I'm wanting to purchase a portable MP3 player. The most important thing about it, which is going to make the sale, is audio quality - I want it to sound as good as possible for a portable device (both in terms of the mp3 decoding quality, and the audio chip itself?)

Not as important, but: I'd also like things such as reasonable storage (20G plus, more the better), OGG (possible FLAC) support, a UI that isn't slow and doesn't suck, and possible high quality audio recording via internal mic/line-in suitable for sampling random noises, but audio quality is really the big thing.

I'm planning on mostly using a pair of Sennheiser HD-280 headphones with it and various earphones, but also running it back into a mixer or two hooked up to monitors.

The iAudio X5L looks the most tempting so far, but I'm looking for people who have truly compared it against other offerings. I can be tempted into buying an iPod, but have heard that the 3rd/4th/5th generation iPods have much crappier sound than the earlier generations due to a different (not as good) audio chip being used or something?

I tried an iRiver H10 for a little while but really wasn't all that impressed with it - I'd prefer not to use an equaliser if possible (I like my music reproduced accurately), but found I had to use it extensively to get decent sound out of it. Is the H320 any better in terms of audio quality?

Advice appreciated.

Thanks.

The 5G's are considered the best so far, but I really believe most people have complained about quality on DAP's because of crappy headphones, unwise encoder settings, and even placebo, rather than the audio chip.

YMMV...

I've been reading buzz on various blogs that the new Kenwood MP3 players are the best when it comes to audio quality. Otherwise, I've found that Creative's players work very well for me - their extensive experience with audio cards definitely shows.

I gotta 2nd the 5g ipod. I've been really nit-picky w/ DAPs, I've gone through about 10-12 in the past 5 years & this so far is the ONLY one I've enjoyed using & been happy with. This is my first ipod- 1g-4g I never bought because I thought they sucked.

You must be joking! Just search here at HA for Creative and you'll see!
Don't get me wrong, they are experienced in making audio HW but they are definitely not considered as the audio HW leader!

For what it's worth, I'm a Rio Karma owner ( a happy one ) but they've left the audio small player business as it seems so I wouldn't look at their products very much.


What I really think is that you should take certain things into account before deciding.

Many here seems to be iPod owners, and it seems to be one of those items everyone "must have". However, I still haven't heard something reasonably good to why? most use the term "It's cool" and then you ask them, whatabout quality, and they go something about 70% market share... must be good... and the whole thing behind it is basically that they would never wanna admit they've made a bad decision in terms of value for money OR best quality (being different is painful I guess). Please take this into account when reading comments here, and _especially_ iPod ones.

Please also note things such as OGG or FLAC obviously was forgotten when they read what you'd wish for beyond quality issues (as if that isn't quality if something)


As far as I'm concerned, the iAudio X5 seems to the best choice on the market for now quality wise. Locally here they are quite rare, and I haven't actually used it to be able to give a good view on the software side (computer issues) about it. However, from the specs I've seen it seems to be the best of the best for now.

Why is iAudio brilliant?
- Audioquality (didn't it basically extend the chart after iPod got a 10/10, iAudio got 12/10?)
- Formats played - Awesome variety
- battery time.... makes iPod look like crap that's for sure

Just a few I'd take into account and which seems to be the most important ones to me when deciding. I know UI will be an issue, but since I got more than 50 in IQ, I can actually manage some other UI than a spinning wheel...

refixed, your criteria for a DAP is exactly like mine. If I were to buy one it would be between the iAudio X5L and the ipod, depending on which one gets Rockbox firmware first. Last time I checked, both were in the works but neither was finished. I have a Neuros 80gb which is fine, but I don't think Rockbox will be made for it. Also this model (NII) is discontinued now.

Were you using the HD 280s on the iriver? I have read that the 280s don't have much bass impact and sometimes need EQ to increase the bass (regardless of the source driving them).

