I've just bought a Video Ipod 60G and I'm having problems with two songs:

- Madonna / Hung Up
- Cold Play / Fix

Both files were encoded with Lame 3.97 b2 VBR and I get distortion in both.

So, I ran mp3gain and both files had a lot clipping. With this tool I gave both files the right db (89), but they are still clipping on my ipod. Definitley I can hear A LOT of distortion. I will try to encode them in AAC to see if Lame is the problem.

I have heard that this fixes the problem...but my problem still exists, even with the use of the EQ settings...

Madonna's - Hung Up is supposed to sound distorted.
The distortion is the same as on the original. E.g. from 2.45 to 3.00 in the song it is very noticeable.

If the second song you refer to is Coldplay - Fix You, I can't hear any added distortion in the encoded version either.

IMHO you should be happy that you can now hear details of the original production that previously went unnoticed.

Encoded with lame3.96 aps. Played back on 60 GB video iPod with HD-600.

it's either meant to be or try to turn off the EQ

That is not related to this problem. This problem is actual skips in the songs, not distortion.

I'm very happy with my new Creative Zen Micro here.

No problems playing my VBR MP3's, and it's gapless (or very very VERY nearly so) too.

Sorry to hear about all you guys having trouble with your iPods.

isn't it kinda off-topic?

No, not at all. If anybody here has trouble with the iPod mini and their VBR files, they should exchange it for the Zen Micro. With the exception of AAC support, it does everything the iPod Mini can do. Lend me an iPod Mini for testing and I can tell you in what ways the Zen Micro even outperforms it.

The thread itself is off topic by the way (belongs in Audio Hardware, not MP3 Tech).

. <----- is this a piece of your brain?

You must be great fun at parties

An iPod circle jerk party... I'd rather stay home.

Matter of fact: If you buy something and it doesn't meet your needs/expectations, you stand a better chance at buying something else that will, than getting any change.

FIRMWARE UPDATE!

http://www.apple.com/ipod/download/

What's new in iPod Updater 2006-01-10:

* Support for the iPod Radio Remote for iPod with video and iPod nano
* Bug fixes for iPod with video, iPod nano, iPod with color display, iPod mini, and iPod with Click Wheel

Let's hope that "bug fixes" address a certain bug...

Just tried the new firmware on my iPod mini 2G...

Bug not fixed.

This is the second update made by Apple after the stuttering issue has been reported.

One could speculate that the issue is a hardware issue with the processor that apparently calculates the clock speed wrong when playing back mp3.

Would still like to hear whether the bug is still present in the nano too.

iPod nano with new 1.1 firmware still stutters. In other words, Apple will never fix this. Good times...

I'm not surprised. Why would they...they have a monopoly...

ipod updater just came out, wonder if they've fixed the ipod photo vbr skip.

Yeah that must be the reason. Or, it could simply be a limitation with its decoding chip. That could explain why it's not a problem on the new video iPods

Limitation with its decoding chip? No freaking way, and the fact Rockbox developers have already started the porting process confirms this quite enough.

The other thing is that if Apple releases another firmware upgrade that fixes the stuttering problem, it'll reduce processor throttling, which may (and possibly will) lead to a reduced battery life.
And that kinda contradicts with one of their marketing statements of increased battery life (12—14 hours is already pretty bad for a flash player, they can't afford themselves to lower this value any more).

AFAIK, video iPods have more capatious battery.

I think the iPOD's only really aimed at playing AAC files downloaded from the iTunes store so why would an mp3 bug limited to a non iTunes encoder be a priority for Apple?

That's Apple's main excuse, yeah.

the issues with the 3G iPod were never fixed either...

What issues? When I got mine it was full of bugs (channel swap, 'tick' between songs, not turning on and frequent crashes etc). These were all taken care of in a subsequent FW update.

If they didn't know/care about the skipping problem, then why was it fixed on the 5G iPods?

might have happened by chance due to different parts or they fixed it so they give people another reason to upgrade. It is also a difference if you design a product from scratch or eliminate bugs for an existing product that has been superseded.

i have iPod nano 2GB
i have copied almost 50 Lame VBR -V2 encoded songs. and i listened to them regularly (with eq. flat), they never skip!

It's not "every song", it's a select few... and it's very irritating. Yes, using the latest LAME 3.97 at -V2 or -V0 & --vbr-new. Which songs are impacted may depend on the version of the encoder. And as most have said, it's somewhat related to the bitrate changing significantly.

This is my first post so please be kind

I downloaded the samples AWS_HOPE, FiveYears, and NINRight to my video iPod 30 GB. I did not hear any stuttering or skipping on this particular iPod. The iPod was unplugged except for Sony MDR V600 headphones.

BTW, I am in the process of re-ripping our collection of 200-300 CDs with EAC and LAME 3.97 Beta 2 with --preset fast standard -B 256 options. I previously used MusicMatch at CBR 128k a year ago. I don't have golden ears, but maybe my daughter can hear a difference

Thank you, sehested, for the treasure trove of observations and samples!

The Video iPods don't have this issue, it has been proven.



