Okay, there is another thread about amp & speaker combos active right now, but i figured that my requirements are very different and that i therefore should better start a new thread instead of confusing the other one.

So, here's the facts rundown:

* maximum budget for amp + speakers is 2200euro. This does not mean that i *have* to spent that amount. If i can get away with less, good :)

* the combo will be used in a pub. So, most listeners will be "off-axis".

* the area which should be covered is aprox 70m² (70 square-meters)

* because of the room-size i asume that its better to use 4 speakers instead of 2. Reason is that coverage should be balanced - with this i do mean that i would like the volume to be constant at various positions in the room.

* the music will be played at low volume. So, it will be more about background-atmosphere without disturbing talks.

* i dont want boomy bass and "crystal clear" trebles. So, i would prefer speakers which don't color the sound much.

* the speakers will have to be mounted at the room ceiling(excludes extremely heavy and large speakers)

* the amp will simply be connected to a PC with a soundcard. So, the audio-source will not be phono, DVD, etc.

_______________________________________


Any help or proposals would be greatly appreciated, because i'm a real noob in this department ;-) I'm aware that the amp is a more easy choice, so i guess this is more about which speakers to use. Thanks for helping out.

- Lyx

I'm hardly a professional, but I've heard good things about the JBL JRX100 series. Check out http://www.jblpro.com, look under portable audio. If you want to spend a little more money you could look at the MPro series.

For basic coverage you could go for 4 x JRX115. You might be interested in the JRX115i version which has hooks to be hung from the ceiling. One JRX115 costs ca. 350€.

I assume you have a squarish room and you want to put a speaker in each corner (dunno if that is a good idea). You could think about replacing two of the JRX115 with JRX125. They have two 15" woofers (instead of one) which are fed with different frequencies. JBL calls this a "built-in subwoofer". I don't think it would be a good idea to put subs in all four corners. One JRX125 will set you back ca. 470€.

Both can eat lots of wattage and can go pretty loud if you want to. Most amps I've seen only do stereo (the ones that do more channels also cost a whole lot more) so you will need two.

Sounds like i will need "slightly more" than 2000 because of the amplifiers. The idea to use only 2 speakers for bass is interesting.

Concerning amps - i've noticed that as well. I find it funny that two 2ch amplifiers do cost less than a similiar 4ch amplifier. Damn, i shouldn't had given away that 4ch amplifier which i owned about 7 years ago - would be useful now.

However - it appears to me like in terms of wattage those speakers may be overkill for "low-volume background-music" in a 70m² room? Or am i wrong there?

From the specs you only gain 5Hz in the lower end if you go for the JRX125. I suppose the extra woofer will be usefull if you play it loud, but for background music at lower volumes I think you will be fine with the JRX115. A mobile DJ will have fun with 2 JRX125.

Makes sense. But counting 4 of those together, that would mean 1000watts (which one of course would never fully utilize) for a 70m² room. Do you think thats necessary for "low-volume background-music" in such a room? (i'm not really experienced when it comes to speaker setups in large rooms)

I recommend an AudioSource brand amp like AudioSource Amp Two: review 1, review 2. They're very reasonably priced and good amps. I imagine only one would generate sufficient driving power for your place.

For speakers I recommend Infinity Primus or Beta. See this table. I have to admit I also care that the speaker be good looking -- there're a lot of very high quality speakers out there that look like crap. That should not mean you would be shelling out a lot of money for the design and compromise on quality (like Bang & Olufsen products). Because there're good quality, reasonably priced and good looking speakers out there (like the ones by Infinity) you can have it all. If you have money you can also have look at the Magneplanar speakers from Magnepan. I heard good things about them. Their sound reproduction is based on an entirely different approach.

Infinity brand would be easier to locate in Germany, since it's a European brand AFAIK. I googled and found out that Magnepan is distributed by the following folks:

Edit: I don't know if these speakers are optimal for a bar environment. For that you might want to look for something more rugged (to resist drinks + brawls ).

