What I would like to know is where you think my first investment in my audio-system should be. This is what I got:

Speakers: JBL - TLX161 - [original price: 1199DKR. ~ 157USD ~ 165EUR] * 2

Amp.: Technics - AV control stereo receiver SA-EX320 [couldn't find the original price - around 2000DKR ~ 263USD ~ 276EUR]

CD player: Yamaha - natural sound compact disc player CDX-396 [original price: 1695DKR. ~ 222USD ~ 234EUR]

Soundcard: AudioClip Pro 16-bit ES1868 PnP [old, really don't remember the price; very cheap...estimation, under: 200DKR ~ 26USD ~ 28EUR]

Is any of this any good?
What should I replace first?

You have different levels of 'good'...

I always like to think of an audio system as one complete thing, so if you have a system with $200 speakers with a $200 amp then it is pretty well matched. The next level might be $500 speakers and $500 amp, but read those reviews - price is not always an indication of quality.

If you want to start go for a modern sound card (with digital out for future amp), that would be your best bet.

I'd change the speakers first. I already saw "audiophiles" ampli or CD players in this price range, but never speakers.

I agree.

Plus, the loudspeakers are almost always the "weakest link" in the audio system, so to speak..

I'd spend as much money as you can there (plus a bit on a sub). You don't really need to spend a lot of money to get a good amp or cd player.

Oh, and beware of all of those "audiophile" reviews out there

A more accurate estimation for the sound card would be around 5-6 USD or less... so IMO it would be best to change that first

Do you burn cd's or do you hook your computer directly to your system? You may want to look at the soundcard if you are using it for primary playback.

But your biggest improvement for the buck is going to be new speakers.

Please give the B&W series 600 a listen. I go on about my 602's alot, but after selling stereo equipment for a long time when I was younger, I can say I have never been impressed by the value of a component more than what I hear from these speakers.

As far as reviews go, take a look at the what hifi and hifi choice websites. They are easy to navigate and hifi choice especially seems to give honest picks and pans.

PS We always used to advise our customers to spend about double on speakers compared to the amp as a rough rule of thumb.

kennedyb4:



What coincidence! My mother has a pair of B&W 602's. They're very nice indeed, they give crystal-clear sound, although I'm not that impressed by the bass they produce (it sometimes "sticks out" where it shouldn't do, and where it should sound rich and deep, it sounds too thin). Maybe that's just me though, or the setup of the room...

These speakers are not bad at all.
But most people find them to bright in the high frequency.



I would advice to upgrade the speakers first, and then the amplifier.
The difference between cd player is extremely small.

I'm the lucky owner of a pair B&W 802 Matrix III speakers.
They sound natural like it is intend to sound.

Sometimes you can get second-hand B&W 800 series speakers for a reasonable price.
This is because B&W have the new nautulis 800 series.

The B&W 801 are often used in studios like "abbey road studios".
The 801 is one the most expensive ones, the higher the number the smaller and cheaper they are.

if you're going to replace your speakers and probably your amp too, you should really try different speaker/amp matches.

i don't know whether it does apply to the price level you're aiming for as much, but here's just an example from my test listens when i was buying my last stereo (sorry, sadly i can't remember the exact names of the Amps. i think the parasound was a hca1200 and the rotel a 930, but i could be wrong. that was a couple years ago):
Parasound Amp + Infinity 8.2i: quite good, powerful yet uncolored sound
Parasound Amp + JBL TI5000: harsh, lifeless

later (i WISH it would have been before before, i'd most likely own a different setup in that case ) I had a chance to listen to a different amp in the same chain (same chain, same room, same speaker placement etc)
Rotel Amp + Infinity 8.2i: colored so warm and "sweet" it almost made me puke
Rotel Amp + JBL TI5000: neutral, very dynamic, live-like and ear-pleasing

i wish i knew why the differences are that huge, it's completely losing me..

I would go speakers first then soundcard. Most lowend amps/cd players are good enough that the limiting factor would be the speakers. I would then upgrade amp, then cd player. As for speakers, I haven't been following the current models but I'm partial to definitive technology.

Your audio need may vary from mine. But I'd upgrade to a €500 + €1000/pair speakers. You might find satisfaction in cheaper models, but soon the need for upgrades will arise again.

I absolutely recommend an analog amplifier - not a receiver and not a digital thing.

- Amplifier technology has not changed much for 20 years or so. An €500 analog amp will serve you 10-15 years. A digtal will soon be outdated, as new digital technology see daylight every few years. Better to get an external DAC or a really good sound card and let the silent pc convert.

- Digital amplifers are mostly designed for the movie experience -- not for music. Sony's QS series has a beautiful aluminium front panel but does a poor job amplifying music.

- It might be possible to build a good amplifer with a built-in tuner. It is however VERY easy to build a real bad one. I have never heard/seen a good receiver.

