Hello

I have been thinking about getting a portable mp3 player for a long time now, but can never seem to find the perfect match for myself. After reading a lot of reviews, I think that the iRiver iFP-700/800 Series is perfect for me!

However, Today I came across a site which has changed my mind. I was so close to getting this player. On this site it said that the iFP700/800 Series are not recognised as portable drives on your computer when plugged in unless you install the included drivers?


I am hoping this matter has been resolved through firmware upgrades, but have not been able to find this information anywhere. This is why I am asking this question here.

Is it true that you have to install software to get your computer to recognise this mp3 player. If it is true, has the matter been resolved yet through firmware upgrades?

Thanks

Edit: Typos, Quoted tomshardware.com

Sorry to bother the people of HA. It looks like this problem has already been fixed by iRiver through firmware upgrades!

UMS Update for iFP-700 Series
UMS Update for iFP-800 Series

I'm ordering this mp3 player now!

Before I do go out and buy this. Can someone please answer the following questions if its not too much trouble!

1. Can this play standard LAME mp3 vbr files simply by dragging them into the portable drive icon in windows explorer after upgrading the firmware of the player? I do not want to use the software supplied.
2. Can you pause and resume the tracks?
3. Can you seek though the tracks?
4. Does it support gapless playback?
5. Copyright Protection System: Yes - What does that mean?
6. Are there any other problems which might stop me from buying this player?

Thanks again!

Edit: Added more questions

1. Yes
2. Yes
3. Yes
4. No
5. Supports WMAs with DRM
6. Don't think so

The information above is based on a friend's device.

Thanks for the quick reply Sebastian Mares. I have no more excuses not to buy this player. Now all I have to do is find the best price in the UK.

Thanks for the info.

There's the UMS (USB Mass Storage) firmware. However transfers from and to the player are terribly slow. About 500kb/s on my PC. The "Manager" firmware which forces you to use a specialized application is much faster. edit: I just transferred 300mb in a little less than 3 minutes which would equate to roughly 1700kb/s end edit

The UMS firmware doesn't allow you to record with more than 96kb/s.
The Manager firmware doesn't allow you to download music from your player back to your PC.

On my system I've had trouble getting recorded stuff from the player to the PC and also had sporadic disconnects. Might be unrelated to the player.

I haven't used the UMS firmware, but I would guess the difference is in the firmware having to manage a file system (probably FAT) where on the original firmware the synch manager can make whatever access database is needed on the host computer and shove it all in with no big computation needed by the processor on the player.

One other advantage to the magager is you can use it to set up all the FM presets with frequency and station names.

THe IFP I have used is my kid's, and not extended use. I haven't figured out how to navigate by album (vs scrolling through individual tracks until I reach the desired album). Maybe that is easier with UMS firmware if you are already navigating directories?

Gecko - Have you tried this?


DonP - I have read some reviews that the navigation does have a learning curve, but once you get used to it, its cool!


The lowest price I can find in the uk is £150. I have found it on ebay for £99 but that guy wants £30+ for delivery!

Again, thanks for all the info and help.

Two thoughts I've had with my 799.

On no. 5, it supports WMAs with DRM but you must use WMP10 to put these files on the player. Just dragging and dropping will not put the DRM license file on the player and it will not play.

Two other issues. Occasionally if I am listening to a vbr mp3 that has ID3v2 tags in it, it will cause the player to literally come to a screeching halt. Several loud screeching noises, then the player restarts. Other users at www.misticriver.net have reported the same thing. Id3v1 tags do not cause this problem; I did not study it in depth enough to try to figure out whether it was caused by files at certain bitrates or whatever.

The other issue is only an issue if you are a Vorbis user. It will not play a file whose average bitrate is less than 96 or above 224. Also, on Vorbis playback, there is an audible click or pop in between each track that is not there using mp3 files (that were encoded from the same flac files I used to encode a couple of test Vorbis files).

Danimal - Thanks for your reply!

Luckely all those points do not apply to me as I dont use WMA, foobar2000 makes it easy to convert flac files to mp3 with ID3v1 tags, and I am not planning on using Ogg Vorbis (although I do like Ogg Vorbis), I have read that the iFP-700/800 series battery lasts longer with mp3 files!