AudioReview is also good for all sorts of reviews.

I'm sorry, I have no idea about the wattage issue. The website says max SPL 128dB which I'm sure you want to steer clear of if you want to encourage conversation (never mind the distortion).

Edit: one of the places I used to frequent (probably around your size, but rather long and narrow) uses 4 self-built units which are hung from the ceiling. While they seem less rugged than those portable PA units, they seem to be doing just fine up there. Add steel-grilles and they might survive flying glasses and bottles. Perhaps one of your guests is a DIY-guy and would like to earn some free beer. Check out http://www.visaton.de. But in the end you will probably spend around the same as you would for the JBLs.

Another manufacturer that receives lots of praise is Mackie. An interesting onlinestore is http://www.thomann.de which gives a good overview of the market (see "PA/Live-Equipment").

@atici
Thanks for the advice. Infinity definatelly looks interesting, and i've also heard good things about them before on ha.org.

The audiosource amp two does look sweet, but also difficult to purchase in germany. I tried ebay and similiar sites, but with no luck :-(

I will need to play a little catch-up in amp-knowledge about what i need to keep in mind when hooking two speakers to one channel of an amp.

In this thread, Cerebus seems to like Cambridge Audio 340A Amp. Here is one place that sells them in Germany.

if you want to get crystal clear sound, forget about those live-pa systems. they only have bass and highs but no mids (due to their construction). some people may disagree but i don't like the sound of such speakers.

my recommendation would be, get 4 nice studio-monitors.
it may be a bit crazy but let me explain

the problem with normal speakers is that they are unamped and don't have a linear frequency response. as you said, you need more amplifiers and the cost a lot of money.

to get to the point here's my recommendation:
- get a high-quality soundcard (for example emu 0404 or 1212m, i got a 1212m and i'm very satisfied with it)
- get a mixing desk (don't know how to translate "mischpult" ), where you can distribute the signal from the soundcard to your speakers.
- a good not too expensive monitor is the Yamaha MSP5, which is an active-monitor and costs 219 euros at www.musik-produktiv.de

i hope i could help a bit, if you have further questions just ask

@maverick

The idea is interesting. However, i do indeed have some questions ;)


Why do i need a high-quality soundcard? To reduce distortion? In that case i highly doubt that the difference between a good solid midrange card, and a high-end card is audible in a pub (high noisefloor) when played at low volume.


Hmm, i'm not familiar with monitors. You said that they are already preamped. What kind of jacks are used for input? If its plain simple "chinch" then why couldn't i just get a soundcard with two line-outs, and directly fed them to the speakers via properly shielded cables and just balance the signal directly from the soundcard-mixer?

- Lyx

I recommend you check the yellow pages for "Veranstaltungstechnik" and have someone come over. They will probably say you need to invest in excess of 8000€, but they should be able to answer basic questions about the dimensioning of output power and speaker placement.

I think one shouldn't underestimate the noise inside a bar, and I'm afraid the Yamaha monitors won't deliver enough output without seriously distorting.

Whether one is to use a PA type system or use equipment for your private home is mostly a question of ruggedness and reliability. If they are not mounted under the ceiling people will put their glasses on them. Even if you put them out of public reach, the staff will still use them as tables. PAs are designed to take the abuse. Someone spills a beer... just let it dry. No need to worry about the cherry-wood. Some idiot pulls on the speaker cable? No problem, the cables are thick and durable, the connectors lock in place (with correct polarity), and the connector-plate won't come loose because it is firmly screwed into the thick wood.

