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zxc

Aug 26 2005, 20:02

Hi,

I want to buy myself a portable player which supports FLAC files. I've found many threads considering this topic but most of them are not very recent so I just don't know if they are still valid

Well, the most important thing: are those the ONLY portable players supporting FLAC:

# COWON's iAUDIO M3 and iAUDIO X5
# iRiver iHP-120,iHP-140
# Rio Karma

???

hope that's not a difficult question

zxc

rjamorim

Aug 26 2005, 21:36

QUOTE(zxc @ Aug 26 2005, 11:02 PM)

# iRiver iHP-120,iHP-140
# Rio Karma

These are both not being manufactured anymore. And the iHP only supports FLAC using an unofficial firmware.

jcoalson

Aug 26 2005, 23:02

if you're real hard-core you can get an ipod to play FLAC, but otherwise, no, that's it. too bad about rio...

Josh

Buddy Casino

Aug 27 2005, 01:36

But then, the FLAC support of the iAUDIO X5 is supposed to be good, and it is (imho) the best disk-based DAP currently on the market. Just not exactly cheap...

zxc

Aug 27 2005, 11:46

QUOTE(jcoalson @ Aug 27 2005, 06:02 AM)

if you're real hard-core you can get an ipod to play FLAC, but otherwise, no, that's it. too bad about rio...

Josh

well, I think I will pass on this

thx anyway

QUOTE(rjamorim @ Aug 27 2005, 04:36 AM)

QUOTE(zxc @ Aug 26 2005, 11:02 PM)

# iRiver iHP-120,iHP-140
# Rio Karma

These are both not being manufactured anymore. And the iHP only supports FLAC using an unofficial firmware.

I know they can still be found somewere on the net BUT is it a smart idea to buy a device that is not manufactured anymore - considering the possible problems with it (mostly I've been reading about hard drive failures)? I'm not really familiar with most of the things you guys are talking about on this forum but for example is there a risk that in a near future there could ba a problem with the firmware for both iRiver iHP and Rio Karma if they are not produced anymore?

what do you think?

should I consider only iAUDIO?

zxc

davidd

Aug 27 2005, 12:04

I don't think it would be a bad idea, I mean the companies will still support the products if something goes wrong.

I have a iRiver H120 myself and havn't had any problems with it since I bought it, and havn't heard of too many problems with it either

the iAudio X5 is quite nice though, not quite as good as the H100's w/ the rockbox firmware, but still great players (also they could possibly port rockbox to the X5 sometime)

zxc

Aug 27 2005, 15:45

thank you

hope other people will give some thoughts too

another issue:

I want to have the biggest capacity possible. It seams that the biggest HD is 40GB in iAUDIO M3 and in iHP-140. is that correct?
is iAUDIO X5 only 30GB?
and iAUDIO M5 only 20GB?

zxc

legg

Aug 27 2005, 15:53

QUOTE(zxc @ Aug 27 2005, 12:46 PM)

well, I think I will pass on this

thx anyway

from the ipodlinux FAQ:

QUOTE

What if something goes wrong?

Be sure to backup your music before installing iPodLinux! The worst thing that has happened so far is someone lost all of their music, because they didn't back it up before running Apple's restore utility. If anything goes wrong, you can always (no, really) use Apple's handy Firmware Restore Utility (http://www.apple.com/ipod/download/) to reinstall Apple's iPod operating system.

http://www.ipodlinux.org/FAQ

Updating the firmware of a device was a big risk in the past, now it has become something almost trivial and safe.

davidd

Aug 27 2005, 16:41

QUOTE(zxc @ Aug 27 2005, 04:45 PM)

I want to have the biggest capacity possible. It seams that the biggest HD is 40GB in iAUDIO M3 and in iHP-140. is that correct?
is iAUDIO X5 only 30GB?
and iAUDIO M5 only 20GB?

zxc

right now, that is correct. Cowon is supposed to release a 60GB version of the X5 sometime soon though, not sure if bigger M5's will come out though

ToeNipples

Aug 27 2005, 18:04

I say wait if you can. the 60gb x5 is coming, they also need to update the firmware for various minor bugs/missing features (id3 tags!!!) and also the next karma is coming SOME DAY, it's just a matter of when.

Digisurfer

Aug 27 2005, 18:15

QUOTE(ToeNipples @ Aug 27 2005, 06:04 PM)

also the next karma is coming SOME DAY, it's just a matter of when.

Highly doubtful in light of Rio's recent decision. Look around the forum, there was a recent post about it.

davidd

Aug 27 2005, 18:22

yeah, a new player from RIo isn't ever coming sadly

zxc

Aug 28 2005, 11:08

QUOTE(legg @ Aug 27 2005, 10:53 PM)

Updating the firmware of a device was a big risk in the past, now it has become something almost trivial and safe.

well as I sad before - I like to lisen to the music - but not necessary re-programing the device I use. Reading just the begining of this
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....showtopic=30823
made me think that it might not be as "trivial and safe"

QUOTE(Otto42)

iPodLinux works, but isn't at the stage where I'd recommend non-coders using it yet. The problem is that the current implementation is really underutilizing the second processor and a good method to use it for things has not yet been devised. You could make it do anything, in theory, but only in the kernel code. I think most people would prefer not to hardcode it to decode audio only.

what is the status on this NOW ?