The only drawback is the fact that the iFP-700/800 series mp3 players do not play gapless mp3 files. This is also not a problem for me as I dont normally listen to tracks which blend into the next track.

I've seen the player in the UK for £119.99 Including VAT and Delivery! I don't think that can be beaten!

Edit: Added point about gapless playback, Best price

I know I said "at the beginning of this thread", that I am going to go and buy it now! But before I do, does anyone know of an even better mp3 player which can do everything the iFP-700/800 Series can but better. Must be the same size if not smaller, and does not have any of the problems that the iRiver has.

Problems:
1. Can only record at 96kb with firmware update.
2. Without firmware update it can not be used as a removable drive
3. Slows does player to pc transfer if firmware updated.
4. Tag problems
5. No Gapless playback
6. Tries to make it difficult to copy files back to your computer
7. Limited ogg vorbis support
8. Difficult navigation
9. No Build In USB Port (like iPod Shuffle)
10. And any other problems that you may know of

Quick question. It does let you copy normal document/data files back and forth doesn't it?

Thanks for any added info.

Edit: Added problem list

You might want to look at the iAudio players built by Cowon.

I think the iAudio players are great players and maybe even better than the iFP 700/800 Series!

But there is always 1 big thing about all their players which puts me off!

iAudio U2 - No removable battery!
iAudio 5 - No joystick navigation
iAudio 3G - Very flimsy design

iFP-700/800 has removable battery, joystick navigation, non flimsy design.

So If the iAudio U2 had a removable battery, the iAudio 5 had joystick naviation, and the iAudio 3G was smaller and had a more solid design, I would put those players above the iFP-700/800 Series!

Half your questions have been answered, I know but....

I have an 899 and I've had no problems whatsoever - it's an excellent player that blows the competitors away in most respects, particularly regarding sound quality and flexibilty (you can set virtually any parameter you can think of)!

As regards using it as a removeable drive you can upgrade to the UMS firmware to make it a appear as a removeable drive but you have to install the Manager software initially to do it. Downsides to the UMS software are slower transfers (about 30% slower) and a capped recording limit of 96k for line-in, radio and voice. Advantages are that ANY files can be transferred either way between player and PC. Manager software WILL let you transfer non-music files either way (this includes any recorded files). If you rename MP3 file extensions to .REC before you put them on the player you can transfer them off it and they will play fine.

By the way there's no problem with swapping between Manager and UMS software and I often do, but be aware that doing so re-formats the memory so ALL files are lost!

The player HATES ID3V2 tags so don't use them! Yes it does support resumes so you can go back to exactly where you left off, and yes you can seek through tracks (at 1x, 2x, 4x or 6x normal speed).

Gapless isn't supported but personally I find the gaps are extremely short and I hardly notice them. OGG files play a bit quieter too for some reason, apart from the restrictions in bit-rate and higher battery consumption.

Navigation difficult? Says who? It's very easy actually!

Battery life is excellent and it works quite happily off rechargeables (I get upwards of 25hrs from a 2300mAh NiMh).

Final thing: price....I just recently got the 899 for £143 and I've seen the 890 for about £90 including VAT and delivery - Try 4Waysolutions.com, it's where mine came from and they were highly competitive and did free next-day delievery (I have no connection with them, I should add).

Hope that lot helps!

antz - Thanks for clearing a few things up! That info was very helpful. I know the iFP-700 Series has or had a problem with white noise! Am I right in assuming that this problem has been fixed. Does the iFP-800 Series have this problem?

Where can I get a mini usb port like this?

I just looked on amazon-UK and they have the iriver 899 (1GB!) for 119 pounds.
the 790 (256 mB) is 74.99.

I can't think of another brand that meets your desires (UMS, removeable standard battery, size) better. Though it does require a USB cable, at least it is a very standard connector (same as my Palm and Neuros player, and mini-mouse) I got one with a thin cord and self-winding reel that pockets easily.

Your'e welcome. The white noise issue goes back to last year. The 700 and 800 series are identical by the way, other than in the style, so I think the 800 series had it too. I don't know if it was a batch issue but it seems later models didn't have the problem. White noise was only produced by the player when not playing anything so I don't think it was a big deal since you tend to play stuff rather than have it idle with power-off on a long setting!

