I recently bought Terratec's Aureon 7.1 Space soundcard. Everything is working fine save for sampling issues. I can't seem to get a 192kHz sampling rate.
I have XP service pack 2. I installed the latest driver. I set the sampling rate to 192kHz in the ControlPanel, but it always flips back to 44kHz everytime I run either WinAmp, or Media Player, or any other playback software with MP3s. I've managed to get 192kHz with Winamp when I used a user-created Resampling Tweak tool; but really, I shouldn't have to rely on this kind of tool to get a decent sampling rate out of my card.
Furthermore, when I switch to Sensura Mode to enable 7.1 (i have a 7.1 system) the sampling rate 'pull-down bar' is darkened and locked at 44kHz.
In XPs Hardware Manager in the audio section, there are 'Audio Codecs' and 'Legacy Audio Drivers' that are installed by default with XP. Perhaps I need to disable these? Could this be the problem? I've already disabled Intels on-board(mobo) proprietary audio device by the way.
I seem really to be the only one with this specific problem. Please Help.
Full Version: Terratec Sampling Rate Problem
Maybe it seems too obvious for you to bother being explicit but are you having trouble with
recording?
playback?
both?
You post seems to read as though you are trying to play back 44.1kHz files at a higher sampling rate and don't seem to realize that they are supposed to play exactly at, and only at, what they are. Resampling to a higher sample rate (although pointless for playback) could be done before playback, or even in real time, but the soundcard should never do this on its own.
It depends on computer power and the ratio between input and target rates, but good quality resampling can take longer than real time, so doing it, either up or down, as you play, could reduce quality. Since 44.1 kHz is not a factor of 192, resampling between them takes much longer than resampling 44.1 to 88.2 or 176.4kHz.
If you are attempting to record at 192kHz and can't it is a totally different problem. I would first try with a real audio recording program that gives you direct access to the cards facilities instead of some MS BS or some application that is really meant to be a player. Try downloading Audacity (freeware) or the trial version of Audition and see what happens.
recording?
playback?
both?
You post seems to read as though you are trying to play back 44.1kHz files at a higher sampling rate and don't seem to realize that they are supposed to play exactly at, and only at, what they are. Resampling to a higher sample rate (although pointless for playback) could be done before playback, or even in real time, but the soundcard should never do this on its own.
It depends on computer power and the ratio between input and target rates, but good quality resampling can take longer than real time, so doing it, either up or down, as you play, could reduce quality. Since 44.1 kHz is not a factor of 192, resampling between them takes much longer than resampling 44.1 to 88.2 or 176.4kHz.
If you are attempting to record at 192kHz and can't it is a totally different problem. I would first try with a real audio recording program that gives you direct access to the cards facilities instead of some MS BS or some application that is really meant to be a player. Try downloading Audacity (freeware) or the trial version of Audition and see what happens.
QUOTE(Axl Rose @ Nov 19 2005, 01:24 PM)
I recently bought Terratec's Aureon 7.1 Space soundcard. Everything is working fine save for sampling issues. I can't seem to get a 192kHz sampling rate.
I have XP service pack 2. I installed the latest driver. I set the sampling rate to 192kHz in the ControlPanel, but it always flips back to 44kHz everytime I run either WinAmp, or Media Player, or any other playback software with MP3s. I've managed to get 192kHz with Winamp when I used a user-created Resampling Tweak tool; but really, I shouldn't have to rely on this kind of tool to get a decent sampling rate out of my card.
I have XP service pack 2. I installed the latest driver. I set the sampling rate to 192kHz in the ControlPanel, but it always flips back to 44kHz everytime I run either WinAmp, or Media Player, or any other playback software with MP3s. I've managed to get 192kHz with Winamp when I used a user-created Resampling Tweak tool; but really, I shouldn't have to rely on this kind of tool to get a decent sampling rate out of my card.
Errm, you don't want to playback your MP3s or other ripped CDs at 192 kHz sampling rate - it is utterly pointless since the source material is 44.1 kHz, so it also should be played back at 44.1 kHz. You only need higher sampling rates for recording or playing back high-definition formats like DVD-A.
As the others have already stated, the card sets the master clock based on the input material. However, you can override that. In the "Settings" section, in the "Master Clock" box, set the internal clock to whatever sampling rate you want, then push the "Samplerate locked" button.
WHY you would want to do this is a different question alltogether.
PS: I've the DMX 6Fire 2496, so the layout of the control panel may be a bit different, but there should be a similar option.