Of course you also pay for this ruggedness and sound quality looses some priority. On the other hand, you will never be able to give a hord of talking, drinking and laughing people the HiFi experience. I would choose my soundcard with stability aspects in mind (so avoid Creative for their crappy drivers).

ok that depends on taste...
i absolutely love my emu. the sound quality is great and i'm now used to the "professional" connectiors instead of the consumer cinch and stereo-jack connectors.

the thing with the professional symmetric jacks is that you will get an 100% undistorted signal.
your point is absolutely logical that nobody will hear a difference in a pub. but you wanted a professional solution



with the emu-cards you will be able to do that.
the monitors have, like all others, symmetrical XLR inputs. you can hook them up to the emus with a symmetrical 6,3mm stereo jack to XLR-cable.

unfortunatly, wikipedia will help me a bit, here's a little description about XLR cables

but to get to the point, you really can feed the monitors with the signal from the soundcard, you only have to get an adaptor for the XLR plugs.

i'm not really into mixing desks but i think it will be quite useful to have one. you can hook up more speakers, you can even add a subwoofer if you want. you are also more flexible with the source. you can hook up a cd-player or any other component next to your pc.

the monitors are not preamped, they are fully amped and even have two seperate amplifiers, one for the woofer and one for the tweeter.

i forgot to mention that the price for the monitors is for ONE monitor only

@gecko

it's true what you say.

lyx will have to visit some specialised dealers and listen to the speakers to get a picture about how much power he needs.

if monitors don't fit he can exchange them with active pa-speakers which should cost roughly the same.

Right, and it would add a master-volume control, so that when changing the volume, you dont have to readjust all channels. In case i will go for the active monitor solution, i will probably first do it without the mixer-desk(to minimize initial costs) and then later add a mixer-desk.


Heh, i was aware of that :) One question which i was asking myself is if you think that 4x MSP5 are sufficient for 70m² at background volumelevels? Or should i go for more watts? If yes, any proposals(since you seem to be into monitors)?

Thats what i was thinking when reading the MSP5 specs.


Very interesting points. However, in our case, i dont expect the above to be a problem, because:

- the speakers *will* have to be mounted at the ceiling. Both because of sound-coverage reasons as well because of the reasons which you did mention
- we can fix the cable-problem the same way we will fix it with all the other cables(cat-6, power, etc.) - by hiding them under cable-channels.


We will choose almost all PC-tech with stability and durability as top priority. Additionally, care will be taken in terms of linux-compatibility(the whole thing will run on linux-only). But in case of the speakers, the guests really aren't the enemy because of the above mentioned reasons.

i've listened to the yamahas at my local music-instrument store and they have more power than you'd expect. the thing is that the 67 watts is not the rms value... they have 40 watts with a 400 Hz tone and 27 watts with 10 kHz. for example, my home cinema system has 5 x 50w and is by far not underpowered

the thing with this monitors is that there a no others in this price- and quality-range. you can try behringers but i compared them to the yamahas and they don't sound as clean as the msps...

i recently was in an irish pub in vienna and they had JBL Control 1 (or something like that, they looked like them) speakers for background music. the pub was about 7 x 30 meters. i don't remember how many speakers they had but the volume was ok.

as i mentioned above, you will have to listen to the speakers by yourself. i really think that the JBLs gecko mentioned will be far too overpowered, as you can use them for a disco-like volume. but that doesn't have to mean that they wouldn't do the job in your pub!

quick reply before I go to work, but i would seriously look at Klipsch Heritage, either on ebay or find a set locally. About 4 cornwalls or 4 forte's will SERIOUSLY bring that room down to it's kness. Plus the super high sensitivity will allow you to use say a 50W amp x 4 channels to power the entire room and then some.

That's the best-sounding cheapest solution you can really get, super high efficiency speakers w/ a good amp.

-Joe

Well, the MSP5's were at 220euro x4. Since i wouldn't need an amp, it would be willing to spend up to 500euro per monitor. I've got to say that i DO like the active monitor idea. Both, because of the flat frequency response as well as because of the modular zero-setup installation. When remembering the PA systems i heard on events, then i've got to say that this kind of sound really wouldn't fit into the atmosphere (which will be more warm, comfortable and low-key instead of disco-like).


