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Klyith
Note: this is a continuation of the discussion from this thread. Thought it should get its own topic for better discussion.

At guruboolez's suggestion, I did some bitrate comparisons of the effects of the --athaa-sensitivity 1 switch. I felt that athaa-sensitivity (abbreviated A-S from now on) should remain as it was in the presets but be exposed as a valid option in betas and release versions. Guruboolez disagreed because of his experience with ABX tests on this issue. So I needed some hard data to know exactly how things change with the A-S command.

KBPS result for VBR Presets with and without --athaa-sensitivity 1
CODE
Antistar-30sec                Antistar-full
V      no     a1      diff
9*     32      32      0
8*     32      32      0
7*     32      32      0
6      39      40      1
5      63      83      20     99     113
4      141     150     9
3      165     168     3
2      176     177     1

Reservations-30sec            Reservations-full
V      no     a1      diff
9*     33      35      2
8*     57      62      5
7*     76      88      12
6      100     107     7
5      114     118     4      125     130
4      136     136     0
3      154     154     0
2      168     170     2

LvBQuart-30sec                LvBQuart-full
V      no      a1     diff
9*     30      32      2
8*     50      52      2
7*     62      66      4
6      78      85      7
5      99      122     23     115     135
4      157     164     7
3      176     179     3
2      188     188     0

DvorakNo9-30sec               DvorakNo9-full
V      no      a1     diff
9*     30      33      3
8*     50      52      2
7*     63      68      5
6      80      87      7
5      98      118     20     105     123
4      144     157     13
3      167     172     5
2      178     179     1

Reverie-30sec                 Reverie-full
V      no      a1     diff
9*     23      25      2
8*     38      38      0
7*     46      47      1
6      69      78      9
5      104     126     22     111     126
4      152     160     8
3      172     176     4
2      187     188     1
* marks the presets which automatically resample.
Antistar = Massive Attack - 100th Window - Antistar (low frequency tones)
Reservations = Wilco - Yankee Hotel Foxtrot - Reservations (piano with background clicks and hum)
LvBQuart = Beethoven - String Quartet in F major (op 135) - Movement 3 (strings)
DvorakNo9 = Dvorak - Symphony No 9 ("From the New World") - Movement 2 (strings and wind)
Reverie = Jacques Loussier Trio - Debussy - Rêverie (piano)
The 30 second samples taken from the most quiet sections of each track using Audacity. Other than that they were unmodified from the CD. Flac samples will be available tomorrow.

I also tested on a range of more "normal", ie louder, music. Bitrate changes were minimal across the board, never more than 5 kbps and averaging much less. Particularly reassuring was that songs with long silent or near-silent area, like for hidden track cds, had little change as well. In comparison, I think almost any classical music should be expected to gain 10 kbps or more at V5 with --athaa-sensitivity 1.

One of the things that leaps out is the more or less bell curved shape of the diff results. It is obvious that V 5 has the biggest problem. But is --athaa-sensitivity 1 the best solution? One thing I looked at was this old thread about how the A-S function is actually set in the presets. The change from being set to 32db on V0-4 to 16db at V5 shows the reason that most of the time V5 has the biggest change. (Though the expected result of --athaa-sensitivity 1 is to raise by 1db, it always moves from 32. So at V5 the effect is to raise by 17db.) But in that case, why does V4 also have a signifigant, though smaller, bitrate increase? The A-S alteration there is much smaller.

Based on these results, I have to change my opinion about athaa-sensitivity. However, I am not sure that the best solution is to set V5's A-S to 32. While the bitrate of the raised A-S in my results is more similar to "expected" V5 bitrates, looking at other bitrate results shows that these are not difficult samples. 32 may be a little too high. A possible compromise position would be to keep athaa-sensitivity as it is on V0-4, set it to 24 at V5, and remain at 16 at V6-9. This would improve V5 but avoid any "overshoot", and allow for more testing time. This small and safe change could even be done for the 3.97 final build, if the lame devs felt it was a good idea.
Gabriel
QUOTE
But in that case, why does V4 also have a signifigant, though smaller, bitrate increase? The A-S alteration there is much smaller.

In 3.97b, we have the following adjustments (base level is 32dB) for vbr:

CODE
V0 => 0
V1 => 0
V2 => 0
V3 => -4
V4 => -8
V5 => -16
V6 => -19
V7 => -22
V8 => -23
V9 => -25


But at the same time we also have the ATH base level that is changed between Vx presets.
robert
What I don't get, where did the value +1 for the --athaa-sensitivity 1 patch originate from? Have there been tests?
dev0
QUOTE (robert @ Sep 22 2005, 09:48 AM)
What I don't get, where did the value +1 for the --athaa-sensitivity 1 patch originate from? Have there been tests?
*

[proxima] came up with it as a fix for hi-freq ringing(?) problems during the 3.90.3 vs. 3.96 test.
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....27&#entry204827

More information should be available here:
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....59&#entry207659
[proxima]
robert, the "1" value comes from previous listening tests done with v3.96 and -V5. I initially proposed this value because it reduces certain problems with minimal bitrate increase. Greater values, with extreme samples, cause bitrate increase and not always better quality. The switch should not harm quality because it already proved great results in a past listening test.
Recently i didn't performed listening tests for the latest 3.97 alphas. Maybe further tests could be done to find the "sweet spot" but i think this value is quite correct.
Gabriel
People started to use tha value "1" to have a similar adjustment on V5 and V4 (when V4 was adjusting up to 32dB).
They used 1 because 0 doesn't work (due to the way I check if the value is default or user-changed).
Of course, the whole -1 to -16 range could hve been tested, but I do not think that had been the case.

