I'm planning to get a new pair of high quality headphones. I've done a little research and right now it seems to be between Beyerdynamic and Sennheiser. I'm thinking either the HD 595 or 600 from sennheiser or the DT 880 or 990 from Beyerdynamic. Does anyone have any experince with one of these? Or another good headphone? Thanks.

Audio-Technica ATH-PRO700

or

Sony MDR-V900


Fantastic headphones..

I have the Beyerdynamic DT 880. I drive it from my soundcard with integrated amp.

Imo they are lacking bass and are somewhat bright. Now anyone at head-fi will tell you these are power hungry and need an amp orders of magnitude more expensive than the phones. I have my doubts, but never heard them with any other amp than the built in one. btw.: I don't think they sound any different with or without the soundcard's amp - just louder. I've never done any direct testing because I was too lazy to find comparable levels.

I listen to lots of electronica and without the bass they are disapointing. I'm not a bass fanatic, mind you. They are however most excellent for celtic or classic music. For that I love them. I've played with the EQ, raising the lows up to 6dB which made them sound decent to my ears, but somehow the result was very fatiguing. I had to turn it down again and then the weird feeling in my ears went away. Maybe this is a sign of underamping, I don't know.

I've also had an older version of the DT 990 for a few weeks. That one had plenty of bass allright, but the treble was tearing up my ears - there was just way too much of it. I found myself switching back to the 880s after a few minutes because I couldn't take that treble anymore. Maybe older people will profit from the added highs.

If I could turn back time I would not buy the 880s. They are not bad, but not the right thing for my listening habits and in that sense not worth the 220€ I paid. Maybe it's just my setup. The earpads are of course ultra cosy, however the headband only rests on a very small area on my head, so I have to move them from time to time.

Hope you find some nice cans you are happy with!

edit: Something I forgot to mention: Soundstage is excellent with these cans! It feels very natural to me.

See if you can find some response graphs and pick the flattest one.

Here is a response i gave to someone else asking about headphones, it should be mostly relevant Sorry about the length!!

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Quite simply you must hang out at www.headfi.org and find out more about headphones, possibly even get a good deal on a 2nd hand pair..

I'm a bit of a headphone nut so i'll list all mine that i currently own

Sennheiser HD600:
My original hifi headphone, and still in use 4 years later.. similar to the 580.. its
been superseeded by the 650 which i've not heard but a lot of people like.. the 650 is a lot more money though and the 580/600s are a bargain compared. Its a very very comfortable headphone, and sounds great with electronica. You really want to get it amped semi-decently to get a nice powerful bass.

Beyer Dynamic DT250 (80 ohm, or 250 ohm models)
These are quite simply the perfect headphone for use at work.. they're pro spec so can be rebuilt from available parts, but importantly are built to survive anything. They're isolating headphones, and are a bit dark sounding.. this is nice as you get an inky backdrop for your music to present to you.. consider the noise of your environment, isolating cans are a real bonus.. open cans do sound nice, but you will hear your computer fans over the top of the music all the time, it masks tiny details, or forces you to go louder - damaging your ears long term.

Etymotic ER-4P/S
In ear monitors from the states.. i dont use these much at the moment.. if you do any long haul flights these or similar models by shure etc would be a godsend. These are very very detailed and natural headphones.. they offer mid 20db isolation which means music again appears from silent depths.. Their soundstage is really in the head.. sometimes it works nice, sometimes not compared to the bigger soundstages of the others in this selection. Their bass is arkward to find, and though tuneful and correct it always seems to sound slight compared with what you're
used to. Electronica loves the bass, so its sometimes not the best can for the job.

Sony SA5000
These are indeed wonderful headphones.. very very detailed.. this can sometimes be a curse though.. they're bright.. a lot of energy in the higher frequencies.. they can sometimes set ceilings on your listening volumes in a lot of tracks cause its literally too painful to go any louder.. I loved them for a while, but have not listened to them a lot of late as i've brought newer models.. They certainly have an affinity with electronica with their details.. their bass whilst slightly slight relative to the bloomyness of some, is tuneful and right down to fairly low frequencies. Comfort is good, but still not as good as Sennheiser HD600s or similar.. also all their parts are non-replacable, compared to the Sennheisers allowing you to replace the leads etc when they get damaged (i've had to do this 2-3 times over 4 years, but they
have been my main phone that gets a lot of abuse with casual listening)