I'll be happy to tell you why I went w/ the 5g ipod and am a happy customer...
-case design. this 60gb 5g ipod is the perfect size & look for me
-storage space. 60gb is a good amount for me
-video capability. it's a BIT lacking in the codecs dept. but it still suits my needs (I can watch south park just fine)
-the other litte features the add in. I can play doom! yay! I can throw on my calendar & contacts as well.

that said, the sound quality is great & the menu system is more intuitive than any other DAP I've owned.

Hope this can help quantify the points of the 5g ipod rather than the vague answers I'll agree with you about!

The 60GB iPod plays for 21 hours, while the iAudio X5 is listed at 14

The X5L is listed at 35 hours. Nothing can make 21 hours look like crap, but still he was talking about the X5L.

If you are concerned chiefly with sound quality, then I doubt that anyone will argue against a JetAudio player. They are one of the only ones, to my knowledge, to support FLAC. Which is obviously of higher quality than lossy formats. I have also been told that they are, electronically speaking, cleaner in their amplification.

The iAudio X5L plays FLAC, as well.

Any X5 or X5L users here? I'm curious if you're truly happy with the unit.

Sounds a lot to me like the H320 or the X5L is right for you. The H3xx series is a completely different beast than the H10 and considered far superior.

Another added bonus to an H320 is that it already has an early version of a working Rockbox port, so you'll have support for a multitude of codecs and gapless playback.

The X5L is an awesome unit too and you get that amazing battery life. Also in line for a Rockbox port as well.

Sweet. I wish I saw the H320 originally; it's actually only ever so slightly more expensive than the H10 (like, $10 or something). Damn.

Have there been any comparisons in terms of sound quality, though (esp. driving something such as the HD-280's, which appear to need a little more power)? That's what's going to sell me on the thing :-)

bump - nobody?

dont buy creative zen products.
they are by far one of the three womost RMA'ede products in my shop

Creative Zen
Kiss DVD players/records
Afrey dvd drive for PC

These 3 products are pure crap

If anything I'd think Creative's questionable sound quality on many of their sound cards, horrible support and tendancy to build hardware with ridiculous compatability problems would be a pretty strong reason to stay away from their DAP.

hi,
I can second the apple ipod G5. Very good very happy if it is what you want etc. (IE your music is tagged, your ok with using itunes)

also the x5 is very good... but different. Sound quality wise I dont know which one is better but I am shure you cant hear the difference.

I can hear a slight difference between the shuffle (best sound quality) and the G5. Bass is slightly more defined and rolled off but its nothing you would ever notice if you didnt switch headphone output between the players.
Apple fixed the ipod sound quality issues.

PS: Creative has a brand new mp3 player out (to compete against the G5).

the choice is yours. and it is not an easy choice

Shure E4C headphones

Hi.Its a hard question you ask.

I always use Koss KSC 35's and have owned a MuVo and an Ipod mini. With the same phones I have heard a 2nd gen 20 gig ipod and an iriver flash player using 128kbit "ish" ogg files.

Broad strokes. The 20 gig ipod had easily the most power and was very clean although a bit piercing when up loud.

The ipod mini sounds the best to my ears.Lots of power clean and smoother in the highs.

The iriver unit was also very good sounding with less power.The SNR was not as good as the other 3.Audible hiss but not enough to bother you if you were on the go.

The MuVo has the least power but is exceptionally clean with excellent bass. It's always been my favourite because of size but 128megs doesn't cut it with -V1 Lame files.

I can't comment on any other players except my old Sony cd player which was inferior to all of the above in power and clarity despite specs suggesting otherwise. They should stick there their crap equipment up their DRM'd asses says I and I thank them for helping me decide on an xbox 360 instead of the ps3.

But I digress....

