Hi all. I am looking for a drive to perform fast secure DAE to archive my collection of 1000 CDs.
Some test rips with EAC and my Plextor 716A on a sample of my collection (much of which is fairly old with minor scratching) have been completing in around 1.0x.

I would like to speed this up without sacrificing quality.
It appears that a non-audio-caching drive would give me an immediate speed boost by eliminating the need for EAC to flush the cache.

I have cross checked the various lists of DAE drive features with the current product lines of the two brands I see most recommended here, Lite-On and Plextor without success.
So the question is, does anyone know of a decent quality, non-caching drive that is currently available.

Cheers

If you use Plextor drives, you can also use Plextools Pro, which is as secure as EAC but rips at the drive's maximum speed (up to 52x depending on drive). Drawback: not as many options as EAC, but just for ripping CDs to .wav files it is just as good as EAC.
For EAC, there is now a new experimental, super-secret-not-recommended-even-by-the-developer switch that disables the cache on a permanent basis. If you start EAC with the commandline option -usefua your drive will be recognized as not caching in EAC's autodetection and you can rip at blazing speeds. However, it is said to be working only with Plextor drives at the moment.
Andre Wiethoff, the EAC developer, has asked for feedback on this switch, but said that it will probably work OK for Plextor drives.

I don't understand the effect of this switch. Does it use a different method to avoid reading from the cache than the one used by checking "Drive caches audio data"? Or does it use the same basic method, but in a way that works faster with certain hardware?

> your drive will be recognized as not caching in EAC's autodetection and you can rip at blazing speeds

That part sounds as if it might only be fooling autodetection, and that the ripping process will still in fact be reading from the cache ... essentialy the same as unchecking "Drive caches audio data".

All the current NEC DVD writers I've tried don't cache.

Teac CD-540E

http://froogle.google.com/froogle?btnG=Sea...-540e&scoring=p

WOW! It works with my PX-712A! But extraction speed went down from 7.8x to 6.5x with the CD I tested...

Sergio

AFAIK it makes the same thing as Plextools do - it sends a command to the drive which enables a mode in which the drive doesn't use cache for extraction. I think only Plextor drives support that mode. There were some more detailed posts about it, made by spath IIRC.

Ahh ok, I wasn't really comprehending that it was an ability of the drive itself to become a truly non-caching drive. Thank you!

My CD-W540E (CD burner) DOES CACHE audio. So it is quite strange that CD-DRIVE (not burner) doesn't cache.

Same here

Did you check "use C2 information"? This should be safe for Plextor drives (after all, also Plextools Pro relies on C2 info and is considered safe). This should speed up the extraction considerably.

Does seem odd, but in a couple different drive features databases I've seen just that - the CD-RW caches, the CD-ROM doesn't.

So -usefua switch with 'Drive caches audio data' unchecked and 'Drive is capable of retrieving C2 error information' checked should make EAC use the same DAE technique as PlexTools?

EDIT: Only other information I found about this switch was here
http://www.digital-inn.de/showpost.php?p=83902&postcount=34
I can't belive this has been known since March 2004 but not mentioned anywhere else. Maby it has bugs or issues?

I don't know enough about the inner workings of either EAC or Plextools to answer this, but in theory it should give the same result. After all, Plextools also permanently disables the cache and relies on the drive's C2 error pointer to see if it has to re-read sectors. However, what you don't get in EAC is the advanced DAE error recovery functions that Plextools offers. AFAIK, all EAC can do is try to re-read the sectors and hope to get matching results.

By the way, how I can be 100% be sure my drive DOES NOT cache audio? It's known that EAC test utility is not precious.

Feurio can perform extensive testing on drives to find out if they cache or not.

i tried the switch with my non plextor, lite-on drive and it seemed to rip differently, though how i am not sure, it was faster, still did C2 error correction

The only way of finding out is testing with your drive: Use some damaged, but still readable CDs (i.e. ones that frequently trigger the C2 error pointer and make EAC re-read sectors). Then extract it 1) with -usefua, C2 enabled and 2) without -usefua, but with "drive caches audio" checked and "use C2 info" NOT checked. If the resulting files are bit-identical, I'd consider -usefua and C2 safe for the drive in question.

Not that much, IMO. They didn't appear on the merket in the same time period...quite the opposite actually.

So after having denied for months that Plextools was using the FUA bit Andre
adds it to his own tool... this guy will never cease to amaze me

You seems to be really right, sTisTi. I made some more tests and here are the extraction speed results with different switches activated:



All the tests were done ripping Joini Mitchel's "Chalk Mark in a Rain Storm", Geffen 924 172-2, witch lasts for 46' 24''. The CD is in fair conditions with a total of about 32000 C1 and a burst of about 1500 C2 errors.

It seems that using Plextor's C2 error information gives a HUGE advantage in terms of speed, particullary when used toghether with the -usefua command line options, that on the other hand makes extraction slower when no C2 information is used.

I'm not competent enough on the internals of the Plextor drives/firmware and EAC to comment my own results. Any comment from a knowledageble person (Pio2001, are you listening?? ) will be really apreciated.

I must add that I'm not yet totally convinced, in terms of "ripping security" about using the "Drive is capable of retrieving C2 error information" EAC option, even with my Plextors, but I may be badly wrong and at this point I will be really happy to be proved such.

Sergio


Edit: Spelling
P.S.: "No Drive Caches, FUA, C2" is on a par with burst mode, for speed.

Wrong post, sorry. Deleted.

1) So, is using the -usefua switch the same thing as NOT checking the "Drive caches audio option"?