AKG K1000
These are the most unique kind of headphone you'll find.. they are actually ear speakers and they pivot away from the ear by amounts set by the listener.. with this you get binuaral feedback where your left ear hears the right channels signal and vice versa.. this leads them to have a great out of head soundstage that just blows your mind with electronica.. They require driving from speaker outputs of an amp, and they make you look a bit of a fool, but they are really special cans.. ones that i've neglected recently as i've had newer cans take up my time, but a recent relisten proves that they are one of the best headphones for electronica, and so will always stay in my collection. THe only real negative is from their unique design their bass
rolls off at about 35hz or so... i expected to hear bass-lightness when i first heard them, but nothing but.. they are a flat line can response in all the frequency range they provide, their bass is excellent.. better than the SA5000 for the frequencies they handle.. also being powered by muscular speaker amps you have a palpable feeling of the sound as the diaphragms really move air.

I've got some pictures of these headphones here

http://jimtreats.com/k1000/

Sennheiser HE60

These are known as the baby orpheus headphone and are Sennheisers top of the range electrostatic headphone next to their £10,000 signature Orpheus system they released. Now discontinued, so hard to find.. but they have a wonderful sound.. I've not been listening to them for the last week or so, but i should be getting an adapter to be able to listen again with my new amp any day now.. They are light as anything, electrostatic design helps on that.. no magnet.. Headband and comfort like a HD600 but their pads are much thicker so they rest off your ear more.. one of the most comfortable headphones you can wear.. their sound is superb.. electrostatics are just natural.. its a funny thing, but they are just so easily listened to.. really excellent details.. above SA5000 even, without being as shouty at the top end.. these kind of cans really drink in natural details and so its in voices, and live recorded instruments where you really start to hear these things like they are in the room with you.. violins and string instruments in particular (Max Richter for example) sound out of this world!!! Electrostatics bass isn't as forceful as dynamic cans, but the bass on the HE60s is really really good. perfectly tuneful and natural, and going deep... I'll be interested to compare them to my most recent can, as soon as the adapter arrives

Stax Omega II

These are the current top of the line Stax electrostatic headphone.. I had the
opportunity to get them at a good price saving over their normal £1700 price tag, and had to do it.. Stax have just gone to town with this can, and for one targetted bass response of electrostats.. the Omega IIs go down to 5hz and up to 40khz, in a near straight line fashion.. they are sometimes described as a bit dark, with a bias to the bass end.. but then again so are HD600s and its a sound that i love, and know works with electronica well.. I've not really discerned that as a problem, but as hoped they really are great cans (as they should be for their ridiculous price) .. they'll play with anything.. details above the HE60 perhaps (will get chance
to try and compare when i can drive them simultaneously off the same amp), great bass, amazing depth to soundstage.. tracks i'd listened to for ages with all these cans all of a sudden had a layering going away from the head like i'd never heard before.. at the same time, the soundstage isn't THAT big, it stays close to the head but in a really detailed way.. panning from left to right doesn't exhibit any of the left, centre, right blobs that headphone listening can sometimes do.. its a smooth path from side to side.. they're also really fast so glitch is just etched out with razor sharpness.. all in a package that has that effortless electrostatic listenability that
none of the other dynamic cans i've heard have when offering high amounts of detail across the frequency range.

Pics of these are available here, with their energiser to power them.

http://jimtreats.com/omegaII/new/

Beyer Dynamic DT770 (modded into Darth Beyers)

These are the most recent headphone i've brought that i've still not recieved.. yes i'm insane, and have too many of the damn things but after a few pairs it becomes quite addictive, and they don't take up too much room!! ANyways all the other cans mentioned apart from my work ones and those Etymotic ones are open.. background sounds are a real issue, such that i usually turn off all PCs and listen in silence.. these DT770s are closed like their DT250 brothers i describe above.. they are supposed to have the most bass of any headphone.. apart from perhaps the grado PS1s, limited edition £2000 from Germany only.. anyways i had to give them a go.. bass being such a driving force in some electronica, i'm hopeful that they'll be a great can for some situations.. one being able to listen over air conditioning in peace. I also watch dvds with headphones and again they'll be ideal for that with bass to be like a sub for explosions, and isolation remove the noise of fans etc.
I've gone and got myself a modded pair though whose cups have been rebuilt in wood.. at the same time a recabling is done to make them longer and different leads, which is supposed to balance them out a bit, and perhaps enhance bass that last step. These DT770's could be a possible solution for you.