WHY you would want to do this is a different question alltogether.
PS: I've the DMX 6Fire 2496, so the layout of the control panel may be a bit different, but there should be a similar option.
The Terratec driver changes the sample rate automatically according to the source sample rate. It doesn't resample. That is considered to be a good thing.
Resampling a lower sample rate to a higher one does not improve quality. It is the other way round. If a resampler is good the negative effect can be minimal.
You can make the 192 kHz sample rate stick on playback only with 192 kHz source material.
You can try high quality SW resampling for example with the foobar2000's SSRC resampler.
From the foobar2000 FAQ:
Resampling a lower sample rate to a higher one does not improve quality. It is the other way round. If a resampler is good the negative effect can be minimal.
You can make the 192 kHz sample rate stick on playback only with 192 kHz source material.
You can try high quality SW resampling for example with the foobar2000's SSRC resampler.
From the foobar2000 FAQ:
QUOTE
Q: What resampler settings should I use?
A: First, you shouldn't use resampler at all, unless you can tell the difference between resampling being enabled and disabled; resampler is a resource hog and the differences on normal music are very small and virtually impossible to notice (only certain "test signals" such as udial.wav may sound obviously different, but nothing like that occurs in real music). If you really have to use resampler, resample to 48000Hz (*) and use fastest settings (only resampling from very low samplerates like 8000Hz has been reported to sound noticeably worse with resampler in fast mode).
You don't "gain quality" by resampling to higher samplerate, it's just like stretching a picture to display it on a higher-resolution screen. You will be most likely able to "play" 96000Hz samplerates on whatever card you have, but samplerates unsupported by hardware will be downsampled by windows kernel mixer.
(*) most of currently manufactured consumer soundcards resample internally to 48000Hz (which is absolutely needed for mixing multiple streams), some of them (eg. all SoundBlaster Live! and Audigy series) have issues with resampling (again, mostly noticeable on test signals such as udial.wav, you are very unlikely to be able to tell the difference on real music); those cards are the main reason why resampler DSP became available.
A: First, you shouldn't use resampler at all, unless you can tell the difference between resampling being enabled and disabled; resampler is a resource hog and the differences on normal music are very small and virtually impossible to notice (only certain "test signals" such as udial.wav may sound obviously different, but nothing like that occurs in real music). If you really have to use resampler, resample to 48000Hz (*) and use fastest settings (only resampling from very low samplerates like 8000Hz has been reported to sound noticeably worse with resampler in fast mode).
You don't "gain quality" by resampling to higher samplerate, it's just like stretching a picture to display it on a higher-resolution screen. You will be most likely able to "play" 96000Hz samplerates on whatever card you have, but samplerates unsupported by hardware will be downsampled by windows kernel mixer.
(*) most of currently manufactured consumer soundcards resample internally to 48000Hz (which is absolutely needed for mixing multiple streams), some of them (eg. all SoundBlaster Live! and Audigy series) have issues with resampling (again, mostly noticeable on test signals such as udial.wav, you are very unlikely to be able to tell the difference on real music); those cards are the main reason why resampler DSP became available.
QUOTE(2thumbs @ Nov 19 2005, 07:13 PM)
As the others have already stated, the card sets the master clock based on the input material. However, you can override that. In the "Settings" section, in the "Master Clock" box, set the internal clock to whatever sampling rate you want, then push the "Samplerate locked" button.
WHY you would want to do this is a different question alltogether.
PS: I've the DMX 6Fire 2496, so the layout of the control panel may be a bit different, but there should be a similar option.
WHY you would want to do this is a different question alltogether.
PS: I've the DMX 6Fire 2496, so the layout of the control panel may be a bit different, but there should be a similar option.
I don't think the Aureon series has the lock button anymore. This article has a screen shot of the panel: http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/terratec-aureon71/
In the case of the DMX 6fire 24/96, no sound comes out if you lock the sample rate to a wrong setting. It does not resample the source audio.
EDIT
This is only true with ASIO or Kernel Streaming output modes. Wave Out and Direct Sound go through the Windows kernel and it "helpfully" resamples everything to the sound card's setting.
QUOTE(Alex B @ Nov 19 2005, 09:27 AM)
QUOTE(2thumbs @ Nov 19 2005, 07:13 PM)
As the others have already stated, the card sets the master clock based on the input material. However, you can override that. In the "Settings" section, in the "Master Clock" box, set the internal clock to whatever sampling rate you want, then push the "Samplerate locked" button.
WHY you would want to do this is a different question alltogether.
