I'm used to getting premium sound from my desktop PC. However, I've recently replaced it with a laptop (IBM Thinkpad T42, Pentium M 1.7GHz), whose sound chip isn't really up to the job when outputting through a set of HQ speakers (apart from with foobar2000 and headphones, with plenty of DSP!).

Options for improving sound output quality to a desirable level (think EMU 0404 ~ TI Burr Brown DAC's) are basically restricted to either a USB type product (e.g. M-Audio Transit), or a PCMCIA solution like EMU 1616 (althought that is very expensive).

What are people using to get optimum sound from their laptops? What's the most cost-effective, and what gives the highest-fidelity sound?

I would also be interested in the answer to this. I currently have a Sigmatel C-Major that I'm not very happy with.

I used a Creative Extigy and it worked for me. I have seen it pooh-poohed here. But, I have seen physics, gravity and the rising sun pooh-poohed here, too, so YMMV.

Yes, well we all know gravity is a myth perpatrated by 'the man' to keep us down!

i'd take the phones output. run into a nice small 10W tube amp (EL84 would be my bet) and a pair of fullrange speaker from Fostex (FE103/108/127/F120) or Jodan (JX92) or Adire (FR125) etc. in small 7-10 liter boxes and be done with it. it aint portable though. if oyu want portable i'd check out headphone.com or head-fi.com

Garbage in, Garbage out.

I've heared people here praising the Echo Indigo as the ultimate in laptop fidelity. Do a search and check out if the specs suit you.

Echo Indigo site

The Echo line of products are all excellent and I would recommend them over the M-Audio stuff and the Creative stuff.

wow, that card looks great! i actually just got the ibm t41 about a year ago, and i love it, but i too have been looking for a way to upgrade my sound output quality. unfortunatly, $200 is quite a bit too expensive for me. could i find still a decent quality pc card slot sound card for significantly cheaper than this echo indigo card? what would you recommend?

is there an audio out other than the phones out?

If he used a USB soundcard.

So far the only options I've seen are:

1. E-MU 1616M - nice, with an external box and Cardbus, but half the price of my laptop on its own!

2. M-Audio Transit USB - nice idea, but the thought of a tinny silver box hanging out of my PC isn't really appealing, and I don't know if the DAC's are up to the job.

3. This Echo Digital thing. Awfully expensive though.

Ideally, a scaled down version of the 1616 would be cool - 2 channel output, BB DAC's, a sophisticated DSP, etc etc...

I'm surprised there haven't been more responses - come on ppl

You could consider a Waveterminal U24 which goes for under $200. I haven't heard it myself but have seen recommendations.

Well, boojum's suggestion for an Extigy is plausible.
No matter what everyone said about Creative, the Extigy is still a good one for the price.

Try this:

http://www.turtlebeach.com/site/products/a...ge/indetail.asp

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?...107#DetailSpecs

The only gripe anyone gives around here with the creative cards (well, besides their sometimes "creative" marketing) is that they resample everything to 48khz, which sucks for playing back 44.1khz content such as CD-audio. Note that DVDs and most other audio are recorded in 48khz anyhow! In practice, as far as I know, no one has been able to abx resampling artifacts on anything other than test tones.

I use creative cards all the time, mostly for their EAX support in games. I don't think a little resampling ever really hurt anyone. If its just for music, you'd be best served using the onboard whatever and buying some good canalphones and perhaps a headphone amp. The sound card is secondary.

I can ABX some of the samples at http://www.pcabx.com/product/ct4830/index.htm (IIRC, at least some of the trumpets).

Those are for an old SB Live card. I believe resampling algorithms have improved with Audigy cards, but I couldn't say for sure.

There are other extreme test signals (such as the famous udial sample at http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....indpost&p=98252 )
where resampling on Creative cards gets clearly audible. However, this is not a very real-world type sample.

'Fraid not. Consider the Transit instead for good value at this price. I have heard the Extigy. The analog output is not good at all.

No, there are other factors, adc and opamps foremost, affecting analog output.

I should have thought that music demands a higher level of fidelity than games, but de gustibus non disputandum est.

I would disagree with this. Onboard sound cards generally have a very poor signal to noise ratio and often have a lot of interference from other componants in the system. Better cans and amps will only better reveal this noise. In addition, most laptop soundcards have a built in phone amplifier which is extremely low quality. Taking any output from that, even into a better amplifier, will only be taking the low quality output and making it louder.

A good card, such as the Echo Indigo has high quality DACs, low latency, solid drivers, and a solid headphone amplifier. Suddenly $180 for a sound card doesn't seem like such a bad investment. It drives my Etymotic ER-4s phones just fine. Same thing with Grados and Sennheisers.

But that's just my opinion

I was reading a review of Echo Indigo on Stereophile - it seems that the OEM sound chip on the laptop they were using wasn't actually that bad...!