I never said they were the leader. I only said that their experience shows. Creative's audio cards have rated pretty highly on review sites also. A lot of the critcism of Creative that I've read here seems to center on the effect their enhancements have on the audio being played. I've been the owner of an Audigy 2 NX USB2.0 card for almost 2 years and I've loved every bit of it. I like the effects added to the audio that can make a track sound completely different. G-Unit's Wanna Get to Know You, for example, sounds like it's being played by a live band if you turn on the EAX "Theater" DSP setting during playback. No, it's not how the song was intended to sound, but it's a nice rendition. Think of it as an automatic remix of sorts. I have other examples but I won't get into them.

My only strike against Creative is their marketing department seems to get carried away in some of the claims they make. Common sense and reading reviews before purchase usually eliminate such concerns.

By the way, if you have any other brand you'd recommend instead of them, please point me to review site. No offense but I rarely make purchases based on forum comments, I always read actual reviews. I'm aware of Terratec and M-audio but reviews for their stuff seem to be few and far between.

Well maybe this is pointing out the obvious, but this forum's average knowlege about audio (and that includes soundcards obviously) are worth well more than an "actual review", whatever that means. Do you mean an actual review is one by a paid reviewer at Cnet or similar, general site? If I'm looking for recommendations on anything audio, I come here and read because I know that the people here are way more knowlegeable about audio than some hack who reviews stuff for a living and publishes it on general tech sites.

I didn't mean that forums are of no value, they are valuable. However reviews tend to be a lot better at succintly presenting an overview of the general features of a product that is much easier to digest and interpret than disjointed comments from several people, however expert they may be.

By the way, Creative will be integrating its X-Fi technology into their MP3 players soon:

http://www.tgdaily.com/2005/12/08/creative...isionm_feature/

Sounds like snake oil to me:

How so? Clearly you can't increase the quality of a file, but you can make it sound different via DSP in a way that a listener's ears may interpret as a better sound. I absolutely love Creative's EAX and CMSS features. No, it won't make a 128kbps file sound like a CD, and in absolute terms the quality won't be increased, but it's hard to deny the difference it makes in the sound. That's the entire point.

I believe that when people come to HA.org to ask for views on 'better sound', they are asking for stuff that reproduces audio as close as possible to the original recording. Not for stuff that enhances treble or bass or anything that tricks the brain into thinking so.

You're right on the money there. I'm after something that will reproduce the sound as accurately as possible.

I know some people love Creative's EAX features - me, they make me run a million miles in the other direction.

The X5L seems to be a good choice. Anybody disagree?

Touche. But at the same time, the site's tagline is "the audio technology enthusiast's resource". EAX, X-Fi, and other processing "tricks", as you call them, fall under that umbrella. If the site's really about hardcore pure unadulterated reproduction of audio, it would/should reflect that in the tagline.

Experiment a little with "enhancements" now and then. You might be surprised at the dimension they add to your listening experience. . <- (Hey does this wink look like a frown or what? That's just messed up).

Anyway I suppose it's issues like these that define a person as either a technologist or a purist and highlights the differences between the two schools of thought.

Cheers.

Ended up buying a iAudio X5L. Very happy with it; choice of both headphone and line-out makes it perfect, really - the sound quality is brilliant - certainly blows every other portable player I've used out of the water.

Thanks to all!

What portable player sounds the best? That's a very good question. Let's think about it logically for a moment. Decode the MP3... Convert digital to analogue... Amplify. The amplifier is the weak link. Look for a husky amp. Can anyone say push pull output?

the better sounding equipment is the one that playsback as close to the original as posible.

I've owned the:
iRiver H1xx, 3xx, H10
iPod 3G, 4G, 4G Colour, 5G
Sony NW-HD1/3/5/A1000/3000
Rio Karma
Creative Zen, Zen Micro, Zen Touch
Toshiba Gigabeat...
And more. Many of them at the same time.


I think the standouts in terms of ultimate achievable sound quality have gone by the wayside. The 4G iPods were actually pretty good when paired with a high-impedance load. The Rio Karma was good (but utterly overrated by certain parties... it's not that good soundwise) and the Zens usually offered stable performance.