PS: I've the DMX 6Fire 2496, so the layout of the control panel may be a bit different, but there should be a similar option.
WHY you would want to do this is a different question alltogether.
PS: I've the DMX 6Fire 2496, so the layout of the control panel may be a bit different, but there should be a similar option.
I don't think the Aureon series has the lock button anymore. This article has a screen shot of the panel: http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/terratec-aureon71/
In the case of the DMX 6fire 24/96, no sound comes out if you lock the sample rate to a wrong setting. It does not resample the source audio.
Hmm interesting. A friend of mine has the Aureon 7.1 Universe, that seems to have the locking feature. We used it to cure problems he had in MS flight sim.
A quick test here confirms that if I lock the rate at say 96kHz, and play back a 44.1kHz mp3, I do in fact still get sound. Whether or not the card itself does any upsampling, I've no idea; it definately downsamples though. If I force the rate to say 12kHz and play back an mp3, I can most certainly hear the effects... I hope I don't have to provide ABX results for that
Oops, you were faster.
My edit from my previous post:
And a new edit:
I tend to always use one of these bit perfect modes (ASIO & Kernel Streaming) when listening to the music. I forgot that there are the standard Windows modes too and someone may use them. The Windows Kernel Mixer is not one of the high quality resamplers as far as I know.
My edit from my previous post:
QUOTE
This is only true with ASIO or Kernel Streaming output modes. Wave Out and Direct Sound go through the Windows kernel and it "helpfully" resamples everything to the sound card's setting.
And a new edit:
I tend to always use one of these bit perfect modes (ASIO & Kernel Streaming) when listening to the music. I forgot that there are the standard Windows modes too and someone may use them. The Windows Kernel Mixer is not one of the high quality resamplers as far as I know.
QUOTE(2thumbs @ Nov 19 2005, 07:13 PM)
I don't think the Aureon series has the lock button anymore. This article has a screen shot of the panel: http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/terratec-aureon71/
in the case of the DMX 6fire 24/96, no sound comes out if you lock the sample rate to a wrong setting. It does not resample the source a
in the case of the DMX 6fire 24/96, no sound comes out if you lock the sample rate to a wrong setting. It does not resample the source a
Actually, there's a button beside the Master Clock marked "IP Voice". This sometimes locks the rate, though not always from my brief experience.
And yes, I am only interested in playback sampling rates.
However, I can hear a minute, yet definitive difference when sampling MP3s to 192000kz, as opposed to 44000kHz, with a Winamp Tweak tool. I also have high quality speakers. Moreover, I can hear a smoother sound, less rough texture; whereas with 48kHz its sounds comparatively choppy, as a low framerate is to one's eyes.
isn't imagination wonderful?
QUOTE(AndyH-ha @ Nov 19 2005, 09:12 PM)
isn't imagination wonderful?
Are those MP3s "Spectral Purity" ™ encodes?
.... just a thought, if your card is set to 5.1 (or higher) channel mode, I don't think it can progress 192khz. 96khz is the max for 5.1, 192khz for stereo.
(someone please back me up on this, I am unsure myself if thats true or not)
(someone please back me up on this, I am unsure myself if thats true or not)
QUOTE(Axl Rose @ Nov 19 2005, 06:30 PM)
... I can hear a smoother sound, less rough texture; whereas with 48kHz its sounds comparatively choppy, as a low framerate is to one's eyes.
/me hands over flame-resistant clothing to the original poster to make the pleasure last longer
BTW ... if you are interested in altering your MP3 sound, the new Creatiove X-Fi product line with the "Crystalizer" might just be what you need ...
I know they said it but I'll say it again (for emphasis).Axl Rose, dude, this is the card's driver switching to the needed sampling rate.
Why the hell would you resample? That's EXACTLY what the Envy24HT is for - TO AVOID RESAMPLING. You have bought a excelent card (especially for music) and are disrupting it's best feature. Shame on you. Simply let the card handle the sampling rate.
BTW, you should flash it to an Audiotrak Prodigy 7.1 and unleash its true potential. Auditrak's drivers are fantastic. I have the very same card and flashed it. My jaw dropped when I saw what this card is capable of but the drivers hold the card back.
The coat is a good idea.
As far as the X-Fi is concerned, I think he already has a better card than the X-Fi as far as quality is concerned. IMO Envy24HT based cards are still superior to both sound quality and especially price.
Why the hell would you resample? That's EXACTLY what the Envy24HT is for - TO AVOID RESAMPLING. You have bought a excelent card (especially for music) and are disrupting it's best feature. Shame on you.
