs, etc. A network audio amplifier with no external inputs...just an antenna.

I'll let you chew on that for a bit...

(As for ChristianHJW's comments...don't let him discourage you. He sounds like a typical skeptic and dream-destroyer you'll meet many times on the way to success. Many of the world's most successful businesses started out as a glimmer in the founder's eye and a garage full of prototypes. If the product is truly innovative and meets a real requirement, it will sell itself. Deciding on how to market and channel the product is part of building any business and there are many better informed experts that you can rely on for a fee. Building a business is toil, sweat, and long hours. It can also be one of the most rewarding endeavors to throw your time at.)

Best of luck!

Yeah F1Sushi ,

I thought about something similar few times ago. I think about a 5.1 like that cos when buddies showed me their 5.1, I never saw it well connected. No need to talk about the phase/delay and the bass management
So a dedicated loudspeaker for each position (L, R, C, LFE, SL, SR), you plug on the regular AC power and it’s working (a phase alignment could be a good feature too). Also it could work in the entire house and no need to pay a huge amount of money for big cables, it’s just pure digital babe

If we could use the standard wireless protocol, it could be really easy cos you probably don’t need to install a physical device on the computer side.

I don’t think to upgrade the box itself for the codec. Just use a good lossless (24/44 for stereo and 24/48 for 5.1) or create a kind of wireless spdif, the decoding might be made on the computer. Then you don’t bother with decoder inside the box, this problem is already well managed on computer now.

According to my first study about this, the problems might be synchronisation and bandwidth.

But maybe we are diverging from the original idea of Orange (we are going to squeeze him).

However, if you have an idea and you really believe in it, don’t let you bother by scepticism. The only think you have to know is it’s probably more difficult than you think but not doing it is probably a bigger mistake. Where I don’t agree with F1Sushi is that even if you have a product that truly innovative and meets a real requirement, it’s not sufficient. You will need more. Sometimes, alliance with some big company might help you where you are weak. But watch out, protect your idea in a way or another (patent, technology, competition between potential partners, …) .

Good luck man and keep us posted.

Now maybe someone could think about this wireless protocol and maybe Orange could help to integrate it into his product.

Keep up the good vibes… I smell something good here…

Actually, I eluded to that by mentioning that he will need help to market and channel it. He might even need some technical guidance along the way. With the right product, good marketing, and the proper selling channel, the rest is up to John Doe.

Your multi-channel suggestion is a great logical next step as wireless bandwidth permits. The synchronization issue you brought up is right on the money. We struggle with this aspect of wireless connections all the time. There are different ways of solving that problem, but that's perhaps beyond the scope of this thread...

F1Sushi, I was saying it just for the contradiction but I think we have the same picture

Orange, you are still with us ?

Sounds like a beefed-up Squeezebox.

Thank you


All of this is contemplated


Yeah.. this is very important.. I know that many modern amplifiers have problems in this area.
In my case, this is fundamental for my amps; and taken seriously in consideration. All of electronic parts that need this have excellent heat dissipation with over dimensioned aluminum dissipators.
The chassis is in aluminum too, not plastic


The headphones jacks are taken in consideration, as too a dedicated high quality linear REFERENCE headphone amp. integrated.


I'm not sure that you want to tell with this ; Will you, please explain me?? thank you


Good

Of course.



Hi F1Sushi;
I like his idea ; this sounds very interesting and innovative IMO.
I believe that we could talk of this, and of as incorporating it in an amp.



This was not the original idea; but, sounds interesting
marcan: a question; are you suggesting (this is 5.1) that each speaker have a built-in amp with wireless system?? Please correct me if I am wrong...



Yes, this sounds good . I also think that probably be good idea to offer two solutions (for two differents groups of people):
1) Wireless solution: for the majority of the people; that don't want to have the PC and audio equipment in the same place (maybe the most popular solution).
2) Without wireless solution: for technician people as I (or maybe many of here in HA) that have the PC and Hi-Fi equipment in the same room and same place (particularly I have the PC and amp. in the same furniture, because I need this for my ABX tests, recording and audio edition in my PC). This solution is the first that I described in my post #1.



I believe the same

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I also think that the wireless solution is not exclusively for home use... also would work in big places that need great distributions of sound (many speakers in far places)