Nowadays I get the feeling that the whole quality thing has homogenised a lot more. The 5G iPod has improved in compatibility since the mono 4G (the colour 4G Photo was probably the worst-sounding iPod to date) and now offers sound quality comparable to iAudio / iRiver with the same headphone loads.


Sony always offers a consumer-friendly sound, which is perceived by some as higher sound quality. In terms of quality, they're once again comparable to the rest, or slightly lower. The Japan/Euro Kenwood with the (presumably class D) digital amp is an unknown. On Head-Fi there are a couple of enthusiastic reviews, but not yet from any source I'd tag as credible. I've lost interest for a while in constantly figuring out the bugs on an everchanging set of players and have decided to stick with the iPod. Generally speaking, despite it's problems the 5G iPod has worked out to be the best compromise so far, especially as I don't usually use EQ. At the moment I also have a couple of Sonys and an X5 gathering dust.


I think the choice these days is working out to more along the lines of what the player offers and how it offers it, instead of the sound quality. Most seem to have settled on 'good' as opposed to 'excellent'.

What do you mean by compatibility?



Is there a problem with the EQ?

I will be buying an ipod for my wife and just want to make sure I get the right kind.

Which one is 5G?

iPod Video?

I may be a little late in the discussion, but my views:

I used to have a 2nd gen iPod (10GB) back in June '03. In November of '03, I bought a Rio Karma (20GB). I must say, the karma beat the iPod in terms of quality, user interface, features, and just overall likeability. We all know the hard drives were not that stable in them though. It's a shame on Hitachi's part. I've owned my Rio Karma(s...I've had three) from November '03 to present. I then bought an iAudio X5 60GB last month...mainly for the formats supported & capacity. I only listen to OGG & FLAC. What the X5 does, it does it pretty good, however, it doesn't do a lot (that is, compared to the Rio Karma). The Karma will always be the reference, in my opinion. I just need my DAP for music; I don't need video playback, a color screen, or recording capabilities - just playback.

The things I hate most about the X5:
Lack of ID3 support
Yes, it will read your ID3 tags, but on the screen, all you'll see is artist, album, and title. The only other file-specific info that the X5 displays is the (nominal) bitrate of the file. You can't see genre, date, and other fields common in tags. You can't even see file length, size, date loaded, etc... (not related to ID3, but on the Karma, you could see all this info on one screen by pressing & holding the red button)

You can't select or filter playing music based on ID3 tags either. It's playlisting abilities suck (again, as compared to the Karma). Some people prefer directory structure over ID3-based selection, but I actually prefer a mixture of both.

The interface to transferring files to and from the device
Since the X5 is "just" a USB mass-storage-device, the method of transfer is really just Windows Explorer. No real interface to just add new files & etc. There may be programs out there (I've only had it for about a month), but according to what comes off the CD, the program is just a simple program utilizing Windows Explorer.

Physical ports
In order to charge the X5, connect the USB cable, or get the line in & out ports, you need this small little plug-in thing that plugs into the bottom of the unit. It comes with the X5. And that little thing doesn't even lock onto the connection port. I have my X5 connected to my car receiver, & I commonly have to re-plugin that "mini-dock" after making a sem-hard turn. I think this was to make the main unit smaller (compared to the iPod), but I could've lived with an extra inch!

All in all, as I said, I've only had it about a month, after owning my Karma for a little over two years, the X5 is OK for me, since my real requirements are just sound quality, OGG & FLAC playback, and high capacity. It's not really a bad DAP...it's just not the Karma

has anyone tested the new iriver u10?
I'm a creative unsatisfied owner, my muvo^2 is just very portable, but about sound/construction quality my old verycheap indian made cd-player was way better!
(and i think that's quite ridiculous)

I don't mean to flame, but your posts in this thread make me think that you just want to make yourself unpopular with this site's major target group. I'll just list up a few things to prove my point..
- WMA things in your sig
- WMP things in your sig
- Creative worshipping
- MSN blogs in sig
- your example of why you like Audigy2-added effects states its point using a G-Unit song
- conciliatory end to the quoted post using an "everybody has a good free opinion and we all respect each other and nobody could ever possibly be wrong so their poor feelings don't end up hurt ^___^"-type sentence

-> The sheer clichéd wrongness is hard to believe.