Anyway, I can only say that any white noise on mine is absolutely inaudible even at max volume - not something I recommend because it's painfully loud when you play something at that level and forgot you left it on max! If you want hearing damage, iRiver can supply that for you!

Anything else you need to know, feel free to ask. I'd warn you that I'm a bit biased though, I think the iRiver players are well up on their competitors, even if there are some compromises in the firmware.

Don't know but it looks really neat! Not sure it'd work well on the iRiver flash players due to port-position, it'd leave the player at an awkward angle for a normal USB port orientation and might strain the connector on the player...

I would like to thank everyone in this thread for their knowledge of the iFP-700/800 players.

I will definately be getting this player. It will be the 1Gb version, either the 799 or the 899. Still not sure which one. I am leaning towards the 799 because I prefer its look.

Does the 799 have the usb port at the bottom? like the iAudio U2 in the image above showing the mini usb port?

Can someone please confirm the following?


If you go to this website and look at the section "audio formats supported", you will see that it says "OGG Vorbis (32 kbps ~ 500kbps). Has a firmware update fixed the limited Vorbis support?

Thanks again.

Edit: Ogg Vorbis comment addes.

I would suggest you visit Misticriver as they have a large FAQ area that should answer any questions you have on this DAP.

rs

Thanks for the link!

I replaced my iRiver iFP with the Samsung MT6x. It does everything the iRiver does, but better - no recording bitrate limit, no tag problems, no ogg problems, FAST transfer rate, and better battery life. Plus it's smaller.
Buy it @ Amazon, or check pricegrabber.com for best prices.

One more thing: it comes with that tiny USB connector

The iFP series looks awesome on the website, but once you've got the thing in your hand and start using it, I think you'll wish for the Samsung. I personally will not be going back to iRiver unless they change some fundamental priorities and make some seriously better products.

4. NO
5. low bitrate recording with UMS. Also frustratingly slow transfer times.
6. Size+shape (player is actually shaped like the iFP-3xx series, has a triangular cross-section which the press photos don't show). Ogg support is awful, bitrates cannot drop below 96kbps or the file won't play. Line-in recording is quite deliberately crippled with UMS. Expensive (check Samsung YP-MT6 for price).

What you have read is correct - battery life takes a hit with ogg vorbis.

I'm just wondering why this is such a negative 4 u, as the multi-directional toggle switches on the I5 are intuitive enough for me, personally.

I thought the Samsung YP-MT6Z had a mp3 file size limit. Something like 12Mb? Has this been fixed?
It says it fades from track to track, can this be turned off?
Is there a firmware update which lets you record to mp3 using the voice recorder?
How flimsy is the battery door?

vinnie97 - When I looked at the iAudio 5 I didnt notice the multidirectional buttons. Can you post some pics of this please?

Thanks

Edit: More questions.

There is no difference in navigation between the UMS and manager firmware. They both allow for a dorectory structure. There is fast skip, which can be setup to skip to the next album or forward 10 tracks. Ex: shortly click the joystick forward (release) and immediately make a long click forward (backwards respectively). At least that works for me. I found it by accident and haven't checked the documentation.



Supposedly that trick no longer works with newer firmwares. Haven't tested though.

no file size limits here, it's working great on my huge audiobooks Fade from track to track - yes, that's a problem. I hope a firmware update will fix this soon, but AFAIK no flash player does gapless anyways..
Voice recording is the only feature the iRivers do better than Samsung. I believe the iFP have the best voice-recording of any flash player, because nothing else I've had sounds even a fraction as good. If you do much of that, then you probably should get an iRiver.
The battery door is rock solid. It's an extremely well-machined little unit, exactly as the pictures @ samsungusa.com show it. FYI the iRiver batt. door is also excellent.

Here's a site with some more info and most recent firmware: www.cczclan.com/yp-55.asp

The best site for iRiver-related info (and ridiculously unrestrained zealotry, making HA.org dogmatics look like a gang of pikers) is probably www.misticriver.ws

This is going to be my deciding factor.

I know after a firmware update the iFP can only do 96kbps mp3 from radio recording. How about voice recording and line in recording. Is that also limited to 96kbps after a firmware update?

Yes, everyting is limited to 96kb/s.
When voice recording using the UMS firmware, there is a lot more noise and other garbage than there is with the manager version.