Simply let the card handle the sampling rate.BTW, you should flash it to an Audiotrak Prodigy 7.1 and unleash its true potential. Auditrak's drivers are fantastic. I have the very same card and flashed it. My jaw dropped when I saw what this card is capable of but the drivers hold the card back.
QUOTE(JeanLuc @ Nov 19 2005, 11:38 PM)
/me hands over flame-resistant clothing to the original poster to make the pleasure last longer
BTW ... if you are interested in altering your MP3 sound, the new Creatiove X-Fi product line with the "Crystalizer" might just be what you need ...
BTW ... if you are interested in altering your MP3 sound, the new Creatiove X-Fi product line with the "Crystalizer" might just be what you need ...
The coat is a good idea.
As far as the X-Fi is concerned, I think he already has a better card than the X-Fi as far as quality is concerned. IMO Envy24HT based cards are still superior to both sound quality and especially price.
Come again, how do I 'flash' the Audiotrak Prodigy's driver to the card? What are the benefits and how are they accomplished? I chose the Terratec solely for music playback, and as you have said, it does music the best.
By the way, something very unfortunate happened to my speakers that I have neglected to mention. In the ControlPanel there are sliders for: Front, Surround, Centre, Rear Surround, and LFE. "LFE" is touted as a subwoofer control. Now let me explain my speaker set-up: I have a Promedia 5.1 Ultra, (and an extra subwoofer that is linked to the 5.1), and a Promedia 2.1. And like all multi-media products they are self-powered by the subwoofer's amp. So I thought that this LFE (low frequency signal) would be cut off at the crossover stage and only be produced by the subs. I was wrong. The signal, for one reason or another, was submitted solely to the Centre and Front channels, and consequently blowing them. upon discovering this, I muted the LFE signal to investigate; the centre channel took must of the brunt, and began making popping sounds, while the Fronts' midrange was supressed by the damage.
Can anyone give me a reason why this happened with the LFE signal?
I sent them in for repair, the Centre channel's cone had a convex ring in the centre, the coil looked like it was ready to pop out. Oops. I would have noticed the problem sooner, but the rest of the sattelites masked the hopelessly suffering centre channel.
Sorry to hear that. 
Just out of curiosity, where do you live? I might be wrong but it seemes to me that people outiside of Germany find it harder to get a Terratec sound card, and in Germany it's almost impossible (if not completely impossible) to find Klipsch products. At least where I live.
Unfortunately I can't help you on that issue.
But I can help you to flash your card into a Prodigy. I have done it and I helped a guy on this forum to do that as well. He was very happy with the result.
The process is flashing the eeprom chip on the sound card with the bios from Audiotrak Prodigy 7.1 since both cards (Prodigy and Aureon) are 99% identical.
All you need is the required files, a bootable DOS diskette and basic DOS knowledge. After flashing windows will recognize it as a Prodigy 7.1 and all you have to do is install prodigy drivers. Just like replacing you card with the other one physically.
The benefits? Countless may be. The Audiotrak driver installs two audio devices (one with and one without Qsound). You don't have to restart like an idiot everytime you want to change that like with the Terratec drivers. You also get an Equilizer (that alone is enough to try and flash), Qrumble (more bass), Qsizzle (great at restoring treble), Normalizer, 3D effect which either acts as a simple 3D sound or upmix from stereto to 4.1, 5.1 or 7.1. You get the ability to clone the output to all speakers, that way all speakers play what the fron are playing. Great for music listening. You get DirectWire, which I still have trouble understanding but it's nice to have. On top of all that the Audiotrak panel is 1000 times better loking and easier to use. As far as I remember the ONLY thing the Terratec drivers are better at is CPU usage but the difference is neglegible. Especially when you take into consideration what features you 'unleash' (literally). There are more feature, I list only the most important. Actually the Terratec drivers just might have some of these features but it has been so long ago that I had used them that I have completely forgotten what they were like.
Since we shouldn't waste forum space on that subject either write to my email or write yours to send you everything you need. My email: kip_ventzi@yahoo.com
The process of flashing is most likely easier than you think. Switching from terratec drivers to audiotrak ones is like switching from a Volkswagen to a Mercedes.
Actually getting the Terratec and flashing it is a bit better than getting the Prodigy. The Terratec bundle includes an optical cable, and the Audiotrak doesn't (AFAIK).