However, the "1" value was originated with 3.96. Since 3.96, the ath adjust and ath base levels have been changed.
robert
Well, it seems people playing with that switch did not know that they should use negative values.
Gabriel
QUOTE
Well, it seems people playing with that switch did not know that they should use negative values.

That is why it is a test switch only...

More seriously, it helps to solve a problem in some cases, but I am not sure if this is the right fix.
As the problem is a kind of high freq ringing, it might be because of the ATH level (base or adjusted), but also because of the shape of the ath curve, or it could be something else.
guruboolez
QUOTE (Klyith @ Sep 22 2005, 04:20 AM)
In comparison, I think almost any classical music should be expected to gain 10 kbps or more at V5 with --athaa-sensitivity 1.
*

I compared the bitrate on 150 tracks, for -V5 & -V5 --athaa-sensitivity 1.

• 3.98 alpha 2 -V5 --vbr-new
• 3.98 alpha 2 -V5 --vbr-new --athaa-sensitivity 1



CODE

3.98a2 3.98a2 DIFFERENCE (kbps)
-V5 new -V5 new athaa1



129,49 136,22 6,7
140,53 142,62 2,1
157,50 159,92 2,4
148,26 149,38 1,1
108,58 114,54 6,0
78,26 81,69 3,4
127,07 135,54 8,5
133,21 145,23 12,0
111,07 119,74 8,7
123,65 128,72 5,1
127,75 139,25 11,5
107,15 121,36 14,2
127,57 132,72 5,1
123,89 133,12 9,2
113,27 120,36 7,1
144,62 151,89 7,3
108,17 114,82 6,6
125,00 133,05 8,1
128,33 136,42 8,1
124,86 127,62 2,8
140,13 144,57 4,4
137,64 144,41 6,8
113,41 121,72 8,3
102,34 109,67 7,3
91,53 105,34 13,8
112,65 125,37 12,7
142,00 151,59 9,6
115,14 126,60 11,5
109,25 121,02 11,8
141,13 145,53 4,4
120,66 129,54 8,9
115,92 129,68 13,8
130,82 136,69 5,9
112,27 118,91 6,6
140,27 151,48 11,2
139,77 140,21 0,4
139,34 143,12 3,8
127,74 129,03 1,3
119,06 124,42 5,4
133,97 137,83 3,9
144,07 145,12 1,1
118,84 126,09 7,2
123,08 134,90 11,8
117,77 131,14 13,4
111,42 117,57 6,1
137,23 141,62 4,4
126,44 132,19 5,8
136,03 141,91 5,9
111,38 133,42 22,0
144,96 145,71 0,7
129,29 138,42 9,1
136,15 142,84 6,7
137,04 142,70 5,7
131,40 133,99 2,6
153,47 154,46 1,0
142,06 147,07 5,0
145,78 146,92 1,1
141,08 144,38 3,3
139,31 142,12 2,8
139,01 142,20 3,2
136,37 140,07 3,7
137,03 141,94 4,9
149,99 152,60 2,6
144,92 145,86 0,9
145,81 147,75 1,9
95,19 104,51 9,3
110,23 119,55 9,3
114,98 126,62 11,6
122,82 129,59 6,8
127,98 138,54 10,6
103,55 112,79 9,2
139,80 142,48 2,7
121,72 130,90 9,2
116,74 131,46 14,7
116,31 120,47 4,2
128,79 132,99 4,2
131,32 132,83 1,5
134,75 135,80 1,1
142,22 143,24 1,0
142,12 148,10 6,0
127,81 131,24 3,4
140,00 143,88 3,9
118,79 129,74 10,9
115,16 123,88 8,7
138,72 142,88 4,2
119,64 134,55 14,9
131,98 138,15 6,2
126,08 134,07 8,0
105,17 106,16 1,0
115,98 131,00 15,0
91,51 95,03 3,5
91,44 94,49 3,1
100,18 103,07 2,9
103,38 113,76 10,4
78,90 84,14 5,2
78,90 84,14 5,2
108,13 113,08 4,9
111,99 123,93 11,9
138,13 139,21 1,1
139,75 140,69 0,9
121,87 124,95 3,1
121,78 126,83 5,1
136,67 141,00 4,3
106,46 119,27 12,8
145,70 152,97 7,3
125,19 135,42 10,2
111,94 124,99 13,0
125,80 135,31 9,5
122,34 127,12 4,8
93,01 98,61 5,6
107,00 121,82 14,8
111,20 122,80 11,6
121,70 127,29 5,6
111,18 120,28 9,1
139,98 142,08 2,1
134,54 139,73 5,2
136,60 141,22 4,6
86,37 90,26 3,9
73,92 79,32 5,4
93,87 96,32 2,5
137,39 143,79 6,4
135,82 141,62 5,8
70,31 75,71 5,4
142,42 144,21 1,8
131,97 140,39 8,4
153,03 156,13 3,1
137,10 144,66 7,6
100,99 111,23 10,2
128,74 133,26 4,5
137,33 141,04 3,7
115,04 122,72 7,7
134,11 140,32 6,2
139,28 141,23 1,9
139,01 142,30 3,3
129,63 132,01 2,4
120,59 129,22 8,6
109,32 122,60 13,3
137,34 144,80 7,5
125,25 141,25 16,0
132,59 140,88 8,3
125,18 126,36 1,2
123,44 130,02 6,6
118,85 126,89 8,0
136,32 137,45 1,1
133,70 145,37 11,7
113,17 123,54 10,4
134,45 138,78 4,3
112,90 123,39 10,5
142,54 145,81 3,3
128,72 136,39 7,7