Well, i have zero experience with monitors and therefore doubt, that i will make a good decision during a quick listen in a shop. I would need to take them home and then have sufficient time to test them there to make a good decision - shops probably will not let me do that. So, i think that i will make a better decision by asking people who do already have experience with monitors and explaining to them the requirements.

The problem with asking some folks from "veranstaltungstechnik" is that we are currently still in the concept phase. Basically, we're currently planning the entire pub on paper to get a detailed analysis about the costs, effort, etc. This is necessary because it would be hard to get funding for the whole thing without knowing how many bucks you need ;-) Therefore, we also haven't made a final decision about the location. We do know how many m² we need because we have done diagrams of the room-layout in multiple-room styles. Thus, we do already know the room-setup but we haven't picked a location yet.
To make it short, asking someone from "veranstaltungstechnik" doesn't make sense *yet* (however, it may make sense to do this at a later stage, just as a safety-check).


My intuition says that the JBLs are overpowered and the MSP5's underpowered for the job. As mentioned above, if it is possible to get aprox. 100watt active monitors for around 500euro with similiar quality, then i would be glad if you could share a recommendation with me.


Sounds very interesting. I'll do some scouting to get more info about them. Thanks for the hint.

edit: sorry to say it but the size and weight of those makes it impossible to mount them at the edges of the room ceiling.

According to various reviews, the Mackie HR624 powered monitors are excellent. Although slightly expensive, they don't push the 500euro limit that far and weight in at 539euro.
The two amps do 100watts LF/40watts HF.
At 11,25kg and 21cm x 33cm x 32cm they are more than suited for mounting them at the ceiling or a wall.
They do have a quite wide sweet-spot, which may help in getting good off-axis sound.

Basically, they do have two drawbacks which dont necessary are indeed drawbacks:
* these monitors may be "too excellent". According to the following review, they are very unforgiving in terms of flaws in recordings. Then again, that may be the price of getting clean uncolored sound. http://emusician.com/speakers/emusic_mackie_hr/

* the lows aren't the deepest ones, because it is designed to be used with a complementary sub. However, since the desired atmosphere in the room isn't a boomy dancehall but more a soft warm and relaxed atmosphere, it may be the case that i dont need an additional sub. And i guess its a bit more wise to get good monitors with the option of later adding a sub, instead of trying to get a suboptimal do-it-all monitor.

Opinions? ;-)

You could maybe ask the "Veranstaltungstechniker" if you need 4 speakers at all. Inside a closed room you might be better off with just two speakers hanging above the crowd at an angle. I can think of lots of phasing and cancellation problems. If you do need 4 speakers, maybe you shouldn't hang them like this:

but more like

Only having to pay for 2 speakers will open up a lot more possibilities. (Like moving up to the JBL MPro series tongue.gif or hiding a sub bellow the bar). With strong speakers you also have the option to do some more radical EQing to compensate for room/speaker deficiencies without sacrificing loudness.

My personal experiene at home is that warmth comes from a proper low-end. Imagine "Kristen Barry - Ordinary Life [Cruel Intentions Soundtrack]" without the deep fuzz. At an (Irish?) pub you may play some more traditional music. Taps on an accoustic guitar sound a little dry without the quiet but present thud. However I don't know how that would translate into a bar environment. Surely you will not want to kick your guests in the belly. Attention-getting bass performance might be obtrusive.

Also consider that studio monitors are usually designed to be listened to at short distances.

BTW, I found this on the Mackies:
Read a little more (on the bottom). But hey, you pay more than twice as much, they should be better!
edit: fixed ASCII-Art :-P

Concerning "veranstaltungstechniker" - by accident, i personally do know someone like this. But i wouldn't trust his advice because this biased guy is full of prejudices and partially doesn't know about stuff which i would consider essential for his job *shrugs*. I got into an argument with him more than once and since then audio as a topic has been a tabu for me when he's around.