2) I tried the -usefua switch, then had EAC detect my drive settings and it still said that the drive cached audio. This is a Plextor Premium.

3) If I do use the -usefua switch and still check the option that the drive caches audio, which will EAC do? Will it re-read from the CD because I have told it that the drive caches audio, or will it ignore that setting because I have used the -usefua switch?

1) No. Just unchecking it would make ripping insecure. Usefua is meant to force the drive to access the disc without using the cache. Thus...
2)... EAC should detect it as non-caching. But EAC is unreliable in detecting cache, so who knows?? The only sure way of knowing is to test ripping with a slightly damaged CD and compare the results with/without cache checked.
3) AFAIK, usefua doesn't change the basic behaviour of EAC, so checking cache would make EAC behave just as usual, i.e. not ignore the setting.

So, just so I'm sure as to the settings I should I use, I need:

1) use the -usefua switch
2) DO NOT check drive caches audio

Is that correct?

Yes. However, the reports I've read indicated that EAC detects the drive as non-caching with the -usefua switch, so maybe you should investigate if it really works as it should with the Premium if EAC keeps telling you the drive DOES cache audio.

Yes, and I'd also check the "Drive is capable of retrieving C2 error information" option.

BTW: when using the -usefua option EAC detected both my PX-712A and PX-W2410A as non caching drives. I just bought a Premium but have not yet installed it. I'll let u know what it will say about it ASAP...

Sergio

Thanks Sergio, I'd appreciate that.

@ponchorage:

My Plextor Premium (TLA# 0005 with firmware 1.06) is recognized as a *NON* caching drive by EAC 0.95b3 invoked with the -usefua option

Bear in mind that to make a quick test I connected it to my system through an USB-IDE adapter. Anyway I don't think that can make a difference.

Cheers!

Sergio

P.S.: EAC was using native Win32 interface

Edit: corrected firmware version from 1.14 to 1.06 (see below...)

The latest firmware I could find on the Plextor site is 1.06! I wonder why your's has 1.14. How do you find the TLA of the drive?

OOOOOOOOOOOPS! You're right I made a mistake and in PlexTools I've read the firmware version for my old PX-40TS. Give me few minutes and I'll tell you the correct version. Sorry!

TLA# is stamped on a label on the top of the drive. Easy to read for me as I've not yet mounted it inside my PC!

Sergio

Again sorry about my mistake. Yes, it is 1.06, the latest available.

Sergio

Well, I just upgraded to the latest firmware and EAC is still telling me that the drive caches audio when I use the FUA command and tell EAC to test the drive's features.

Let me make sure I'm doing this correctly:

I start eac from the command line with the following command:

eac.exe -usefua

Is that right? Then I just test the drive's features.

Acutally I created a modified shortcut with the following in it:

"C:\Program Files\Exact Audio Copy 095b3\EAC.exe" -usefua

but I don't see why it shoudn't work from the command line.

Is your EAC 0.95b3?

Edit: and are you using native Win32 or an ASPI driver?

I'm using EAC 0.95b3 with an external ASPI interface: the Nero dll is in the EAC folder. I'll try the win32 driver.

I think this can make the difference...

no difference, still says Caching: Yes

argggghhhh!

edit: wait! I need to restart EAC for changes to make effect

... sending you a PM

Edit: Yes, you have to restart it! Time to sleep... I hope everything will be ok, now... See you tomorrow, bye!

Restarted EAC and it still says Caching: Yes.

I'm going to try reinstalling EAC and removing the registry keys, too.

Anybody else have a Plextor Premium they can try this on?

Yes, I behaves the same here. Latest firmware.

Behaves the same as ...?

'Detect read features' says my Plextor Premium caches with the -usefua switch. But regardless it does seme to work in some way atleast. With C2 unchecked it ripped a bit slower than without usefua, with C2 checked it ripped wuite faster. 'Drive caches...' box was unchecked, of course.

It seems that the different results we got depends on the CD we used to perform the test.

I made my initial tests using the EAC "Offset Test CD", the one you can create from the "Writer" submenu of EAC Drive configuration. With that CD I can confirm that I get a "Caching: No" result if I start EAC with the -usefua option and a "Caching: Yes" if I start it without -usefua.

But then I tried with a different CD (a normal pressed Audio-CD) and I got "Caching: Yes" as you guys get even with the -usefua option turned on.

I don't know what to say...

Sergio

EACs cache detecting is known not to be very accurate.

FUA is a command that stands for 'Force Unit Access' and is Part of the MMC commandset. Basically, FUA will make the drive read data from the disc instead of reading data from the drive's physical buffer memory.

If FUA is part of the MMC command set is it possible that ponchorage is having problems because he is not using an MMC read command?

Possible I'm putting two and two together and getting twenty two.

EAC 0.95b2
Plextor Premium (1.06)
Installed ASPI interface (Nero)

Command line: C:\Program Files\EAC\EAC.exe -usefua

Detect Read Features...
Caching: No
Accurate Stream: Yes
C2 Error Info: Yes


:edit: Also tested "-usefua" command line with EAC 0.95b3; same results.

I have no idea about this stuff so don't laugh.
Doesn't EAC have to be set to use D8 with Plextor drives? I take that's something else than MMC.

I have one of these laying around, perfect condition if someone wants to purchase it. I don't know what an appropriate price would be but if you want it, pmsg me and we'll work something out.

This is the exact setup I have (besides the location of EAC) and I get the opposite results, no matter what CD I have in the drive when testing the drives read features. I wonder what could be causing this.