Graphically, both curves looks like this:


(the purple curve corresponds to --athaa-sensitivity 1 encodings).

The "difference in bitrate curve" looks like this:


As you can see with this one, for 75% of the 150 files encoded with --athaa, the difference is inferior to 10 kbps. On average (mean & median)n the difference is ~6.5 kbps.
ToS_Maverick
where does 3.98 alpha 2 come from, and what's special about that version?
Klyith
QUOTE (Gabriel @ Sep 22 2005, 04:31 AM)
In 3.97b, we have the following adjustments (base level is 32dB) for vbr:
Ah, things make much more sense now. I thought it didn't look like only a two level transition!

QUOTE (Gabriel @ Sep 22 2005, 06:51 AM)
More seriously, it helps to solve a problem in some cases, but I am not sure if this is the right fix.
As the problem is a kind of high freq ringing, it might be because of the ATH level (base or adjusted), but also because of the shape of the ath curve, or it could be something else.
Does the overall ATH curve also vary between presets?

Another question would be, is the main problem about the lack of bits (and the hf ringing just a secondary effect), or can the artifact be solved by adjustments that don't require bitrate increase? The first seems more likely considering the very low bitrate of many samples... But it goes against the lame ethos to throw bits at problems that might have better solutions. Have you considered changing the A-S levels as a sort of temporary fix? It does seem like this is probably the #1 problem with lame for some people, as well as the most replicable one right now.
guruboolez
QUOTE (ToS_Maverick @ Sep 22 2005, 01:09 PM)
where does 3.98 alpha 2 come from, and what's special about that version?
*

1/ rarewares
2/ athaa-sensitivity command is enabled.
Klyith
QUOTE (guruboolez @ Sep 22 2005, 07:45 AM)
As you can see with this one, for 75% of the 150 files encoded with --athaa, the difference is inferior to 10 kbps. On average (mean & median)n the difference is ~6.5 kbps.
Hrm. I overestimate yet again. Well, one thing that's become clear to me is that if I want to do any serious testing, I'm going to need a bigger lossless archive. Sample sets in the 20-30 range just don't cut it, but when I have to rip almost everything from cd before I can even start it just takes too long.


----
FLAC files of my 30 second samples are HERE in case anyone cares to replicate my test or try some ABX testing.
Gabriel
QUOTE
Does the overall ATH curve also vary between presets?

Yes

QUOTE
Another question would be, is the main problem about the lack of bits (and the hf ringing just a secondary effect), or can the artifact be solved by adjustments that don't require bitrate increase?

Probably lack of bits, but the psymodel decided that those bits are not needed. Still, we must check if this is a lack of bits on the whole frequency range, or just in high freqs.

QUOTE
Have you considered changing the A-S levels as a sort of temporary fix?

This would mask the problem, and would hinder the hunt to find the real problem. Thus I do not want to just enable a quick workaround.

QUOTE
It does seem like this is probably the #1 problem with lame for some people, as well as the most replicable one right now.

This is effectively a problem, than can sometimes be annoying. We want to cure it, however I do not think that this is a kind of major new problem.
I think that overall, 3.97b is better than 3.96.1 with V5, and you have to remember that a few years ago the V5 setting was likely to produce worse results.
robert
QUOTE (Klyith @ Sep 22 2005, 02:17 PM)
Does the overall ATH curve also vary between presets?

yes

QUOTE
Another question would be, is the main problem about the lack of bits...

no, it's still vbr and could take more bits if needed. It's an ATH problem, overestimating masking capabilities.
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