And you get PowerDVD with Aureon Space, and WinDVD with the Prodigy and we all know that PowerDVD is better than WinDVD.
Just out of curiosity, where do you live? I might be wrong but it seemes to me that people outiside of Germany find it harder to get a Terratec sound card, and in Germany it's almost impossible (if not completely impossible) to find Klipsch products. At least where I live.Unfortunately I can't help you on that issue.
But I can help you to flash your card into a Prodigy. I have done it and I helped a guy on this forum to do that as well. He was very happy with the result.
The process is flashing the eeprom chip on the sound card with the bios from Audiotrak Prodigy 7.1 since both cards (Prodigy and Aureon) are 99% identical.
All you need is the required files, a bootable DOS diskette and basic DOS knowledge. After flashing windows will recognize it as a Prodigy 7.1 and all you have to do is install prodigy drivers. Just like replacing you card with the other one physically.
The benefits? Countless may be. The Audiotrak driver installs two audio devices (one with and one without Qsound). You don't have to restart like an idiot everytime you want to change that like with the Terratec drivers. You also get an Equilizer (that alone is enough to try and flash), Qrumble (more bass), Qsizzle (great at restoring treble), Normalizer, 3D effect which either acts as a simple 3D sound or upmix from stereto to 4.1, 5.1 or 7.1. You get the ability to clone the output to all speakers, that way all speakers play what the fron are playing. Great for music listening. You get DirectWire, which I still have trouble understanding but it's nice to have. On top of all that the Audiotrak panel is 1000 times better loking and easier to use. As far as I remember the ONLY thing the Terratec drivers are better at is CPU usage but the difference is neglegible. Especially when you take into consideration what features you 'unleash' (literally). There are more feature, I list only the most important. Actually the Terratec drivers just might have some of these features but it has been so long ago that I had used them that I have completely forgotten what they were like.
Since we shouldn't waste forum space on that subject either write to my email or write yours to send you everything you need. My email: kip_ventzi@yahoo.com
The process of flashing is most likely easier than you think. Switching from terratec drivers to audiotrak ones is like switching from a Volkswagen to a Mercedes.
Actually getting the Terratec and flashing it is a bit better than getting the Prodigy. The Terratec bundle includes an optical cable, and the Audiotrak doesn't (AFAIK).
And you get PowerDVD with Aureon Space, and WinDVD with the Prodigy and we all know that PowerDVD is better than WinDVD.
Flashing the card to a prodigy 7.1 is a very easy step.
I flashed my card on the same day i bought the card because i was extremly unhappy with the terratec drivers.
I think the flashing process is very save. You can always flashing back the original eeprom anytime.
pm me if you need the read/flash tools for the card.
I flashed my card on the same day i bought the card because i was extremly unhappy with the terratec drivers.
I think the flashing process is very save. You can always flashing back the original eeprom anytime.
pm me if you need the read/flash tools for the card.
QUOTE(AndyH-ha @ Nov 19 2005, 01:12 PM)
isn't imagination wonderful?
In Axl Roses defence I actually have to say that I could reproduce some differences between sampling at 44KHz and 96KHz on my Terratec (DMX6Fire 24/96 with port bay), even though my findings do not back up his statement, doing the following:
- generating some white noise in Audition at 96Khz, 32 bit
- highpassing at 15Khz, 10th order filter
- duplicating the file and resampling the second to 44.1Khz, 16bit, with noise shaping and filter quality at maximum.
Listening to the files, taking the signal directly from the headphone port of the soundcard, I can hear a very definite extra noise present in the 96Khz version. Actually this extra noise is so obvious and it doesn't seem to be above 15Khz that I actually believe it is a problem with the card/driver. Yes, the control panel shows the clock change according to the signal, and my Receiver, which I feed through SPDIF also shows a different sampling rate. Listening to the samples on the receivers headphone port no such extra noise is audible.
Doing the test the other way around, generating the white noise at 44.1Khz, highpassing and then upsampling to 96Khz, which is a similar scenario to what Axl Rose described/wants, resulted in no audible difference.
EDIT: 3 words missing.
I think it is still possible to download the trial version of Audition. It has various tools that would show you anything you can hear in the files you resample, filter, etc. Possibly Audacity has some similar facilities but I don't know it.
QUOTE(AndyH-ha @ Nov 25 2005, 10:13 AM)
It has various tools that would show you anything you can hear in the files you resample, filter, etc.
Not if the difference comes from some part during or after the DAC, as it is clearly the case with my setup.
We'd have to redigitalize the analog output and then compare.
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