About the 2 vs. 4 speaker setup. I'm not sure. Of course it would be possible to pick speakers with enough output for the entire room. But maybe the most important requirement - even more than soundquality - is that the volume should be evenly distributed in the room.

The hint about how to mount 4 speakers is of course absolutely right. Thanks for reminding me about that.

Concerning speakers. Well, i'm in a stupid situation now - entry-level monitors are meant for close- to midrange, BUT do have an uncolored sound. Farfield monitors are unaffordable to me.

PA speakers are very affordable and deliver the necessary coverage - but from my experience sound very colored - something which i do not like. Additionally, they are more rugged than necessary.

Some other speakers mentioned look sweet, but are either too weak or too heavy and large for wall-mounting.

*sigh* However, even though i'm really uncertain and confused now, this has been one of the most interesting threads for me concerning audio-equipment, and i've learned alot in just 1day - so, thanks to everyone who has replied so far :-)

- Lyx

Hi. I would look at this amp.

http://www.nadelectronics.com/hifi_amplifi...352_framset.htm

Lots of current capability. 4 speakers can cause sharp fluctuations in power requirements. It is well reviewed.

For speakers, I would look at four of these.

http://www.nadelectronics.com/hifi_amplifi...352_framset.htm

Neutral and high dispersion.Again, well regarded.

i don't know how the shops are where you live. i'm about once a week at my local music store because my father or myself needs some advice from the keyboard-guy or whatever.

i had the possibility to try out varius equipment (for example 4 microphones) and they usally don't take a fee for it. for more expensive things, or if they don't know you they take 5 % of the price if you DON'T buy it afterwards.

my advice in this matter would be, just find a shop where they sell monitors and ask them if you can listen to them for a few days. usally they will lend you some. in the worst case you will have to pay a small fee.

@kennedy

those two links are the same?

i havn't read read the whole thread but if you still need a speaker recommendation have a look at www.tannoy.com

i use the reveals as studio monitors and i have also heard home speakers and the installation series. they all provide superb sound.

might also be an advantage for you that they have speakon connectors which allows you to use a lot of professional amps like crown XLS which are very affordable and known for their extreme longevity

I don't have any immediate recommendation, but stay away from anything thats meant for home use (too many assumptions about intended use hardcoded into designs). Take PA active speakers, there's loads of them of all sorts, there ARE speakers in PA that are far less colored than highend home stuff. They are also specifically designed for diffuse field. I believe there are complete "club" lines of speakers to pick from.

By going active, you can use symmetric linelevels to quite some distances without any pickups, avoid trouble with speaker cabling and get much better matched amp/speaker combo.

Some quite affordable PA speakers are just amazing, so much so that you'd want them at home, if only not for WAF..

Visit some musicians shop, these guys tend to be friendly chaps and recommend something, or at least talk you out from wrong ideas.

you might also find interesting to read this site:
http://www.lenardaudio.com/education/08_live.html

How about those?:

Yamaha MSR-100
desc. & specs: http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/MSR100/
reviews: http://www.harmony-central.com/Effects/Dat...Monitor-01.html

noteworthy:
- multipurpose PA-speaker. Can be used as monitor as well as for normal use in small clubs
- said to be unusually neutral for a pa-speaker
- dispersion: 90° horizontal / 40° vertical
- well in the budget with aprox 400euro per speaker
- sufficient output

The JBL EONs have a wider vertical dispersion (60° !!!) but i dunno. The tone and language-style in which JBL describes them makes them appear like boomy disco speakers(the kind of PA-speaker which i do not want).

- Lyx

Right you are. My mistake.

Here is the speaker link

http://www.bwspeakers.com/index.cfm/fuseac...el%20DM602%20S3

Right about what I'd look at. I found these too on quick search and almost mentioned them, but didn't want to name any specific models as I don't have experience. I've heard similar design but larger boxes in open air, I *guess* they were MS300, and they were impressive.

Most certainly audition them at volume levels you intend to use them. At low levels only very efficient drivers avoid coloration that resembles "behind the curtain" sound. It may be that larger boxes sound better even at low levels.