Anyways enough.. i'd seriously recommend spending some money on a pair of headphones and enjoying the unique perspective they give you on music.. its something very rewarding for a lot of electronica, letting you really zoom in and move between the layers..

In your budget I'd suggest you consider

Sennheiser HD580 practically same sound as HD600, just a cheaper looks/feel
Sennheiser HD600
Beyer Dynamic DT250 (80ohm/250ohm, the former is easier to drive without a proper headphone amp
and is the model i went for to be driven by ipods and the like)
Sony SA5000 (or their cheaper siblings the SA1000, SA3000)
Beyer Dynamic DT770 80ohm

Grado's are options.. that's the last manufacturer i've got to look at.. the thing with grado's is that they dont really have a soundstage so to speak, they're rock phones designed to get you sat next to the singer at his mic, rather than cans with soundstage that portray it as if you are sitting in the audience however many rows back (depending on their style of soundstage) ... for electronica don't discount soundstage it plays a BIG role in what i enjoy about it.. in your budget the HD580/600 are probably the ones to go for.. after i've heard my new DT770s i may be
able to suggest them as well (they're supposed to have a good soundstage, making them excellent gaming headphones as well)

Good luck, do check out headfi its a great community and there is lots to learn.

Not neccessarily true, aside from perhaps resulting in a potentially boring listen, there is some wonderings as to due to the ear's hearing response (the thing that lossy codecs utilise to mask noise?) that cans with a non-flat response, somehow then end up more flat as heard by your ears resulting in a more pleasing listen.

If you could definitely try to listen to some cans first.. graphs aren't really THAT helpful, its sometimes quite difficult to even get accurate graphs in the first place, headphone seal can effect the sound greatly, especially the bass.

True, but casual tests have a nasty habit of being affected by placebo. I guess you're right though; go down to the store and try out a few.

Thanks for the responses all. I have another related question that I forgot to ask earlier. Headroom is selling these phones and "highly recommends" an (expensive) optional cable upgrade. I know the general consensus for speakers and amps is that expensive cables are a lot of dough for not much gain. Is this also the case with headphones?

Your refrigerator will run cooler with an expensive power cable, your toast will come out more golden with an expensive power cable, your electric blanket will keep your warmer with an expensive power cable, why wouldn't you headphones sound better with expensie leads? Those headphone manufacturers surely don't know what they are doing when they put the phones together.

Impossible question. There are no headphones as far as I know that sound good to everyone. What music do you like; what sort of sound do you want?

I believe people when they say they change the tone of the headphone. I have no reason to suspect this. Whether they are good for you depend on whether the tone of the headphone normally is good for you or whether you want to change it. But most of the time if you don't like the headphones' sound the solution is to get different headphones. Only if you really like them and want to change them a bit is changing cables a good idea I should think.
There exist partisans (ludicrously enough!) of particular headphones, especially sennheisers, who if you don't like the headphones always say it must be a problem with some other part of the system.

I suppose I should have mentioned what music i listen to in the first place Anyways, I listen to about 40% rock and 60% classical/vocal. As for what I like I value precision most. Brightness and bass are somewhat secondary.

don't bother with cable upgrades.. i draw the line there.. perhaps i should draw it a bit further up to cut off my silly headphone purchases.. blind testing of cables has never really been successfully done.. its not 100% certain that it doesn't have any effect (blind testing isn't the same kind of listening as relaxed soaking up tunes that you do for hours and really sink into the music) but its enough for me, and its a nice way of just freeing up money these people want you to spend money on.

Knowing what music you like, and what headphones do which music best is a good idea.. most can handle all types of music tho, some are perhaps more suited but without a pair to compare you'll never know what you're missing out on.

I've heard the HD600 and HD650 (and owned both) with several aftermarket cables. I defy anyone to sit with two models (one stock) and then switch the cables (so can't be the phones) and tell me the cables sound the same (do it blind if you want). Now you still might like the stock cables more, but adding a Zu Cable, Cardas, etc. will change the sound even straight out of a less then perfect source like the iPod (let alone something better). Only you can tell if it's worth the dough though (as they approach the cost of the phones themselves).

It's really important to test various phones if possible first. Several sellers have 30 day return policies. The signitures of various phones can vary wildly. I'm a big Sennheiser and Etymotic fan, but to each their own. Basically like codecs find the one that has the least problems that bother you most.