QUOTE(ToeNipples)

I say wait if you can. the 60gb x5 is coming

can somebody else confirm this?

And I would still like other people to comment on buying not manufactured player

They seams to be better that iAudio but I just dont know if I shoud buy them in this situation...

thx

zxc

legg

Aug 28 2005, 12:34

I must be honest, I haven't tried it myself as I don't own an ipod. However, you do have the option to choose how to "boot up" the ipod on power on, it will show a menu letting you select wether to start the device using apple's firmware or ipodlinux.

As for trivial and safe I meant that these days the probability of causing permanent damage to the device is almost null. If anything goes wrong you can flash it again with the original firmware.

project status: http://www.ipodlinux.org/Project_Status

If I had an ipod I'd try it no doubt

zxc

Aug 28 2005, 12:59

hmmm...
I dont have iPod too but... hmm...
will it work on PC?
would I be able to us it as a HD?

zxc

davidd

Aug 28 2005, 13:07

all current iPods work on pc's. the itunes sfotware, if you want to use that only works on Win2000/XP though

the iPod can be used as a external hardrive, but only for data (the music is stored in random folders on the ipod and requires 3rd party programs to copy to a pc in correct folders and stuff)

dobz

Aug 28 2005, 13:33

Does flac or any other format on the iadudio X5 playback gaplessly?

The reason i ask is that anybody who wants to use high quality playback such as flac, i'd assume would also be interessted in playback as it was intended, like cd, GAPLESS..

I often wonder about how friendly the navigation and folder structure is, also as somebody above mentions theres no support for id3? seems like a very basic feature to overlook, if id3 dont work i guess you can forget about any tag support with flac?

i dont think i have to pimp rockbox but i'll give it a quicky anyway

Rockbox it quite simply works how you want it to..

Rockbox+H140 = how playback was intended...

zxc

Aug 28 2005, 13:52

QUOTE(davidd @ Aug 28 2005, 08:07 PM)

all current iPods work on pc's. the itunes sfotware, if you want to use that only works on Win2000/XP though

I know that, my question was about new ipodlinux firmware - will it work also on PC? I'm not familiar with linux at all

QUOTE(davidd @ Aug 28 2005, 08:07 PM)

the iPod can be used as a external hardrive, but only for data (the music is stored in random folders on the ipod and requires 3rd party programs to copy to a pc in correct folders and stuff)

I don't understand

Is mp3 or FLAC no a data file? what's the difference? and what 3rd party programs does it require?

yes, and gapless:
what does it mean 1/10th sec. gap between tracks in x5? will I hear a gap in DJ's mix?

zxc

davidd

Aug 28 2005, 13:55

audio files are data, so I guess I should of reworded that, I meant just music files weren't then.

and atleast with the official firmware, you need software to copy music from the ipod to a pc, not sure about with ipodlinux though. ilounge.com has a guide in their ipod 201 articles section about how to get music off the ipod

legg

Aug 28 2005, 17:00

They have an installer for windows, so I assume YES:
http://www.ipodlinux.org/Downloads

Funny thing, there's no Linux installer.

darin

Aug 28 2005, 22:40

I just bought an IAudio X5 which plays FLAC and I'm really happy with it. I liked it so much I exhanged it for the upper model which costs a $90 more. I was going to go with the ipod route and do a hacked firmware, but then you have to depend on developers to get the bugs out, upgrade, ect. That's really cool in itself, but I've been in the xbox mod scene for a few years and from experience those updates can take months and even then they burn themselves out and never get a final build.

zxc

Aug 29 2005, 15:22

the same here

All this sounds nice but still I'm very reluctant about "hacked" firmware - I don't want to wind up with player that wont play FLAC. I've ben reading many forums and it seams that very often iPod has problems even with connecting to PC...
don't know, need more information...

QUOTE(darin @ Aug 29 2005, 05:40 AM)

I just bought an IAudio X5 which plays FLAC

does it suport more than level 2 compresion?
what's the situation with gapless?

zxc

unfortunateson

Aug 29 2005, 15:49

QUOTE(dobz @ Aug 28 2005, 12:33 PM)

Rockbox+H140 = how playback was intended...

davidd

Aug 29 2005, 16:05

the X5 does support all levels of FLAC compression with a official firmware update (they might even be shipping with that update by now)

and no, the X5 can't do gapless

zxc

Aug 29 2005, 16:27

QUOTE(davidd @ Aug 29 2005, 11:05 PM)

and no, the X5 can't do gapless

is the gap ACTUALLY big enough to hear it? (in DJ's mix)

QUOTE(davidd @ Aug 29 2005, 11:05 PM)

the X5 does support all levels of FLAC compression with a official firmware update (they might even be shipping with that update by now)

you mean that old firmware did not support all levels?

zxc

rjamorim

Aug 29 2005, 16:31

QUOTE(unfortunateson @ Aug 29 2005, 06:49 PM)

QUOTE(dobz @ Aug 28 2005, 12:33 PM)

Rockbox+H140 = how playback was intended...