And of course, be man on a mission and visit all pubs in your area and watch how they do it. You'll get better idea of what works and what doesn't.

ah, I wanted also to point out that boxes like MSR100 and MS300 represent "relatively recent" new generation of PA speakers, using molded cases. I may be wrong, but I got impression that this molded casing is one important factor in plastic-looking PA speakers becoming popular. New materials making them sturdy yet cheap to produce reduces needed price/performance compromises. So there may be speakers that look the same but don't come close.
And one more thing. Most probably these speakers have "digital" (class-d) amps. Depends on your audiophillness if thats a no go.
Actually, I guess you'd need to calculate up what sort of vertical dispersion you'd need. If you place them at the ceiling, and tilt with goal of getting uniform spl distribution, you'd need to take that into account. And of course, you can't easily place them on their side. The specific room will dictate optimal dispersion. A small crash course with acoustics wouldn't hurt here.

Actually, i have done some diagrams today. 40° vertical dispersion is okay if one stacks two speakers horizontally from a single point per channel(facing outwards from each other in the correct angle to avoid distortion due to overlapping) - however, 60° of course wouldn't hurt, because then there would be no need to place them an their side(why did you mention that one cannot easily do that? Just asking because the MSR100 are built so that they can also be placed on their side, so that they can also be used as stage-monitors. Their shape even is made for just that).

One thing which i ran across when doing the diagrams is: how evil is it to place the two channels at opposite sides of the room(creating a widened stereo-image) and then narrowing the stereofield a bit with a DSP?

- Lyx

If you place MSR's on their side, then you'll have 90deg vertical dispersion and 40degs horisontal (applies to horn mostly I guess) - its sorta beaming, you'll get peaks and valleys of spl in the room and there'll be more places where it sounds bad. And due to unavoidable ceiling/floor reflections then (90deg vertical dispersion) you'll get comb filtering effects that makes it only worse. On stage its a completely different game. You can try blending 2 speakers together, but imho, that would not work too well, you'd face bad lobeing distortions, comb filtering, early reflections, etc. Imo you'd waste too much time on fighting room acoustics and still won't be happy. But I can't say I'm right, I've never been into serious acoustics practically. Its just seems like you'd first create the problem and then try to fix it instead of avoiding trouble in the first place..
I would think that if you can place two speakers into same source spot at angles, then you can place one speaker at normal vertical position. Its not that bad is it. These MSR's are pretty small.

http://www.lenardaudio.com/education/08_live.html
Really, every bit on these edu pages is packed with useful things. Check on the historic perspective, where he shows errors made. It also touches the lobing and comb distortions, also some problems with small club venues (closest to your case).

Imo, small vertical dispersion is a good thing. They use line arrays to reduce vertical dispersion. That helps to equalize sound level perceived over greater distance, reduces reverberant effects and gets more people into near field.
Of course, reverberant rooms reduce critical distance, and I'd think that you'd want to focus on-axis (vertical) response so that hot-spot of higher frequencies due to beaming is where lower frequencies are already in far field. Goal being to equalize perceived frequency response for those off-axis (closer and below speakers axis) and those on-axis but further away. From here imo arises need for optimal vertical dispersion. I don't have idea what it should be or how to determine it, I just imagine that there is some optimal where you can achieve flattest FR over largest area, by combining speaker placement, aiming, their dispersion and DSP equalizing.

I guess you want larger vertical dispersion when you put speakers higher up from the ground and direct at sharper angle towards people, and lower vertical dispersion when speakers are closer and thus more parallel to the ground.

I'd also think of placing pair of speaker into far end of the room, and 2nd pair to the half way of the room, both pairs directed into same direction and covering half of the room each. You'd need delay correction between pairs to blend them together, but my gut feeling tells that this *might* give good results. Afaik such arrangement is used in modern cinemas, larger venues with multiple sound reinforcement systems to keep sound field uniform.