That is one of the things I absolutely depend on in a player: it has to work without using manufacturer-supplied bulky software with clumsy interfaces to transfer files to it. You can chase me over all kinds of mountains with iTunes. And yes, I've used it for considerable time (a year or two, I think), though on a Mac. I'm glad that for my current player, Foobar2k (which, unlike iTunes, can do proper shuffle), I can get a plugin to save me from having to install iTunes. But why bother with all that hassle if I can just drag and drop files onto the player instead?



Personally, I'm now looking into a Cowon iAudio X5L. Before that, I first wanted an iPod, mainly because of somewhat artificial support for APEv2 tags through foo_pod; then, I had my eyes on an iRiver H10 as an alternative to the rather large H3X0, until hearing a couple too many negative things about it. Flash players seem to be really bad regarding their price/performance ratio (I'm not going to pay about as much for a 2GB flash device than a 20GB HD device, thank you).

If it's not to late to post this, I owned the Iaudio X5L and it got stolen. But while I had it I was completely happy with it. I compared it to my friends Ipod, and the Iaudio X5 was much better in sound qaulity. The highs and lows are very strong in this unit, in fact my ears would often ring after I used it(and the volume wasn't that loud). I have very sensitive hearing though. I plan on buying another X5l.

It doesn't play back aac, so awesome may not be the best word to describe its format support. (especially when first complaining about the same attitude with ipod owners)

Anyway, I recently had to replace my old 3G ipod (dead battery was a good excuse) and looked into several players. I finally went with a new ipod, mainly because:

• I can rate songs on it and have it sync back to my pc
• It remembers playcounts and transfers them in my pc
• it supports both album art and lyrics on the device

You may laugh, but once you get used to smartlists based on playcounts and ratings, you never go back...

Some people have written some very good things abou the Zune's audio quality on headfi.com. (one person claimed that it "killed" a rockboxed X5 that he owned and was able to compare it to.)

The Trekstor Vibez is the successor to the Karma - same interface, features (cross-fade, versatile playlist options, gapless, etc). Less output though, so not able to push difficult-to-drive phones as well. 8 or 12 Gb capacity (15 Gb supposed to be coming soon). Some good reports around re: the sound quality.

I haven't heard them, but based on what I've been reading these players are among the best sounding (I'd love to read someone's comparison between the Zune and the Vibez, and the X5 for that matter).

The Kenwood referred to in this thread is very expensive and only available as an import, but supposedly has the best sound of any current player.

The best sound that I have experienced in a mp3 player is Aeroplayer software installed on my Palm T3! It supports gapless and a number of different compression formats.

The onus to all of this is that the ear phone jack of my T3 is giving me problems, the unit is a bit big, I don't know what the largest capacity of SD card can be installed and the biggest of all is an overwhelmingly short battery life.

Now if we could find what comprises the DAC & amplifier section of the Palm T3, link it to a processor that does not suck power like the T3, integrate the Aeroplayer software into an interface we would have a fantastic player that would negate many of the issues that we face with the current spate of devices.

On a side note, I just purchased a Philips SA9200 GoGear 2Gig player. Does not have a FM tuner, but actually sounds quite good - worlds away better than my 3G iPod (which sounds absolutely terrible).

If only i had heard that before I got my Ipod 5g a couple of weeks ago... I saw Iaudio's stuff, but I didn't see very much evidence for high sound quality. And I was pretty much positive that I would be able to keep an Ipod for a while. Is build quality an issue here?