DON'T USE THAT PRESET! Not only is --preset fast standard old and replaced by --v2, using -b 256 is not a smart move.

Use "-v2 --vbr-fast" instead with LAME 3.97 Beta 2. Never use custom presets with LAME, there is no need to and you will do more harm then good.

LAME 3.97 "--preset fast standard" maps to "-V 2 --vbr-new" -- you can use either; no difference. But yes, don't set a minimum or maximum bitrate using -b & -B

Sehested observed that this stuttering problem does not occur on iPod nano or mini 2G when using -B 256. While I don't have such an iPod now, that doesn't mean I won't have one later. If Apple has not fixed this problem by now, I would not hold my breath until a fix is delivered.

For ipod listening and general stereo music listening that is true. Except there are other applications where you would want to use non presets with lame. What about streaming, movies, audiobooks, speeches; what if or dolby surround playback is all you use? I know what you mean, and I think the VBR presets fit most common music listening uses, but I have to point out that there are other uses for mp3 encoding. And besides, even for music listening V 2 would be overkill for most people, unless you can abx any samples from the recent listening test, which were not even "killer" samples.

I think I am experiencing this same issue with my 4GB Mini (non-color). I had noticed skips / stutters before on several different tracks of varying artists, but had just passed it off to bad rips. Some of my CDs were scratched, and I will admit that at times I just used EAC's burst mode to get through them. This time however, I got stuttering on a rip from a brand new CD: Jackson Browne's "Solo Acoustic vol. 1". It happens on several tracks, but is most noticeable on "The Birds of St. Marks". Since this is a "live" album, there are the usual little skips between tracks. I hate that ipod feature, but I accept it. Additional skipping in the middle of the songs kind of ruins my day.

I listened to the same MP3 on my PC, and there was no stuttering, so I thought there was something wrong with my iPod. After searching for an answer, I found this thread, and bingo! This has got to be what is going on.

As suggested, I tried turning on EQ (used Acoustic), and stutter disappeared. I also made AAC files (from a WAV) of this track at 128, 160, & 192 CBR (probably should have tried VBR) and no stutter. I then made another MP3 with Lame and it stuttered in the same exact places.

This EQ workaround is what I will probably have to live with. I spent far too many hours ripping my CD collection using EAC and Lame 3.90.3 Alt Preset Standard, after getting this iPod as a gift. (was an MPC guy before that). Really don’t feel like re-ripping and encoding once again to another format like AAC.

Just bought a really nice portable amp, a pair of ER4 headphones, and thought I was all set to enjoy. I do like my iPod a lot, and the music sounds amazing with this combo, but this issue is very annoying. I’m skeptical that Apple will ever fix it with an update, especially since they discontinued the Mini. (This could have been one of the reasons why.)

Thank you Sehested, and others, for your informative posts and all your work at bringing this “bug” to light.

If everyone would just use AAC like they're supposed to we'd never have this issue to begin with.


</flamebait>

Sorry, I didn't understand what you mean.

At the risk of spoiling loopholes bait, here's his logic with my comments:



To bite or not to bite...? That is the question!

This is the biggest bullshit ever. I tested Nero AAC files on a friend's iPod Mini and they stutter when VBR is used. My mom's iPod Shuffle (she isn't a techno-freak and the Shuffle had the most simple design) won't play Nero AAC files at all (see http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=300590). The only reason why iTuness AAC doesn't stutter is because it doesn't use VBR, but ABR.
And if Apple didn't want us to use MP3, why the heck do they advertise MP3 playback abilities?

I think someone needs a sarcasm detector for their birthday

iTunes AAC VBR files don't skip or stutter on my iPod mini. Their bitrate is all over the place too, just use Foobar and check it for yourself.

The sarcasm was that we should use AAC over MP3. The problem is that not even AAC is supported correctly (see Nero AAC problem I mentioned)

Well I've never had any Nero VBR files skip on my 2G mini. I think it's just the shuffles that have any real problem with this. But I would very much like to use LAME.

But the thing is.... I think it was pretty obvious he was joking around.

I never had Nero AAC VBR files skip on my iPod either. I'm using iTunes VBR AAC now with no problems. As I mentioned before, you can use Foobar to see the variation in bitrate in iTunes created files.

I know I'm going to get flamed for this, but how is this supposed LAME problem Apple's fault? This supposed problem only happened with a very small number of songs that were encoded with certain revisions of LAME, correct? So how is it Apple's fault? Why isn't LAME at fault? I know in the eyes of most people here, LAME = God. But this problem only occurs with certain revisions of LAME and no other MP3 encoder. Before you go off spouting about how LAME is the "Standard", let's not forget that the vast majority of people out there have never even heard of LAME. Most DAP owners out there are iPod owners and probably have never even looked at the "importing" tab in iTunes so they're all using 128kbps AAC. So, anyway, how is this Apple's fault? A small number of songs encoded with certain versions of LAME cause improper playback on the iPod. This is their fault, how? No other VBR codec causes this problem.