Thanks

Can someone please fill in these gaps

iAudio G3
LineIn = ?
Voice = ?
Radio = ?

iAudio 5
LineIn = ?
Voice = ?
Radio = ?

Samsung YP-MT6Z
LineIn = ?
Voice = ?
Radio = ?

I just want to know the minimum and maximum encoding bitrates for all 3 LineIn, Voice, and Radio recording for the 3 players above.

Thanks for all the help guys!

Can anyone tell me if the following information is correct?

iFP-700/800
Line In = mp3 96k max
Voice = mp3 96k max
Radio = mp3 96k max

iAudio 5
Line In = mp3 128k max
Voice = mp3 128k max
Radio = mp3 128k max

Samsung YP-MT6
Line In = mp3 128k max
Voice = mp3 128k max
Radio = wave only

How is the G3 flimsy? The only mention I've seen of that was the Cnet review, which got edited several times for such things...

The I5 navigation is actually pretty good, and allows for decent blind navigation. IMO, the worst part about the iAudio players (snce no flash players do gapless playback, anyway ) is the crappy lanyard they come with (but $3 of shoe laces later...).

However, note that the G3 does not come witha a->A USB adapater, just a cable.

I have owned the Iriver IFP-895, the Samsung MT6X, and the Iaudio 5 1GB. I have kept only the Iaudio 5. Here is why.

Concerning the Iriver, I dislike being forced to use a music manager. I have a Rio 500 which comes with a music manager that will not install to higher than Windows 9x. Fortunately, there is third party software. The Iriver UMS firmware has not been as reliable as their standard firmware. My Iriver 895 suffered from the white noise problem. In addition, the size, shape, and weight made the 895 somewhat difficult to carry. The joystick was too easy to bump during use which would lose my track position. I listen to a lot of audiobooks and losing your place is very annoying. I needed to use the hold switch which I find an inconvenience since I often change volume for each track. The 895 did not have bookmarks to save your place in long tracks such as books.

Concerning the MT6, my Samsung developed a very loose holding earphone jack. The clear carry case tended to stick to the player making it hard to remove. It did not suport bookmarking. The MT6 is MUCH too easy to power on. It should have been designed with a timed press to turn on like the Muvos. The MT6 functionality seemed to be a subset of Iaudio functionality. Lastly, there is very little user forum support for Samsung products.

I like the Iaudio 5 for its build quality, the sound quality, the size, weight, and shape. It supports UMS and bookmarking. I prefer jogswitches over joysticks because of the bumping problem. I normally never use the hold switch on my Iaudio 5. It is easy for me to change volume without worrying about losing my track position. And as mentioned before, you can operate the menu functions blindly and from memory. The I5 does not voice record well nor does it encode via line-in well, but they will do for emergency uses.

Wow. I totally agree with you about the iRiver and the Samsung, haven't had the iAudio (yet!) but it sounds nice. I've noticed that the MT6 really does power on too often, so I'm using the HOLD switch as a habit now..
That iAudio 5 jog switch sounds really nice. Does it feel better than the N200? I noticed that the iAudio site lists a fairly slow transfer speed for the 5.. does it perform to spec, or is it any faster after the latest firmware upgrade?
The iAudio website claims "iAUDIO 5 can play up to 20 hours of continuously with single AA battery" but I think that's a triple-A battery. Does the unit get the full 20 hours?
And lastly: will the iAudio 5 bookmark any file type, or only certain tagged files (as with the iPod)?

I'm always looking for a sweet upgrade This iAudio 5 looks like it might be my next machine.

BTW, I layered some cut up post it notes around the MT6 power button to protect it.

The I5 jogswitches are different than the standard jogswitch. They require a more precise centering before pushing in (enter). This is an annoyance to some and prevention of accidental enters for others. I5 FF/RW require less effort than the N200 jogswitch. The I5 jogswitches are more elegant looking (silver metal appearance).

I get about 3 to 4 times max USB 1.1 speed depending upon the OS settings concerning the drive properties. Overall, the I5 seems as fast as the N200 and MT6.

I tested the I5 with a standard multimeter and various mp3 files. The normal power consumption is 50 milliamperes. That works out to about 20 hours with a fresh alkaline battery. Using any sound enhancement increases power consumption by up to 25 percent. Most users get over fifteen hours.