Although it gets a bad rap, you should probably glance over at Head-Fi if you're looking for opinions.

I agree Headfi is a great place to find out about headphone stuff.. its a bit of an opposite of this place as most of their discussions could be susceptible to placebo.. for me i find the contrast between the two philosophys refreshing.. but i always have to keep placebo in mind.

As to your challenge.. the HA equivelant challenge back at you is

"I defy anyone to sit with two models (one stock) and then blindly switch the cables (so can't be the phones) and tell me which one you are listening to, correctly to significant numbers to elimate guessing as likely."

To make it easier you could have two stock headphones and do blind test with them.. you'd expect to not be able to spot the difference between the two identical headphone.. if you were happy you couldn't blindly spot this then you could just do the test by changing headphones, with confidence that its only a cable difference.

No one has ever to my knowledge done this with any other equipment, or even headphones.. its crucial that blindness is preserved.. if you could verify this and perform this test and pass by blindly spotting the difference then that would be interesting.

Anyways its all a bit of a grey area.. i for one am happy to embrace placebo sometimes.. it makes patients better, it makes my music sound better sometimes.. I'm glad you enjoy your after market cables.. i never said it was 100% certain that it didn't make a difference.. in my mind its 99% certain, due to no reliable blindtesting ever succeeding to spot the difference.. but still there could be big differences in that 1%

Enjoy your music!!

i have been using my fathers HD600's for about the last month or so, as i not happy with my HD570's performance on the music i listen to (to give examples i mostly listen to electro, breakcore, idm stuff like that) and i felt they were rather poor in the bass department compared to my old grado sr60's.

now its been a long time since i used the grados as they broke so i dont like saying this but the 600's still dont match them for realistic bass but are probably better in other departments (certainly more comfortable), i am happy with the HD-600's sound so i think i might get myself some but i do keep meaning to go and try a pair of grado labs headphones that cost a similar price just to see what they are like but without the extended test i have been able to give the 600's it seems a waste of time.

Curious combination! For classical AKGs are excellent; I recommend the K501s if bass is not important for rock. You say bass is secondary, but many people (not including me) complain about the lack of bass of these phones, and I am not sure they would work with rock music, though I know hardly anything about that. The just-out K601s and K701s may be better bets. Don't know much about Beyerdynamic; it may well be a good choice. I would say definitely avoid Sennheisers for classical music.
(Price range taken from your initial suggestions.)

It's totally possible that aftermarket cables change the sound of headphones, and also to prove it via blind tests. But this will reflect clearly in measurements, and those measurements will show what those cables are doing is altering the audio signal in a way that the original cable doesn't do.

In other words, original cables are neutral, they don't change the sound. Aftermarket cables that sound clearly different are designed to change the sound. Possibly in a similar way to applying some eq or maybe inducing some distortion.

You mean relative to themselves?

I mean that they don't change in any audible way the sound that arrives to transducers. Same as interconnects, for example.

Well, I'll make an exception. It's possible, and I've read about, that some stock cables in low impedance headphones may cause some interchannel leakage, due to common grounds, that can be audible with some test signals. But with regular music its hardly an issue, since we are not very sensitive to thins kind of problems. Vinyl or speakers cause much greater interchannel leakage, for example.

I'm not sure which is more assuming - all cables sound alike until proven differently or assuming they sound different until proof is given (even with them made from different materials). That's probably not for this thread. I believe in a place like HA that takes placebo very seriously (and rarely posts on these related issues), I just know I also really didn't want to spend extra money on a cable. Four of us tested and it wasn't subtle. It's still though far from a bang for buck purchase.

My vote would be for the Sennheiser HD580 between the cans you have mentioned. I also own a pair of Ety ER-4s, Sony MDR-7506, and Grado SR-80. I really dig my Etys, but I can totally see why a lot of people wouldn't. The 580s are really great all around headphones with a very natural soundstage.

Is your line of reasoning that if manufacturers want to add capacitance or resistance or whatever else that changes the sound they won't want to do this in the cables?

I have Beyerdynamic DT880 and Talisman T-3H. I tested this headphone without an amplifier before. It sounded like a cheap headphone you can get from anywhere. There's really huge different in terms of audio quality between with and without an amplifier. The impedance value of DT880 is 250 ohms, which is difficult to drive without an amplifier (FYI, earphones for portable players are in range of 16-64 ohms. If more than this, you'll either need to increase the volume beyond normal to gain the same volume level, and that will use up a lot of battery power. That's another reason for having an amplifier, either for stationary or portability.).