Since you live in Denmark, I am going to provide you with two resources:

A: http://www.hifiklubben.dk
I do not recommend their products, but they have a nice way of doing business.
* You can listen to the amp and the speakers you intend to buy in the store.
* You can probably borrow the amp and speakers over the weekend if you ask nicely.
* You can buy the items and test them for 8 days - return them for a FULL refund if you are not satisfied.

B: http://www.audiosound.dk/
Mail order store based in Nakskov. Has been around for at least six years. They are usually a lot cheaper than normal stores.

There is only so much that physics will allow from a box this size and price.

I use a Paradigm PS 1200 subwoofer for 60hz and down. No problems there.

As far as these speakers sounding bright, that is not an accurate statement. If they are connected to a cheap transistor amp, they will sound edgy for sure. I have a SE tube amp as well and it is warm as can be but wildly underpowered.

All B&W speakers will display system faults without mercy higher up the chain.

I'm glad i read that..thanks.
Since you know much about all this, i'd be glad to get a recommendation for an amplifier from you, or a link to a site/s about it (i'm not dutch.. so can't really use the links you gave there ).

Definitely speakers. I have a $700 CD player and a $350 receiver pushing $1600 worth of loudspeakers. I could instead have a $200 source component and receiver and I'd still have the pricey speakers. As long as the speakers don't provide an impedance problem, I don't think "audiophile" front-end equipment is necessary, unless you like labels.

One of the favorite memories of my rec.audio.opinion newsgroup days was the thread detailing an ABX test between a Yahama receiver and some high-end amp (a Krell, I think). A self-proclaimed golden ear could not distinguish the two in the double-blind test. His room, his musical material and he still failed.

Hi.

Are you suggesting that all amps sound the same?

Green marker pen.

Basically. Solid-state amps connected to speakers with normal impedance curves basically all sound the same. Tube amps or solid-state amps connected to esoteric loudspeakers (think electrostatics) will sound different.

That doesn't mean "buy the cheapest amp you can find", it means "before you replace your amp, try rearranging your room, adding room treatment, moving your loudspeakers and/or replacing your loudspeakers." These can provide far more satisfying gains in quality.

We had a very expensive switching system in the audio shop I worked at that allowed you to switch between 10 amps, 8 or so sets of speakers etc.

It allowed us to a/b stuff for the customers.

We sold over the years NAD, Rotel, Sansui, Sony ES, Celestion, Boston Acoustics,PSB, and tons of stuff I can't even remember anymore.

The differences in the way the amps sounded was very easy to pick out most of the time. The top of the line Sony Esprit amps sounded very sharp and irritating compared to the NAD and Rotel stuff. Less impact at similar volumes. Lots of variability in the mid bass attacks. Low bass slam was easy to a/b between Sansui power and Nad.

The switcher was relay based, with short signal paths, gold plated contacts, banana plugs etc. Nice well thought out unit.

We switched inputs around to confirm we were actually hearing a difference.

Maybe you should check out a higher end audio shop that has a similar switcher.

I agree with you about some audiophiles though. Some of our best customers had more money than brains.

We used to hook speakers up out of phase and then listen to them comment on the "precise stereo imaging" of the system.

Funny. I always thought most "audiophiles" that buy the really extreme products just do it to show off that they have a lot of money.

How did you calibrate the levels when switching between the different amps? I mean, if you play at different levels, it would be natural to hear different bass punch, "timbre" etc, because of the shape of the equal loudness curves.

Thanks guy!
Now I know where to put my money.
Sadly you choose the most expensive part, speakers :-/

My Soundcard will have to go when I get a new computer anyway so I think that will be the first I replace after all.
I'm not shopping for new equipment just now.

On the topic of danish HIFI stores, I'd like to recommend Tape Connection. They have a broad range of products, usually priced lower than other stores. For example, they have the lowest price on Sennheiser HD600, I've seen anywhere (in Denmark).

I guess some do. Lots od them thought more expensive meant better, which is really not true of audio equipment especially.

As for levels, tone controls were either defeated or set to 0. Volume levels were easy to balance for obvious reasons.


PS We never sold any of the really expensive stuff. Mostly we were trying to promote better quality stuff but affordable.

I vote for the speakers too. But keep in mind that the space you are using the speakers and the installation (placement) is very very significant. Choose speakers that match your listening environment.

The following is not meant as a joke!

While listening to music, your mood and the images you see affects the sensation in no small terms.

Try closing your eyes and you will find the it a lot easier to concentrate on the music. Try listening to music after a bad argument with the gf/wife/boss/whatever. It does not sound good at all.

If you are serious about music, you must chose a system that will satisfy you desires. It is important that is looks good in your eyes. Your mood improves when you look at plesent things. Your mood deteriorates when you look at unpleasent things. You might even begin to stress about having spent money and time on a system you don't like.