If I were in the sound card industry, I would be doing something to address the demand for HD/HQ sound from laptops. Creative turn out bearable products, but they aren't discerning enough for anyone who knows what they're talking about.

Looks like we'll just have to wait and see...

that turtle beach audio advantage is more in my price range. any opinions on it?

What speakers are you going to be driving? Have you tried the Thinkpad outputting to an amplifier? It may be a lot better when not under load...

As someone said, it matters just how you want to use it. If driving a "real" stereo, you might want to look at a stream receiver like slimp3, rio-receiver, etc. Since their main purpose is music they shouldn't skimp too much on the audio quality. Since they run off your network you don't have to plug it into your laptop evertime you come home (presumably you bought a thinkpad for the portability)

Is firewire a good solution?

If it is look into the TerraTec 7.1 Firewire.

I'd definetly go for Firewire. More stable connection, less latency (and less cpu load) than usb.

I agree. Keep in mind that the smaller firewire connection doesn't provide bus power, whereas the big one does.

I just ordered it at newegg, I will post a review on this thread next week when I get it.

I have a dell inspiron 6000 and can't wait to bypass that sigmatel sound...

Not for a T-42 without firewire.

Affordable = Transit. It works for me, but i'm no audiophile. It cleaned things up, and it takes a standard USB A-B cable (like most USB printers use) so you can change from the 6' cord sent to something smaller if you want.

I hear thats a great USB pod.

Headroom MicroDAC.
google on it.
Same DACs as in EMU 1212m or Benchmark Dac1. Not cheap though.

As promised, here is my review of Turtle Beach's Audio Advantage Micro.

Installation was simple, pop in the cd, and plug in the usb device. Done in a minute and a quick reboot. However. I suspect you dont even need to add the extra softward and can do fine with the windows drivers.

I own an Inspiron 6000, which is known in Dell circles for having a low hiss during headphone playback. Not the case with the AA Micro. There is no hiss, but I can tell when the device is muted or not. Its a tiny difference, either way.

Playback was tested with foobar2000 and yes, the sound is much cleaner, the bass more apparent and the highs more defined than with the Sigmatel sound. Getting rid of the hiss also helped. At first I was annoyed with the output and then realized the device has a setting you need to change to optimize playback and I had it on "2 speaker output" so I switched it to "headphones" and my grado sr60's really sounded quite good. I ripped the entire Coldplay album "X&Y" to MPC and it was pretty crystal clear from what I heard.

Overall, for less than 30 bucks (23 at Newegg) you can really improve your laptop sound with a device the size of a usb key. It might not be the most amazing sound quality you audiophiles have ever heard, but IMO its quite close. The USB output really makes a difference.

Overall, ease of use, superior output, especially over a built in laptop

I tried this Turtle Beach Micro on my T42 and the audio out from this thing has more noise (hiss) than the built-in audio. It does make a nice optical out, but then you need an external DAC, etc. So, my recommendation - stay away unless you need the optical. Also, the usb connection sticks out and makes it more difficult to have this on my lap.

fyi. my T42 feeds a Xin Supermacro V3 headphone amplifier and sounds great with the built-in audio. At the moment I forget which sound card IBM uses in this thing, but I'm guessing it is common to all T42's. If not, maybe I lucked out with the sound quality.

I agree that the usb functionality will require you to keep your legs totally under your lap, but the same goes for any kind of usb soundcard.

I really dont hear the hiss you speak of. I used to have a hiss in my Dell, which drove me to get the TB Micro, and its not registering here. I'm using SR60's, which are pretty top notch headphones, and I'm not hearing a hiss at all. Just for kicks I got my portable headphones, mx-400's, and I'm still not hearing a hiss. I'm only hearing the same sound you would hear to indicate headphones are connected while the sound is muted and the output device is on. Also, this little device is awesome when connected to a receiver. I hooked it up to our Onkyo receiver today and my friend thought it was our DVD player playing my Coldplay cd but no, it was my laptop playing the ripped cd on foobar in mpc format.

EDIT: For the hell of it, I played no sounds and turned the volume to the max, still no hiss to speak of, then I installed it on my desktop, still no hiss. I'm sorry, I dont hear a hiss at all.

does the tb aa micro resample audio seperately from you soundcard, or better yet, does it allow you to playback 44.1k audio w/o resampling? afaik, my soundcard poorly resamples audio to 48k, so i have fb2k set to resample for me. if i got the tb micro, would i still need to do this?

I think we're underrating the quality of the T42's internal sound chip/codec. After connecting it to my (not unreasonably powerful amp/speakers) and cranking up the volume all the way, there is hardly a hint of hiss! With the right set of DSPs applied in foobar (in a suitable order), I'm getting surprisingly good sound. The T41 I use at work isn't quite as good though.

I have no dsp's, no preamp, nothing special set on my fb2k, and the micro does 48khz max but its outputting my sound just fine with no adjustment, no resampling, nothing.