The I5 seems to be able to bookmark any type of file. I use it mostly on books. The I5 bookmarking mechanism is the best that I have used. You press and hold the record button to save a bookmark at the current position. You can save multiple marks per track. The bookmark list is like a playlist. You see a list of track names to select from. On my Nitrus, you just see a list of bookmark numbers, not too helpful.

I normally carry both the N200 and I5. The N200 is for Audible book tracks and the I5 is for mp3 / wma books and music.

Concerning gapless playback, I conducted a test with my iFP-799 a while ago. After recording track junctures with a WAV editor via line-out and examining the gaps I found that they are typically 0.075 second. Your MP3s must be produced in a specific way, though: the whole album/mix has to be ripped to a single file, and then you split the MP3 with musiCutter into separate tacks according to the CUE sheet. This way, the gaps are almost unnoticeable.

If the MP3 to be split is LAME VBR, you have to enable the Skip VBR Header (if present) option under Options/Specific in musiCutter, otherwise the first track of the split MP3 will loop continuously. That's a bug in iRiver firmware (not limited to iFP).

If you rip and encode the tracks separately, the gaps are considerably larger - 0.119 sec - and can be pretty annoying.

As for the ID3v2 tags causing reboots, I think that is a mistaken notion. I've had spontaneous reboots with MP3s with no ID3 tags of any kind. The real problem, IMO, is some bugs in the firmware pertaining to reading some LAME VBR files. There is a very simple workaround: turn the equalizer on by selecting any setting other than Normal (i.e. EQ off). If you don't need any equalization, select User EQ and set all frequency bands to 0. That way, the EQ will still be on but will not actually do anything besides preventing reboots.

I don't see why iRiver Music Manager is a problem. Of course, it could have more features but it gets the job done just fine and takes only 12MB of RAM. You can drag files or whole directories from Windoze Explorer into its window, easily rename or resort files/dirs and there is a Wizard (batch) mode that allows for unattended transfers. I heard of the UMS version being low as molasses, but with the manager firmware it takes just 12 minutes to transfer the full Gig.

The Ogg Vorbis support is a letdown, agreed. The USB port is there, who said it is not? It is on the end opposite the headphone jack. An appropriate USB cable (about 6 ft) is included with the player.

An excellent player in all respects. Not perfect, but then what player is?

<edit: stuff>

Im considering either an iRiver iFP-799 or an iAudio 5 (or possibly a G3).

One aspect I really like about these players is their abilities for line-in recording, and radio recording by timer. From my research, it appears that the iRiver has better (a wider range of) recording options, regarding bitrate and samplerate.

iRiver: 8 - 320 kbps , 11.025 - 44.1 KHz ...?
iAudio: 96 - 128 kbps , 44.1 KHz ...?

Though it appears that this iRiver advantage is offset by some hindrances...

-- The iAudio encodes directly to MP3, and since it is UMS, can be uploaded to any PC.
-- The iRiver encodes as ".REC" and requires their software to convert REC to MP3.
Is the conversion of REC to MP3 much of a hassle? I assume there would be no quality loss, (no actual transcoding / reprocessing), correct? Would converting a 2 hour recording take much time?
If the iRiver UMS firmware is used, recording is limited to a max of 96 kbps ... any other restrictions?
Are there disadvantages when playing files in REC format vs. MP3?

Other concerns -
Can both of these players be operated on usb power alone (sans battery)?
Any difficulties using on linux? So far, I've read that the iRiver firmware can only be updated using their software on windows.

Any insights regarding these facts / questions would be greatly appreciated!

The ".rec" files are MP3s, when you copy them off the player with the IMM it'll pop a window up after they've all been transfered and "convert" them to MP3's. You could also use a batch file to rename 'em too:

rename *.rec *.mp3

I suspected it might be simple as that. thanks!

Just bought a iRiver 799, and so far I love the timer radio recording function

In answer to queries:

It doesn't run on USB power, only the AA battery; not a huge problem as it seems to run a LONG time using NiMh even doing lots of recording and file transfer.

The firmware options are a bit confusing, but a little reading http://www.misticriver.net/ confirms that 1.25 is the version to have in order to record at decent bitrates (up to 320kbps MP3), but you do have to use the Iriver Music Manager; the UMS firmware makes it mount like a jump drive, but limits to 96kbps recording.