Showing off is important too. I call this the WOW effect. Impressing other people with your system improves your mood. Getting people's pitty does not.

It is even possible to be so happy about your system, that you cannot hear the obvious defects.

I can very well hear the obvious defect, but obviously, it's just a false feeling I have, because I've been too long used to a bad sound before. When I am used to the good new expensive gear I just bought, those ugly defects won't hurt my ears anymore

Aaah !
So it was on purpose !
I wondered why I always had to tell the guy that the speakers he was making me listen to were out of phase... (The red plug into the red terminal, and the black one into the black one, is it so complcated ?!)

You know what the problem is, most stereo shops can't afford super expensive cables so they wind up using rolls of 16 or 18 gauge lamp cord.

The + and - terminals are unmarked so its easier to screw up the connections.

i second that

Tape connection are about 1000dkr (~125u$) cheaper then hifi clubben on the denon avd1 somehing something

Funny, I just talked about this amp test at R.A.O. in another thread.

About amp comparisons, to be reliable must be done in a blind style, preferably double blind.

And about level matching, that is a thing not so obvious to do. A level match "by ear" is not reliable either. Levels must be matched with a voltmeter, or soundcard, or any other means of objective measuring, and the two amps or devices under comparison must be matched with a max. level difference of 0.1 dB.

I found the original price for my soundcard...the rest I estimated was correct:


Soundcard: AudioClip Pro 16-bit ES1868 PnP [280DKR ~ 37USD ~ 38EUR]


That changes nothing I guess.

I have the following hardware:

Soundcard:
Emagic EMI 2|6

This is an external USB AD/DA converter. This is professional stuff (so it’s expensive: > $ 400) but the sound is incredible. You have 6 analog output able to reproduce in 24 bit/96 khz. So it’s far enough for an mp3 or a wav. But even for a 16 bit/44.1 khz, the sound is really great. You can use the 6 output for a DVD in 5.1, if you have the amp and the speakers for it.

Amplifier + speakers:
I’ve used to hear to very good speakers in studio and in my living room, but I have discovered great speakers during a trip in San Francisco (I’m from Europe): Monsoon.
This is an electro-static flat panel with integrated active crossover, amplifier and subwoofer. So you plug it in the output of your soundcard and it works. The clarity of the sound is incredible, particularly for the price: $ 150. For me, the sound is better than my old loudspeakers (Vandersteen) at $ 2 500. The subwoofer is a little bit weak. It’s also very directional so when you are at the right place it’s really amazing, if not it’s still better than other speakers.

So for a first replacement, I warmly recommend the Monsoon MM 702 (see http://www.monsoonaudio.com/index_mmedia.htm).

For the 5.1, I combine the MM 2000 with MM 702.

The differences we were able to pick up were not related to volume, but to things like atack, slam, space, and air. Forward positioning of voices in the soundfield was also a dead give-away for the cheaper transistor amps. The chip amps were also easy to pick up.

And I know audiophiles go on and on about such things, but the differences were there.

The person operating the switcher had to know what he was touching but the listeners were blinded.

Saying that all amplifiers sound the same is not a credible statement in my opinion.

attack, slam, space, air, timbre, bass punch, crystal clear highs, soundstaging and other audiophile terms depend on volume to some extent. So without careful calibration with wattmeter or decibelmeter any comparisons of these qualities would be flawed. That's why I (and I guess also KikeG) asked you how you did it.

That'a good thread to append my speaker questions

I dont have so much money to spend, so I guess it will be bookshelf speakers with a sub, not floor standing ones as these are rather expensive if in a good class. Could you give me some suggestions which ones I should give a closer look? And an amp advice would also be fine.


thx

Do you believe that all amplifiers sound the same? Or are we just discussing test procedures?

We matched the volume of the amps by ear. The sensitivities of the speakers we were connected to were all different so this was the only way we could quickly switch back and forth for the clients.

Undoubtedly, there is room for error in such a setup. We were as carefull as possible in setting the levels, as many customers not wanting to believe that amps could differ greatly raised the same concerns.

Remember, we didn't really care which sounded best, and if a cheaper amp had the better sound on a given speaker, so much the better for sales.

Volume mismatches were not responsible for the differences we heard.

My belief is that the loudspeaker has much much more influence on the sound than the amplifier. It's not very difficult to build linear amps with moderate noisefloor for moderate amounts of money with the semiconductor technology we have today. Unfortunately there is no such "miracle medicine" for the loudspeakers (or listening rooms for that matter).

But of course you are right in that there are differences between amplifiers. What I believe is that differences between amps are so much smaller than the differences between various loudspeakers.

I agree with all of that completely. The speakers have the greatest influence on the sound with any reasonable quality amp.

You can't be sure of that.