So yes, it allows you to playback 44.1k audio w/o resampling.

i'd be curious to hear more reviews on the tb aa micro. do you guys know of another respectable forum that is more suited to opinions on these kinds of perpherals?

If you're not concerned about latency (ie. you're not producing music), I'd say that the interface doesn't matter. And USB is cheaper than Firewire and PCMCIA.

If you're in for a compact solution, PCMCIA is the way to go, but probably also the most expensive.

When it comes to quality, I'd recommend Echo Audio. You can get a used Indigo (they aren't produced anymore), which is only line out.
You can also get the Indigo IO which also has line in and is still in production.

Right now I have an M-Audio FW410 (firewire), which sounds good but isn't very robust in my experience.

For a few weeks now, I have had a Turtle Beach Audio Advantage USB plugged into my desktop PC and much prefer its sound over the mainboard integrated solution. Cleared up all the issues I was having with extraneous noises during disk access or whenever something was happening on my LCD monitor. Only sound quality issue I have with it is a bit of hardness in the high end when listening at mid to high volume. For that matter, could be my speakers (Cambridge Microworks).

If I were doing it again, however, I'd get a more complete USB sound solution: something with a line in and separate outputs for speakers and phones. I also have a TV board in my PC and there is no way to feed the sound through the TB USB device. For now, TV sound comes from the PC speaker. Also, the TB device pops like a mofo whenever the PC goes into/comes out of sleep mode.

TB does appear to be an ideal solution for a laptop because it just plugs in like a USB storage key; very small and neat. For my desktop, having now seen the advantage of an external sound solution, I am probably going to replace it with a Creative USB box -- either the Audigy 2 or SB Live! version. The latter is only a few more bucks than the Turtle Beach.

I'd be interested in seeing RMAA tests done on the Turtle Beach Audio Advantage USB. It does seem like a neat little device and if it tested out well I'd probably buy one. Could somebody test it and post results?

It's cheap, that's for sure. I bought one the other day. It installed perfectly. It works well for headphones. It could use a bit more power. I have to turn off Replaygain to really be able to drive a pair of decent headphones. I don't hear any electronic interference or hiss.

My only complaint is that the volume control will change the output level on the optical output. I would prefer to have that be a fixed level, since I run that into my living room stereo.

Still for the price, it's hard to complain.

Edit: I also have the Inspiron 6000.

Really? I'm using a 6000 as well and I find the power more than enough, too much even. I have to put the AA Micro at half wave volume and half main volume to listen comfortably with headphones. Output to a stereo is also crystal clear.

Hi

Terratec have also Aureon 5.1 USB MKII
That is an external USB.

They have better sound than Creative products before...
I have not tried this one but..
Any feedback anyone.

BR
Tormod

You find it loud enough when using replaygained files that are reduced by -9db? If that's the case, then all I can say is that I listen to my music louder. Now, with replaygain disabled, it does have enough power.

maybe your headphones have a higher impedance indybrett. dosen't that lower the final volume. nevertheless, i think i like what im hearing about this little thing. ill seriously consider getting it. thanks for the opinions.

Yep. I'm listening to "Fix You", a Coldplay track at -9.59db right now and my volume levels are at half capacity, both on wave and main. Its perfect volume for me, any louder and its too much and I have very good hearing, believe me. I've been looking around the forums that discuss the AA Micro and they all say that the Micro is too loud to even put your headphones on at maximum level without experiencing pain.

The best thing about this little device is that no matter how many times I plug it in or remove it, its changes the mixer settings to the exact volume levels I had before so I never even have to look at the control panel. When I remove it, it reverts to my Sigmatel sound volume levels immediately so I can let others listen to through the speakers. Overall, its really a good little investment for the money if you want much better laptop sound. However, to everybody else, this is output only.

Another little thing to potential buyers, if you dont like to talk to strangers, too bad. If you get this device, people will be asking "whats that?" whereever you go. I go to class, cafes, libraries, and everybody seems to be drawn to the blue LED on the device that indicates its working. (turns red when its on digital out mode) Complete strangers come up to me and ask what I'm using and I think I've explained it about 10 times since I bought it last week. One guy sitting next to me in the library asked if he could have a listen and he was so impressed (had a small Sony Vaio) that he said he was going to buy one.

Hopefully Turtle Beach will have a new device that supports full stereo line in as well so people can use VOIP on their laptops with the benefit of mic input through USB, which is much clearer than anything you will find in a laptop. (My Dell's mic input has really bad hiss too)

It seems that I got a bad Turtle Beach Micro. For the price, I guess it was a reasonable gamble.

The soundcard on my T42 is shown in the device list as a SoundMAX Integrated Digital Audio, manufactured by Analog Devices. Thankfully, I'm happy with this onboard sound. [T42/foobar->Zin Supermacro-3->Senn HD650]

RMA that puppy, you paid for it.

I agree. You gotta RMA it.