Imo, this is most evil thing to do. Afaik there is zero stereo effect to be listening at in pub anyway, unless you want to focus sound source to the stage, but what you'd get is ruined intelligibility (destroy near field) and wild frequency response fluctuations (excite room modes more), with people halfway between the speakers overwhelmed by spl. Besides, sounds would feel like jumping all over the place around people and actually distract. The only DSP for narrowing the stereofield a bit I would think of is stereo->mono DSP.

"The golden rule - intelligibility improves if sound comes from a single point source". Note that it isn't always best to have 2 spots for speakers - many rooms would benefit if the speakers are actually in single spot together. For eg. in the middle of the side wall, facing away and covering 90degs each.

Of course this all is only my opinion, not even professional one.

According to the diagrams which i've done, this is not necessarily true. Unless i'm missing something.



When the vertical angle is 45° downwards, then no sound points directly towards the ceiling, but only towards the floor (which is carpeted).



In those examples, the article proposes exactly what i was thinking to do - place the speakers in two/four corners to maximize the center-area/full stereo coverage.


Well, according the diagrams which i've done, low vertical dispersion is NO option. The speakers WILL have to be mounted at at least 3,00m height. There will be obstacles in the room with heights up to 2m. If we would go with low vertical dispersion, then we would be lucky if we get "some valeys and spikes" - more probably, valleys would be the norm.


Yep, thats the next "variant" which i was going to try out.



But in that case, you've already given up on stereo and can as well send a pure mono-signal, right?

BTW: i am currently looking at 90° x 90° diffuse-field speakers especially made for background-music as an option.

- Lyx

edit: this pdf does look interesting: http://www.atlassound.com/PDFs/wPaperWideDispersion.pdf

What are those diagrams you refer to?

Perhaps thats okay. But I think 45° angle is too excessive for other reasons. It means focal point would be at same distance from speakers as the height is, 3m from the wall (even closer at ear height). Beyond that point spl would start to drop off quite fast due to both going off-axis and increasing distance, and just below the speaker spl is too high because its both closer, and deeper inside 90° polar response. The idea of optimal vertical dispersion is to make closest people fall into polar response region where *just* enough attenuation occurs to compensate for being too close, focus axis to furthest people, and avoid ceiling reflections at the same time.

Take a look at this: http://www.astralsound.com/vertical_pattern.htm That better explains what I had in mind.

Yes, but these were not room corners. They talked about dance floor and caution not to place speakers to far apart. Because else delays between speakers gets audible. Problems start really become audible sooner if you listen and loudness isn't high.

Of course you can put them into corners. Thats quite typical of pubs, but then, you said you wanted to avoid colorations.

I don't know what you implied as low, but what I had in mind was 40degs vs 90 or 60 relatively, because your ceiling is quite low.

Yes. What kind of stereo do you expect anyway when people sit off-axis, way off sweet spot, don't face the virtual stereo source?

We are only talking about 70m² here. In a square, this would mean 4m to the centre.

Will post more later.

I've settled for the following solution...

Speakers:
4x JBL Control 25, 1x JBL SB-2. The sub has a builtin frequency-splitter with outputs for the speakers. The speakers will be wired in series to the sub. Since the sub is "invisible" to the amp, the load at the amp would be 16ohms.

Amp:
1x Crown XLS402 II. A reliable, flexible and affordable amp in a low-profile no-shit design.

Wires:
I'll probable use 2,5mm wire which should result in a damping factor above 30.

Additional hardware:
1x Terratec Aureon 5.1 USB MkII. I really dislike terratec but unfortunatelly, this unit comes most close to what i want. External, rock-solid linux-support, 3 outputs, low price.

Room dynamics:
Thick carpet on the floor, thick tapestry on the ceiling, almost no metal, almost no glas, mostly "soft" decoration - and unfortunatelly lots of wood.