As someone says before, DT880 isn't for everyone. This headphone gives you unbiased sound. Therefore, it lacks of bass boost, which you probably can find other headphones better. However, this isn't a weak point of this headphone. If you love pure and untouched music, then this is for you, especially when you like to listen to instrumental music, e.g. piano or violin.

After my ears have gotten used to this headphone, I can't really listen to any music that is boosted by any kind of software Ah...yes, I tried to listen to it before, but my ears couldn't take it, and I had to turn it off after an hour of listening. If music isn't boosted, then I can listen as long as I like.

Note that your ears aren't my ears. We're different. Even though I say all good stuff about this headphone, you better go try yourself. Also, you'd consider comfortability into account. The structure of our heads are different. Some headphones aren't made for big or small heads. Some of them gives better sound quality than DT880, but can't be worn for too long. For me? I can wear DT880 for 3 hours straight without getting tired or feel heavy though sometimes I feel warm at my ears.

Well, both electric theory and actual measurements show that any properly built headphone cable (any standard regular cable of a good headphone) doesn't change the sound in a way that is likely to be audible, by far.

(The only exception to could be the one I mentioned in my previous post, or maybe some noise pickup in some low impedance headphones. But those can't be related to a great change in the type of sound, and actually do not happen in high impedance headphones such as HD580 or HD600.)

Elaborating a little bit more: given the actual impedances of headphones and the lengths of the cables used, the frequency response changes caused by a regular cable are non-existant at audio frequencies (below 0.1 dB). And we already know that cables cause no nonlinear distortion. Both theory and measurements show this. That's why one can say that all regular cables sound the same. Because they don't have a sound of their own, they are totally "transparent", using a codec terminology.

You find a cable that actually sounds different? Then measure the actual change caused by this cable to the sound that arrives to the transducer, and you'll find why. I hope you don't want to object current scientific knowledge over electrics, measurements or limits of human hearing, before having a single proof to support it, proof consisting of a simple measurement of the changes this special cable actually produces.

My setup is going to be computer>external amp>headphones, so i think I should be okay. At the moment my amp is not a dedicated headphone amp (unfortunately), its a normal surround receiver+amp so it may not sound as good as with real amp+pre-amp. However, I'm currently in the process of upgrading my audio piecemeal (which is why I'm getting these phones) and the amp is the next on the list so it should only be a problem for another couple months or so.

Could you please elaborate a little more on the sound with and without amp? Especially in the bass range.

I just ran a little informal test with foobar's tone generator. Compared to a 1000Hz tone, 50Hz just sound wimpy. I plugged in my PX 100 (which I admit are "dark" sounding phones) and the output at 50Hz was quite powerful.

Listening to trance or rock, I hear the "thud" of the bass drum, but nearly nothing of the "oomph". I can't imagine that is the way it should be. Unfortunately I am unable and unwilling to spend 200€ or even 1000€ on a dedicated amp. Overall volume is no problem, just the bass range.

I can't comment on the DT880, but I have a Sennheiser HD 600 (300 Ohm), and I kept thinking that using a dedicated headphone amp would be an unnecessary luxury and aimed at placebo-loving "audiophiles". Boy, was I wrong. If you have high impedance headphones, do yourself a favour and listen through them with a headphone amp (I have an "Rega Ear" that cost 220 Euro). The difference is really striking. The sound is much fuller in the bass range, really a difference between night and day. It indeed gives the music that "oomph" you are missing - just try it e.g. with some Massive Attack tracks, you will be literally blown away

i've got beyer DT 531s and can only recommend them. they are not the best headphones, but they just sound good on everything. you'll really have fun with these.

guruboolez also uses them, so they must be good

on high impendance headphones i would strongly recommend you a headphone-amp. it's really worth it and you'll get a DIY amp built for 60-100 $.

Another interesting question would be to tell what 'realistic' bass means to you when the 'bass' is actually synthesized in the music that you prefer to listen to.

In my opinion, a 'realistic' bass sound emerges from string instruments (like double or e-bass) or natural drums, not from a synthesizer ...

Koss KSC75: very good sounding and comfortable headphones that are so cheap that you can't go wrong buying a pair. They compare quite favorably to my HD-600s and cost roughly 20 times less.