Just wanted to add that the Vibez comes with a removeable battery (battery life claimed to be 20 hrs for audio).

I do not think that quality varies that much with portables. Read, decode, DAC, amplify, that's all a DAP has to do and none of these steps are really critical these days. As long as you get a reasonably quality type device, there should be no issues - however, on the lowest "chinese copy" models there may be lots of '$$ saved' on parts like crappy CPU working with outdated and intentionally reduced decoder, cheap AA-filter, weak, noisy amp.

Thus, all DAPs that are any good should not be able to be discerned from each other in a DBT (volume matched and all).

Another thing are headphones and their impedances, which may or may not work satisfying (especially in terms of volume) with one DAP or another (possibly one reason why non-BT AB tests reveal differences - unmatched volume). If you're on a budget, you should get a reasonable, but not overpriced DAP and shell the rest out for really decent earbuds (canalphones, maybe?), 'cause these determine the sound quality much more than the 'electronics'.

As said, beware of any EQs, 'enhancement' DSPs if you just use them because somebody said they make the quality better. Of course, if you like what you hear, by no means stop doing what you like

It would seem that this logic would also hold that all home stereo amplifiers (and CD players for that matter, and portable CD players, etc.) sound the same. I guess some people believe that, but I know that when I went to my NAD receiver from my previous Onkyo, there was a definite improvement in the sound quality (due mostly to the higher current, probably): also, my Sony D-777 PCDP sounds noticeably better than my Panasonic.

Re: DAPs, I'm sure most sound at least "OK" to most people, but for geeks (I mean, "enthusiasts" ) like me who frequent this place and other audio forums - it seems unlikely that everyone who has claimed to hear a difference between two players is a victim of the placebo syndrome (or merely mismatched volume levels, etc.). I would think that power output and quality of components could cause noticeable differences in SQ, at the same volume. That said, I would love to see results of DBTs of DAPs (unlikely, I know).

Agree that quality headphones are important (using OEM headphones would certainly lessen the ability to hear differences between players), and that many EQ settings make the sound worse (although there are exceptions, such as customizeable ones on the Karma / Vibez).

About sound quality of the Ipod, is it possible to connect it to a DAC, through the dock port. It is possible to put sound through it, and it doesn't look like it goes through analog. The Ipod has an FM reciever accessory that also has a wired remote and a headphone out, and if that includes a DAC, then isn't it possible to connect it to a third party one?

Amplification is quite critical. So much so that Etymotic created a new version of one of it's headphones to counteract distortions in frequency response from ipods. I have seen freqency response meaurements with headphones attached to the headphone out and they are not good.
Not only that but the internal amps are usually noisy and I doubt there is a consumer DAP that gives a completely black output to sensitive headphones.
DACs will be less critical.
Hard drive noise can be annoying and hopefully in a few years there will be DAPs with large non-hard drive storage.


The ihp-140 has optical out so that is probably a better choice if you need digital out.

I have an ipod already, im just looking to increase my options

Rockbox or iPod-Linux
Reason for me owning an iPod

If you are just intersted in an addition to your ipod then you should really try a flash based UMS (i.e. drag and drop file support) device. You might want to have a look at the new Cowon Iaudio D2.

Cowons reputation for sound quality is well established, this player has some great features and supports a wide range of formats, a whopping 74 mW output, a 50+ hour battery life, and still about half the size of a 5th gen ipod.

The 4 GB Iaudio U3 may be a good option aswell (tiny), or, if you can wait, the Iriver clix 2 (which is planned for release in late Feb I think).

Some of Samsungs offerings are really nice, but I'm not sure if they allow UMS file transfer.

Unfortunately, if most of your music is encouded using Apples propriatery format then your options are obviously MUCH more limited (unless you want the hassel of transcoding your entire collection - which is both time consuming and illadvised). This, of course, is one of the main gripes with the Apple DAP's. Compatability enslaves you to the brand.

Why would transcoding from Apple Lossless be "illadvised"?