In the past there have been experiments of blind tests where the only differences between the two devices at test (or better say "signals") were small volume differences. The listeners, who weren't aware of this, were convinced that they were different devices, and reported the louder device always as sounding much better, with more "air", "warmness", "liveness", etc. They also were convinced that the device with less volume was much worse.

The power of the amplifier can make a difference. Audiophile amplis range from 7 to 200 watts, that's quite a difference.

Yes, that's true. A very low power amplifier will distort much before as the listening volume is raised.

where are You located and how much money would You like to spend ? if both are similiar to Jan S. 's - then just check the suggestions he was given .

This discussion will not have a resolution, I guess.

We took as much care as we could, and were initially skeptical as well.

I agree that differences in volume could easily cause trouble in an abx test, but as I have mentioned twice now, the outputs were matched quite carefully.

If you wish to believe that all amps sound the same, OK

If you wish to believe that all audiophiles are purchasing upscale amps for reasons not related to their sound.....

Some of the tonal and spatial differences were audible at any volume. Things like bass slam were different no matter how loud you played the music. Some of the amps, especially some of the older Rotels just seemed to have better control of the larger drivers.

All amps does definitely not sound the same. But careful measuring of output levels can be useful for ensuring that no amp does get any advantage over another in any respect.

Volume difference does indeed make a huge difference. Check the old thread about the WinAMP SSRC plugin. Quotes like: WOW sounds so much better and louder...

Two good amps should probably sound the same. But how do you decide if an amp is "good"? In mid 90s, several Denon amps sounded too "bright". These were amps in the $150 - $600 range.

I believe that, after all, this is what happens many of the times, same as with CD players.

I think that a good $500 amp (or less if you don't have low impedance/low efficiency speakers or need high listening levels), or a good $500 cd player (or probably cheaper) are undistinguishable from a good $5000 amp or cd.

There are many technically experienced people at the rec.audio groups that have years of experience in this camp, and that support this ideas too (in fact, I learnt some of these from them). However, and as one can suppose, there are many people, more of the audiophile camp, that totally disagree.

Now, I'm quite convinced that my computer-based audio setup of a $200 30W (ref. 8 Ohm.) Pioneer integrated amp plus my $150 M-Audio Audiophile soundcard, can't be distinguished in moderate (better say "comfortable") listening levels with regular speakers, in a blind test, from an ultra-expensive amp and cd player. I am convinced not for how they sound, but for how they perform, objectively, via measurements.

However, I'm open and truly interested to see if anybody can prove me otherwise. That's why I set up a soundcard challenge at my personal web page, www.kikeg.arrakis.es (more info at http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....8d768a1ee713d2a )

Maybe I will try something similar in the future, but adding amp influence to the test. However, I think this wouldn't be as representative of amp full actual performance, as a line level device is.

hi maciey

Kennedy was the only one who made a suggestion (B&W 602), I cant find any others. I had already marked the B&W DM303 and 6xx series to give them a try when I have the possibility to do a test listening. But maybe their sound doesn't please me so I would like to know at least two or three other recommended models.

I live in Austria and I dont know any (more special) Hi-Fi stores here. I found out about some but it could be that no one carries the brands I'd like to listen to. So maybe I will make a short trip to Germany. As I am not able to travel every week thus far (already 450km to the border), I would need some names before that (other than B&W), hope you understand. Then I could visit some shops there and do extensive listening work

It's not so important if the brand is not widely available, possibly I will find someone who has it. Just gimme some recommendations.

thx

P.S.: price: *upper* limit similar to the B&W 602 s3, which is about 250€ per speaker. Cuz maybe I need a sub too, which is not cheap at all. Or if someone knows of *good* and relatively cheap floor standing speakers...which I guess is hard to find

theduke - i don't think i can help You much in this case... i remember seeing speaker reccomendation by e.g. Annuka in Hydrogenaudio Forums - so it must've been another thread. Personally i have El Cheapo Tannoy M1 speakers and i'm VERY VERY happy with them (i can only listen to them twice or so a week and most of the time i listen through headphones).

EDIT: i can't wait to hook some (remotely) decent sub along with them but guess... no cash

PSB also makes excellent affordable speakers

KikeG- FWIW I dont consider myself much of an audiophile unless you take the term in the broadest sense of the word.

Like I said, most of the stuff we sold was affordable. Does a ten grand Mark Levinson amp sound 10X better than a thousand dollar Rotel? I doubt it.

My favorite is the $250 american interconnects or thousand dollar power cords that people buy.

I just wanted to relay that with the set-up we had, we were able to pseudo abx stuff and there were noticeable differences in amps by different manufacturers that were more or less in the same price point.

The differences were subtle compared to the differences heard in speakers that were similarly priced.

Amplis have maybe a more different sound if they are used at high volume, because each one will start to distort in its own manner.

Haha. Blast from the past