I can confirm.

I own Sennheiser HD 580, which use the same drivers as HD 600. I can't comment on BD DT880, too, but with Sennheisers - the difference is stunning. It's not only the increased volume. The sound changes and gets fuller - it doesn't come from a cardboard box anymore. The bass has much more power, the whole sound is different and there are sounds which were inaudible when the headphones were plugged directly into my soundcard.

I own a really powerful (literally) headphone amp, so all my comments are valid in regard to this particular situation. I don't know whether a portable headphone amp would improve things as much or not. And I don't know for sure what the situation would look like in case of Beyers. Also, I can't comment on soundcards with dedicated headphone outputs or headphone amps.

Gecko, you will have to try and see for yourself, I'm afraid. But the general consensus is: high impedance headphones need a headphone amp. And some of them - like my HD 580 - need it desperately.

If I'm not mistaken, those phones were designed to be amped.

They were designed to be driven from a low impedance source. That's really what you need to drive them properly. That, and high enough output level, because they require more voltage than other headphones to sound at same level, but not much more.

True. Any opamp-based headphone amplifier should have very low impedance at the jack. A soundcard line out may not... I don't know how these are typically designed, except they aren't designed to drive headphones.

P.S for casual listening, I like my Koss Portapro2 (same drivers as Portapro). A bit too much bass, but sounds good especially with thinly-recorded music. They aren't available anymore, but the Portapro is. Look for sales, they're a little pricey at the retail ~$45.

P.S.2 my first post here in what... 2 years?

Thanks for the replies and sorry for hijacking this thread, but I guess this is also useful information for the original poster.

The thing is, I don't notice any difference in sound between switching the soundcard's amp on/off. I would expect it to at least get noticably better, which has made me skeptical about amping in the first place. People over at head-fi claim that amping is an absolute neccessity (except for portable phones), but they also say that about cable mods.

Guess I have to find myself a hifi dealer and listen for myself. Sadly all in town have closed years ago.

Maybe I'll be better cheaper off selling my old ones and getting a custom version from the "Beyerdynamic Manufaktur" with 32 Ohm Impedance.

Why the high impedance anyway? Less radio interference?

I suspect that the amp in the sound card is going to be some 50-100mW into 32 Ohms jobbie which makes little or no difference when presented with a 600 Ohm load.

Most stanadlone headphone amps put something around 1 W into 300Ohms. Esoteric headphone amps are usually a waste of money. You've got a couple of options

1) Buy a soundcard with a decent headphone amp built in. I've got a Terratec DMX6Fire which copes fine with my Sennheiser HD650s. Most of the semi-professional firewire interfaces available have decent headphone amps built in as well.

2) Buy a standalone headphone amp. This is one area where professional kit can actually cost less than "Hifi" kit.

I have the Terratec Aureon Sky.

Any recommendations for an amp? What do you consider professional equipment?

Have I misunderstood something here? You say that the driver should have low impedance. I guess that means low when comparing it to the load...? Then, wouldn't a high impedance load be easier to drive then as you can have a relatively higher impedance on the driver and still be ok?

Yes.


Yes, you're right. However, these headphones (HD580, HD600) work better with low impedance sources not because of their high impedance, but because their impedance varies a lot with frequency. Min. impedance is 300 Ohm, max impedance is 600 Ohm. (It's also possible that because of such reactive load, it requires a better amp to be driven properly without distortion, but here I'm just guessing. Anyone?)

Here you can download an Excel spreadsheet that calculates the attenuation caused by this source impedance variation.

And here you can find measurements of the performance of my M-Audio Revolution (headphone output) driving my HD580.

This sound card has not too low output impedance, but not high either, and not too high current capability (a couple of 5532 opamps in parallel).

Some freq. response variation due to the impedance variations are visible. And some low freq. distortion is visible too. Edit: both them are not very high, I think they would cause little or no audible degradation.