Speaker placement:
Diagram here

The low coverage on the left and right side is intentional, because i will need two 2x5m corners at which the volume may be lower. The lower coverage in the horizontal view at the "upper" end of the room should less be a problem, because this wall will probably get the majority of reflections(all speaker are more or less pointing towards this side of the room). I will probably narrow the stereofield by about 40% to improve coverage of both channels in problem-zones.

Total costs including wiring:
Aprox. 1200euro excluding taxes.

_________________________________

Thanks to everyone who replied in this thread. The variety of proposed approaches did give me a quite good overview(so, i DO consider also those proposals helpful of which i didn't make use. It helped to improve the "big picture"). Also, this thread was very interesting to me and i learned quite a bit.

Thank you.

- Lyx

i'm very suprised by your decision lyx. could you give a short summary why you will take the passive speakers + amp?

There were multiple reasons:

- PA speakers are meant for.... well PA-use. Which means that there will either be a compromise in soundquality or i will pay extra for the (unneeded) ruggedness.

- Monitors may have nice and great sound - but are meant to sound correct when the listener is at a certain spot. Thus, there is a risk that monitors may sound uggly in diffuse-field scenarios. Without someone already having experience with using monitors in diffuse-field scenarios, i do not want to take the risk of buying speakers which sound great in a few spots, but ugly everywhere else.

- The JBL Control Contractor series is made especially for diffuse-field use in bars and restaurants. If the specs are correct, then their freq-response is very constant over the entire dispersion arc (and still okay even outside of the 90°). They have a slight weakness in the mids, but i think i can solve that with some EQing. While i really like the advantages of active-speakers, i was unable to find powered speakers for diffuse-field use in bars, restaurants, etc which could compete with the Control 25s.

- low total costs

- crown and jbl do provide *lots* of information, specs and howto's for the mentioned producs - thus, increasing the feeling of "safety" and support.

- Easy wiring and mounting at walls and ceilings of the Control Contractor series. Low-profile design.

- I got the hint for this solution by someone who has already experience with installed soundsystems.

thank you very much!

please keep us informed about the project. would be interesting to know how you like your sound system after everything is finished

Interesting solution, thx for sharing. What are your thoughts on the crossover frequency and "localizability" (ger: Ortbarkeit) of the sub? I can imagine that you'd need to set it quite high, since the sats are at -10db at 80Hz allready. Is there a specific reason for not going for "bigger" sats? Or to ditch the sub and get 4x Control 30?

Will do - but that may take between 4-6months. Lots of stuff left to do.


The SB-2 is made especially to "play well" with the Control satellites. Its crossover-frequency is set to create a smooth transition between the sub and the satellites. However, the output of the sub is usually meant to be used with the control 23s. According to JBL, it is possible without problems to use control 25s instead - but either the sub or the satellites(depending on if you wire the sattelites in series or parallel) will need some EQing to balance them against each other. I plan to wire the satellites in series which would make the sub a bit louder than it should be - that way, i only need to lower the freqs of the sub a bit, instead of EQing the entire freq-range of the speakers.

Concerning localizability - the sub isn't localizable. But the volume of course decreases with distance. I'm not certain yet about where to place the sub, because it is also a question of how to wire it easy (the speakers need to go to the sub, and then from the sub to the amp - so the sub should be not too far away from the amp. I'm thinking about either placing it somewhere at the wall at the "upper" side of the room....... or in the middle of the room at the ceiling between the "upper" satelite-pair. Sidenote: the amp will be placed at the "upper" side of the room.


Bigger sats would be overkill. Actually, even the control 23s would already be enough - but i dont like the freq-curve and dispersion stats of the control 23, so i picked "slightly bigger sats than i need".

The control 30s - while making a sub unnecessary - are unaffordable for me at over 700euro each(that would be about 2900euro just for the speakers).

OK, thanks for the info. I was somehow unable to find a price for the Control 30s, but now that I've googled again, I've come up with lots of relevant hits.

It will be interesting to see how this project turns out. Good luck!