Quite simply because virtually every other product plays the files correctly, including Apple's own iPod with Video. It's with any version of LAME... not "certain revisions of LAME." Some VBR encodes will have bitrate variations that stutter on the iPod nano, Mini, etc. It's really inexcusable the Nano, with the current firmware, still has the problem.

And in the eyes of some other people, Apple or Google = God, Microsoft = Shit, etc.

Anyways, did you bother to read my post entirely? I didn't said iTunes encodes AAC with CBR, I said it encodes with ABR. ABR is similar to VBR, but the bitrate difference between frames is smaller. Therefore, I doubt you have frames jumping from 32 kbps to 320 kbps.
Unfortunately, I don't have access to an iPod other than the Shuffle now - and the Shuffle refuses to play non-iTunes AAC files entirely, so I cannot test which Nero encodes skip.

An MP3 player that is not able to play VBR MP3s flawlessly is not an MP3 player. And not only it has problems with MP3, some iPods also seem to have problems with AAC.

Really? So you did test all other MP3 encoders in existance out there?



Well LAME outputs MPEG 1 / 2 Audio Layer III standards compliant bitstreams. This can be proven. If any device can not decode that standards compliant bitstream correctly it's obviously that devices fault (or put in another way: the device is not Audio Layer III compliant).

iirc, the switch, "--strictly-enforce-ISO" would need to be included to ensure compliancy with the most pessimistic interpretation of the standards.

Has this switch been tried yet with the ipod's problem?
If it works, it could be a little less obstructive to the normal encoding scheme than -B 256 (the quality hit of either being unknown but likely diminutive)

It would be good if a --ipod alias switch for -B256 or --strictly.. could be compiled into Lame, to help diffuse this problem, regardless of who is at fault.

Update:

The LAME bug has been reported to Apple since long - both through Apple Feedback and via their US telephone support.

Recently I have also reported the problem via Apple's Developers Connection Bug Reporter.

Initially I filed the bug as "Other bug". After their initial review the status was raised to "Serious bug" by Apple support. After a few days the status was lowered to "Other bug", probably by second line support.


I have decided to part with my iPod mini 2G. My iPod video has no playback problems and the sound quality is vastly superior to the mini, when using quality headphones.


However before parting entirely with the mini I wanted to make one last round of tests using LAME 3.97b2 and iPod mini software 1.4.1.

David Bowie - Five Years:

LAME3.93 --alt-preset standard -> stutters
LAME3.96.1 --preset standard --strictly-enforce-ISO -> stutters
LAME3.96.1 --preset standard -B 256 -> OK
LAME3.97b2 -V0 --vbr-new -> OK
LAME3.97b2 -V1 --vbr-new -> OK
LAME3.97b2 -V2 --vbr-new -> OK
LAME3.97b2 -V3 --vbr-new -> OK
LAME3.97b2 -V4 --vbr-new -> OK
LAME3.97b2 -V5 --vbr-new -> OK
LAME3.97b2 -V2 -> OK

Conclusion: LAME 3.97b2 no longer have the stuttering problem with the Five Years sample.

Nine Inch Nails - Right where it Belongs:

LAME3.96.1 --preset standard -> stutters badly
LAME3.97b2 -V0 --vbr-new -> stutters
LAME3.97b2 -V1 --vbr-new -> stutters
LAME3.97b2 -V2 --vbr-new -> stutters
LAME3.97b2 -V3 --vbr-new -> stutters
LAME3.97b2 -V4 --vbr-new -> stutters
LAME3.97b2 -V5 --vbr-new -> OK
LAME3.97b2 -V0 -> stutters
LAME3.97b2 -V1 -> stutters
LAME3.97b2 -V2 -> OK
LAME3.97b2 -V3 -> OK
LAME3.97b2 -V4 -> OK
LAME3.97b2 -V5 -> OK

Conclusion: iPod mini 2G still stutters with some LAME3.97b2 encoded files, but
Five Years can no longer be used as sample for demonstration of stuttering.
Although NIN - Right where it Belongs stutters less with LAME3.97b2 than previously, it is still an excellent sample for demonstrating stuttering.

I have recorded the line out from the iPod mini so people not having an iPod mini 2G will be able to hear what the stuttering sounds like.

You will find the line out files as well as the lossless and encoded files here.


NB: People purchasing music from sites like allofmp3 should be aware they risk getting files encoded with older versions of LAME than the current 3.97b.

Although allofmp3 currently use LAME 3.97b with -V 2 --vbr-new as their preset standard setting, some files encoded with older versions of LAME exist in their file cache.

I probably will be getting an iPod Video after its next revision. My mini has been great (stuttering aside), but I am sick of fine tuning my playlists to fit in 4 GB of space.

Sold my iPod mini 2G.

Wasn't even sad to let it go, rather I feel releaved.

Apple today introduced a 1GB version of their iPod nano.

I think I will test that out when it hit the local Apple store...

Probably still have the stuttering issue, but you never know...

link

can people with iPods confirm this? i'm getting my 2GB nano in 2 weeks, so i can't test now

no one?

VBRfix has already been tried. However there is nothing wrong with the LAME headers and VBRfix will not solve the stuttering problem.

so this guy is telling bs?