The proporition ratio of source impedance vs. load impedance ratios is a primary consideration to determine the relevance of this parameter[source impedance] upon frequency response. For even a 100 ohm source impedance vs. a 0 ohm source impedance, the frequency response of the HD580/HD600 would not be readily changed within easily audible thresholds. So far as considering that the load is a reactive one, this is really a consideration of power factor[relative phase of voltage vs. current into the reactive load and the actual power developed by the amp to deliver a specific target power to the load] and basicly lets you calculate the actual power required by the source vs. what might be erroneously concluded by calculating the power requirment based on a resistive terminated load of a given resistance. But the majority of headphones just don't require much 'power' relative to what just about any headphone amplifier can produce. However, a very few do require considerable voltage levels [though this is most probable to occur on very dynamic material or in situations of a very low power output amp such as a portable DAP built in amp for example] that might not be delivered by a standard headphone amp. However, the result would be simple insufficient volume level or compression/clipping distortion[depending on the specific situation] on such transiet peaks[assuming the peaks are of long enough duration to make such distortion(s) audible].

-Chris

A quick word about the phones; I have a set of Sennheiser 580's and I too am quite happy with them. Considering the price drops since I bought my pair years ago, I would make the same choice in a heartbeat at todays prices.

In case of HD580/HD600, a 100 ohm source impedance would cause a 1.16 dB rise at 100 Hz (see excel spreadsheet and measurements I linked at my prev. posts).

I have just ABXed that (8/8, p<0.4%). I provide the test sample & impulse response of the filter at http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....topic=38045&hl=

My statement: "For even a 100 ohm source impedance vs. a 0 ohm source impedance, the frequency response of the HD580/HD600 would not be readily changed within easily audible thresholds.".

It can not be considered that 1.16db rise at 100hz is within a realm of easily audible, by easily, I mean an obvious difference that does not require careful instant comparison to ensure the difference is noticeable. This is a very slight difference[and localized to the specific bandwidth of the impedance peak and it's peak value only occuring at the impedance peak value center frequency] by any account and I gave the example of a very high output impedance[most headpone jacks are well under 10 ohms Z] to illustrate the trivial effect on the specific headphone. Here is a simulated response graph, using actual measured impedance of a HD580. Here are examples of HD580 acoustic response as would be seen on a dummy head at output Z 1 ohm, 60 ohm and 120 ohm.



-Chris

DT880 doesn't boost bass at all, as I told you before. It's unbiased headphone. If you're looking for a pair that generates a lot of bass, then DT880 isn't for you, or at least that's what I think.

After connecting DT880 with T-3H, I found that the clarity of sound, dynamic level, and sound stage are improved.

The discussion about cables is quite subjective. Before getting DT880, I was searching for this kind of discussion before in the Head-Fi forum. However, objective reviews were almost non-existent. Also, there's no such a solid sound test done by several people with the same cable. There's only a few people there admit the change (a bit) in sound quality. Moreover, these people had hi-fi audio systems, which were quite expensive. I guess these people had golden ears (or at least their expensive audio systems allowed them to hear the difference). I don't think there're many people having that level of audio perception. So, whoever planning to upgrade a pair of cables, better think twice or more before buying them.

Hi guys. What should I get, if what I want basically is a pair of ER-4Ps without any cordnoise, that I can sleep while wearing (I want in-ear plugs but they shouldn't protrude so much) and with really impressive bass?

I'm willing to pay about as much as I gave for the ER-4Ps originally; around $250.

I've been using HD580's for a couple of years, bought to replace a set of 480's used for more than 10 years which proved to be quite amazingly tough. The ear-pads and cable both wore out and were replaced at differnent points, the paint was wearing off them, but the drivers could still do huge volume levels with no buzzing or distortion..

I have to say that I still actually prefer the sound of the 480's in some ways (which were given to a freind in need a while back and still going strong).

I realized after a while that the reason I preferred them is that they use the flat pad-on-ear "clam-shell" design Senn. used for a long time, the 580's use a 'circum-aural' arrangement that suspends the drivers away from your ears.

The effect with the 480's is that bass, kick-drums and percussion generally is actually felt against the ear, and for me this adds to the the enjoyment of some music - it seems to make it more exciting.

The trade-off is less of a sense of space or ambience.

I'd listen to few sets which use these two layouts (Senn/Beyer vs. Grado for eg.) and see which you pefer.

R.

I've owned the HD580 for over two years, and up until a month ago would have recommended them to anyone looking for a (relatively) neutral headphone.

Since purchasing the Beyerdynamic DT880, this is the only headphone I would recommend -- IMO it's well worth the $75 premium over the HD580. Much better bass extension, much more detailed, much better "head-stage" (subjective impression of soundstage with headphones on), overall flatter response. In my opinion, it sounds like it could be worth $450-$600... I'm not kidding about that. IMO it does need an amp for good dynamics, even more than the high end Senns.