Overall a good but quirky device (no ID3V2 with VBR? WTFO?) , soon I'll experiment with the line in recording.

Yane

iRiver "REC" files are in fact MP3 files and don't require conversion. If you let the IMM software do the "conversion" it just creates a copy of the original and gives it an .MP3 extension, hence wasting your hard-disk space by having 2 copies of the same file!

The recording capabilities with IMM firmware are up to 160k for voice & radio and up to 320k for line-in. UMS software caps it at 96k for all sources. No, the iRivers DON'T get power from the USB, they still use battery power while connected.

I can access my ifp899 (UMS software) on Linux, but there are issues with iRiver/Linux depending on the kernel version. I'm using Mandrake 10 without problems but 9.2 wouldn't play ball. Knoppix also wouldn't talk to it, but Ubuntu detected it straight away! There is IMM-equivalent software for the iRivers under Linux but I haven't quite sussed it yet.

Thanks to yane and antz.

I read in another thread that the iFP's recordings also have a 16kHz lowpass. No big deal for the majority of low-mid quality recording I'd be doing, and I guess expecting super high quality recording from a device like this is unreasonable.

Interesting notes about the Linux compatibility. I've been planning on switching from Knoppix, possibly to Ubuntu.

The linux compatibility is what made me change to Mandrake 10, because 9.2 wouldn't work with it for me. There's an issue relating to iRiver's implementation of UMS and Linux's ability to detect removal, it just won't unmount. Under 9.2 I could mount it and use it, but then had to re-boot because it wouldn't unmount. I tried Knoppix without success and then tried Ubuntu. Ubuntu detected it straight away and worked fine, but I had other issues with Ubuntu so I tried Mandrake 10. It's been doing my head in since I got the iRiver, I was having to boot into Windoze to use it and I'd really prefer to use Linux, so I was glad to get it working! Unfortunately I'm too green on Linux (yet) to sort it but I gather it could have been made to work in 9.2 with various fixes and rebuilding of kernels. Just be aware that you may have to do some fiddling.

Oddly enough Mandrake 9.2 (and 10) worked perfectly well with my other USB devices, no issues at all.

I've been reading the thread on the 16kHz low-pass on recordings. I hadn't noticed it in practice but I'm not young enough to have super-high frequency hearing. When you're out & about there's background noise so I'd think it'd be hard to notice anyway! In mitigation, the iRiver does make superb recordings, to my ear, even at relatively low bitrate settings. The 96kHz cap on UMS firmware isn't as bad as I expected, though it is noticeable and annoying. Some of the competing products are also limited to 128k-ish, I notice.

I think you'll be pleasantly surprised how good the iRivers sound if you get one, even the earphones supplied are reasonable, though I'd recommend replacing them. I've listened to other players since and they just don't equal iRiver IMO.

Yesterday I bought an iFP-890. I really like it (Yes I know it's an old model now).
I have some questions I can't find answer for, perhaps somone here knows about this:

* 1. Firmware: "-. EU version(V1.30) has lower Audio output level(16 ohm, 15mW ) according to it's regulation in France.". Is it a problem to use US version 1.29 instead if I don't want this outpout level limit? Can this lead to character set problems, or problem to use with swedish version of Win XP?

* 2. This is from the tech-specifications for iFP-890:
"(L)18 mW + ®18 mW (16 Ohm) max. Volume
(L)12 mW + ®12 mW (32 Ohm) max. Volume"
My Sony headphones has an impedance of 24 Ohm. Would I get louder output with 16 Ohm headphones? I use Mp3gain at 92 dB, max volume in a noisy environment is not very loud, compared with my cheap mp3-cd player, playing the same mp3-gained songs. Raising the volume from 22 to 40 makes no difference, is it the french regulation or my headphones' fault?

* 3. Do 24 Ohm headphones consume more battery-power than lower Ohm's? (sorry, kind of off-topic question perhaps?)

I'm sorry for my stupid newbie questions in the last post.

Now I've switched to firmware v 1.29 (us). The difference in output level was significant. Now the volume raises all the way up to 40, and that's too loud as max volume should be. I haven't seen any language problems.

So I found some answers, but I'm still curious about question number 3.