Soon people will be claiming RockBox is the Foobar of hardware players

davidd

Aug 29 2005, 16:42

you mean that old firmware did not support all levels?

when the player first came out, the firmware that was shipped with it only supported levels 0-2. I know they did release a firmware update to support all levels a very short time after

DreamTactix291

Aug 29 2005, 17:36

QUOTE(rjamorim @ Aug 29 2005, 05:31 PM)

QUOTE(unfortunateson @ Aug 29 2005, 06:49 PM)

QUOTE(dobz @ Aug 28 2005, 12:33 PM)

Rockbox+H140 = how playback was intended...

Soon people will be claiming RockBox is the Foobar of hardware players

I remember proclaiming that in the MisticRiver IRC channel within an hour of using Rockbox

QUOTE(davidd @ Aug 29 2005, 05:05 PM)

the X5 does support all levels of FLAC compression with a official firmware update (they might even be shipping with that update by now)

and no, the X5 can't do gapless

Not yet but there is a Rockbox port in progress so it should one day.

ChangFest

Aug 29 2005, 18:27

QUOTE(rjamorim @ Aug 29 2005, 02:31 PM)

Soon people will be claiming RockBox is the Foobar of hardware players

Well foobar2000 is easy to find and free and an iRiver Hxxx is not. Shucks.

darin

Aug 30 2005, 14:52

QUOTE

level 2 compresion?
what's the situation with gapless?

zxc

Yes...it supports all levels of compression for FLAC. Some of my files are level 1, orthers are level 5, and other files I have are level 8. The firmware update is very easy and that was the first thing I did when I got mine. It's a program you download onto your pc and just simply run it and it does the rest while your X5 pluged into the PC. I don't think it supports gapless, but I was lestioning to a DJ Dan the other day and I didn't notice any breaks between tracks. Dude, I love mine... I feel naked without it.

zxc

Sep 3 2005, 00:50

Hi again

sorry for not replying earlier - I'm a little sick lately

Thank you for all the information but although they are very useful I feel more confused that I was

I summerize my problem:

I need to buy portable player that:

(Those features are a MUST)

* supports FLAC
* works as an external drive for PC
and
* has the best capacity/price ratio (at least 20GB)

I am also concerned about:

* gapless playback
* flawless rewinding
* abillity to charge it with wall charger
* reasonable warranty (longer than 90 days)
* good firmware support

All the aditional features (like radio, LCD etc.) are not that important.

and now I have those questions:

1. is it WISE (from the firmware point of view) to buy not manufactured any more Rio Karma and iRiver? could there be problems with warranty for them? or maybe in a year or two the player won't be able to support new version of FLAC or other formats?
2. is it WISE to consider to buy iPod and replace firmware with ipodlinux? would such a player meet my criteria?
3. what is the REAL deal with gapless in x5?

QUOTE(darin)

I was lestioning to a DJ Dan the other day and I didn't notice any breaks between tracks.

was it a DJ's MIX - no gaps between tracks? did you pay attencion to it or just "didn't notice" but actually there WAS a gap?

4. do rio karma and H1xxx only suport tag navigation? no folders browsing?
5. what would be RESONABLE price for H120, H140 and Rio Karma?

will you help me?

zxc

Cartoon

Sep 3 2005, 02:33

I can answer part of question 4... The Rio Karma ONLY support ID3-tag browsing -- no concept of folders/files.

In my book, that is a good thing as it fits perfectly in how I organize my music (by tags) and I couldn't care less about file/directory (or folders as you young'uns call them). Maybe part of the reason for that is how well the Rio Music Manager works...

I can see the reason behind directory based navigation, but I got too much music for that. YMMV

davidd

Sep 3 2005, 06:02

the H100's use filetree by default, but you can chose to use a database mode with both the official firmware and the rockbox firmware

for prices, the Karma goes for around $200 new, and as for the H100's, it depends on the condition of them, I have seen new H120's go for as much as $350 on ebay

as for warranties, iRiverAmerica is really good at supporting their products after you make contact with them, which could take awhile. they shouldn't honor the warranty if you flashed to unofficial firmware like rockbox... but I haven't heard of them doing that yet. not quite sure about with Rio as I havn't ever dealt with their customer service

Defsac

Sep 3 2005, 06:10

QUOTE(ChangFest @ Aug 30 2005, 10:27 AM)

Well foobar2000 is easy to find and free and an iRiver Hxxx is not. Shucks.

That's not really a fair comparison (unless you got your PC and Windows free with foobar2000). The hardware for both costs money (although PC hardware is obviously easier to find than an iRiver).

zxc

Sep 3 2005, 08:04

thank you very much guys

I hope others will answer to the rest of the problems

thx again

zxc

beto

Sep 3 2005, 08:32

if you don't mind me asking, why exactly FLAC support is a must for you? That kind of narrows your options big time at the moment...

unfortunateson

Sep 3 2005, 11:39

Using Iriver's H1x0 w/ Rockbox firmware: