Oh my, it is so cool really, if i wanted one before, now i have to have it. Interface is so intuitive, it is a video ipod. So i watched videos, played photos. All so well designed. When i opened a folder with like 50 fotos, i used the click wheel to browse the fotos, and they loaded insntly, and i mean "now". It is really an excelent piece of hardware. I played "better man" from Robbie Williams, and it showed a picture of him. Only problem is that now i want a video iPod, instead of the nano, but i'm afraid it is not the best choice for jogging. Does de nano shows pictures?

At least Apple claims that it supports fotos and album art but doesn't support video.

Take a deep breath now Kwanbis....

The nano does audio and photos, but equaliser distorts the music and it skips some LAME encoded MP3 files.

The video ipod does video too, the equaliser works and it plays mp3 without stuttering, and the output can drive high impedance headphones, but the user interface is significant slower than what you experienced on the nano.

Both the nano and the video has an impressive resolution on their colour display.
On the other side of the coin: Since the pixels are now so close, each scratch does relatively more damage than on the previous iPod's.
A proper case with screen protection is therefore required with the new iPods - unless you want to put it in a museum.

PS: I fell in love with the nano when I first tried it out. Its operation is outstanding and it plays loud and clear. I was simply stunned and for a moment I forgot its small drawbacks.

Now I have a video iPod, and when Apple get round to releasing a 2G nano without stuttering and one that doesn't scratch as easily, I buy one too.

ain't that easy


so you are sure that even with the EQ turned on, the nano skips? but the video ipod does not skips with the EQ turned on? and how does the nano's distorts the music?


i tried a video ipod, not a nano, and the interface seemed ok.



i don't know what to do really, i don't wanna buy a nano, and then apple releases a fixed one in a month (any insider info on next release )

Honestly, how long could your eyes survive watching a movie on a itty bitty 2.5 inch screen? Get a portable media center (such as the zen vision) with a much bigger screen if you are serious about videos and movies. Get an iRiver, or a cowon iaudio x5 if you are serious about audio

Heh... To me, the ipod is nothing special. Its a good mp3 player, but there are so much better ones. Most people seem to just buy it because they dont know any other ones. (I was told a couple days ago that there were two brands of portable audio players: iPod, and MP3 -.-)

i know many other ones, but:

1) iriver, have one, not very impresive, interface sucks.
2) iaudio, numbering scheme sucks, marketing sucks, but is my other option, don't know about interface

anyway, i'm considering a NANO, not the video iPod, cause i want it for jogging.

Is watching video while jogging really a good idea?

well, i actually do it on a gym, so i see no problem, anyway, i'm looking for a NANO, not VIDEO iPod.

iPod interface will also suck if your files aren't tagged properly ... and iPod sucks since you need third-party software to transfer/organise your music on it ...

Once I got used to my iRiver H120, I wouldn't have exchanged it for any iPod ... although the click wheel navigation with On-The-Go playlists is really impressive ...

Not to mention the gapless playback and other things that Rockbox added to the H1xx and H3xx now.

The iPod is a fine player but if I had to replace my H140 now it would probably be an iAudio X5.

The archos av3xx is amazing for video. Iv had mine for a while now, and they are great. Plays native DIVX/XVID video

My friend has a nano. The only "small drawback" is that it's small enough to be considered a "concealled weapon". It's cool, but ok we are just following Moore's Law? It's great if you are into "mini toy models" or couldn't care otherwise. I am slightly biased though if I was going to go with a DAP I would buy back an IRiver H140 after thoroughly inspecting the glorious firmware on the Rockbox, but that's just me.



Pretty much it's the same philosophy with Creative Labs

No, no, no.

The nano skips, but not when certain EQ settings are used such as Bass Reducer. However when using the nano EQ the sound may sound slightly distorted during loud parts of a song.

The video iPod is super in every respect, less the absence of gapless playback.

Do you know a player that doesn't have problems with badly tagged files?
Anyway iTunes is great for tagging.
iTunes is really all you need to get trouble free music file administration and a great DAP listening experience.

as sehested said, all players suck if not properlly taged files are feeded. Also, apple is the only company offering a 4GB flash player. most flash players are 1gb, apple starts a 2. As i said, iaudio is my second choice. I'm still ooking at it.

Just got a 30GB iPod video to replace my old (but trustworthy) Nomad Jukebox 3. Lame MP3s all sound great, and I'm currently in the sloooooow process of converting DVDs to H.264 video. The screen is surprisingly watchable - I thought it would be a gimick. I'm excited about being able to actually WATCH my live NIN DVD instead of just listening to the CD version!

Nothing to add to this discussion really - just wanted to gloat

Amen!


Halleluja!

Geez... I thought all of you had a DAP capable of running the Rockbox firmware and using the firmware with it

It's in my opinion the ultimate DAP solution. I can't wish for anything else; I have an IHP-140 with a slightly modified firmware. Gapless playback of all my favorite codecs (Ogg Vorbis, LAME MP3, MPC and FLAC), Replay Gain, and a customisable "While Playing Screen". Oh, and it can handle Replay Gain and APEv2 tags on my MP3's as well

Well ok but almost all of those benefits mentioned are derived from Rockbox firmware.
As I understand from it's wiki there's a versiom being developed for iPod.
I kinda think that it's easier to use iTunes until Rockbox comes out than to hunt down discontinued Rio and iRiver models.
Anyway I mat be wrong, I have a 4G iPod but in my country there isn't much of a choise for HDD players: mostly Apple, Creative and rarely Sony.

Except for ones like mine which utilise filetree navigation.

But it is extremly slow on any computer thats not made within the last couple years ;O

*yawns* what a useless topic of discussion. It only serves for eliciting zealot posts. You like iPod, good for you & enjoy it. Please try to post facts than biased opinions. After all, this is HA not Apple fan boards.

The nano works very well for running. I haven't had any problems with skipping. I also don't miss the capacity of a larger ipod, as I'm seldom away from a computer with music for long.

The shuffle is also very nice for running.

We're going down a VERY familiar road here. "ipod sucks" , "iriver navigation sucks", "ipods are the best". In order to figure out which player is right for you, you need to figure out what your priorities are.

-sound quality?
-ease of use?
-freedom from third party software?
-memory size.

No player is perfect, and few of the top brands are BAD. If you buy into the anti-ipod hype and care most about audio quality, then you might want to go with another player. If you care mostly about interface, ipods are hard to beat.

Me? I'm undecided between an ipod video 60gb and an iaudio XL5 60gb. Both have their strong points. From what I understand, the XL5 has fantastic audio quality compared to the ipod. Of course, I don't have an iuadio XL5 lying around to ABX for myself, so I have to go on the opinion of others. But I want id3 browsing, even though as long as you have a well maintained file structure, the learning curve on any player should be easy.
Too bad the iriver H1-- series isn't around anymore. I'd take one of those with rockbox any day! Here's hoping it comes to the X5!!

no skipping with my nano, and all my files are 3.90 preset extreme or 3.96b1 vbrnew v0.

my lossy collection alone is on the verge of becoming too big for even the largest ipod, so external hard drive + nano with well designed smart playlists is the way to go.

my last portable used filetree navigation, and tag-based navigation beats the snot out of it. although if you've got the music collection but not the tags, it ain't easy.

loading up through itunes isn't all that bad, just keep a copy of ipodutil stored on the ipod itself in disk mode in case you ever need to copy your music off.

I agree. There is no perfect player. If there was there would be that one player and no others. If people are happy with their iPods I'm happy for them. Just like I'm happy with my machine.

yes, kill the zealotry. And how in God's name (in the case of Iaudio) does your distaste for a company's marketing have anything to do with considering the player itself?

Also, Apple used a strongarm tactic to get that extended flash memory for bargain prices, before all the competition...doesn't make them better...just more opportunistic and/or ethically-challenged.

I've honestly seen 1 or 2 zealoty posts and about 15 anti-zealot posts here. In between, there is an actual comparison discussion of portable audio player features. These threads CAN be useful for those in the market, and a new one is necessary every few months. So try and stay on topic?

According to the Rockbox wiki, an iAudio port is already in the works - but in a very early stage - may take a long time until it becomes useful for endusers.

yes no player is perfect, that is why i'm still undecided.

As i said, i'm between iPod and iAudio. I think they are the only really interesting companies.

I really didn't have good experience with iRiver, and Vorbis support is pretty lame (no pun intended ), so it is no-go here.

I really don't like to pay the "Sony-Tax", and i hate their software, a no-go also.

Creative, and the rest look uninsterested to me (but i'm open to someone showing otherwise).

Now that i have told what i don't want, i would like to say what i do want.

What i want is a 60GB player. What i need is a flash based player, cause as i said, i'm afraid a HD based one wold be too much sensitive to shock for running on a gym, but i may be wrong.

At the same time, i'm afraid of the flash memory "memory efect"; AFAIK, after n number of writes, the flash memory would stop working, or would start making errors.

That said, i'm looking for a good quality player, the better the best. But consider that i listen all the time bya my ThinkPad's internal sound card, and i see no problem.

Ease of use is a very important thing. I'm a techy, and i can get use to using whatever interface, but why make it complex?

Freedom from third party software is ussualy an issue, but in the case of the iPod, there is oficial Windows and Mac support, and unoficial Linux support, and being the standard, this shouldn't be an issue. Havent said that, i would prefer no software at all.

Memory size, i would love a 60 GB Flash Player, but it wouldn't happen now. At the very minimum 2GB is a must, but the more, the best.

About Rockbox formware, it is something i really think is nice, but, most of the time, by the time they finished, the products tend to be discontinued.

About iAudio, it is very confusing they producst, they look very similar, are priced similar, etc, so it is very confusing to deside which one is best, or what diferences they have.

Than again, i would like this topic to be a "non zeallot" discusion, for real help.

edits: rephrasing, and correction.

Much better. I agree that Iaudio products are hard to differentiate between. Just be aware that the main flash player differences in their product line are battery (internal Li-Ion vs. AA vs. AAA) and thus battery life and player size; the rest being pretty much equal.

I've had personal experience with the Iriver support for Ogg (on my IMP-350) and it is indeed laughable. Iaudio puts them to shame in this department.

i have read about iAudio U3, but the 2GB is about 240 dollars, almost what costs the 4GB iPod, for example.

thanks. i would love to see a good table with their diferences (Flash and HD).

That's a value assessment you have to make. There's little I would like more than a 4GB flash player from Iaudio. Newegg had the I5 up until recently...I no longer see it on their site so availability may be limited.


I'm not aware of such a table BUT it wouldn't be too difficult to make.

I5 = AAA, up to 20 hrs of batt. life (ideally)
F1 = internal Li-Ion, up to 20 hrs (ideally)
G3 = AA, up to 50 hrs (ideally)
U3 = internal Li-Ion, up to 20 hrs (ideally)

I think the U3 and F1 have the added benefit of txt and image viewing as well with a more advanced screen, since they are newer models.

Yes, nice to see we're back on topic. DO we in fact have any folks here that have heard the ipod video AND the iaudio x5? I too find them to be the most interesting companies right now.

that would be cool.

I bought a 30g iPod a month ago. I considered the iAudio, but could not find a local reseller. I like to buy in a traditional store so I can get in somebodies face if something goes wrong. I also like the 'no questions asked' replacement policy at my local store.

That being said, I am quite happy with the iPod. The sound quality is great with my Sony earbuds, my Bose headphones, and hooked up to my home stereo. I also have no problem with LAME -Vx. I've tried -V 0 down through -V 5 and didn't encounter any problems at all.

I also have a 1g Shuffle, but it doesn't like anything beyond ABR. Sorry, I can't speak on the Nano.

I didn't want to be locked in to iTunes for management, but since I have to keep a Windows computer on hand for work it's not really that big of a deal. I've been wanting to try one of the Linux based alts, but since the monitor for that computer died it is going to have to wait a while. (I'm saving up for one of those crazy hot flat panels!).

-EDIT for spelling.

get a small flash based player for the gym. they cost next to nothing.



from
http://www6.head-fi.org/forums/showthread....t=152662&page=3

Actually, the iRiver models are quite easy to use in file explorer mode so there is no real need for database functionality. Boot-up times are faster with DB disabled, too ;-)



iTunes is a good all-in-one solution ... but I don't trust its ripping engine and its MP3 encoder so the advantages of Gracenote naming and tagging are useless for me bacause I use EAC for ripping and tagging.



If you are satisfied with most simple solutions, this may be true ... I am running a 300GB music database with iTunes at the moment ... browsing the DB is indeed stable (although very slow), 'intelligent' playlists are fine and the interface is acceptable. On the other hand, iTunes is a real memory hog, needs lots of CPU resources, skips playback from time to time, doesn't allow to play back other codecs and cannot be configured that easily or doesn't allow to alter settings like other players do.

Anyway ... if someone is happy with an iPod, it's perfectly OK with me because it makes my personal choice of DAP more exclusive ... ;-)

I don't trust its ripping engine either, except for brand new CD's. Instead I use a two step process combining PlexTools and iTunes. This way I get perfect rips with Gracenote tagging.
iTunes has large footprint I aggree. However it is extremely flexible for someone with a some programming skill to write scripts that control iTunes.

Example: I rip to ALAC and transcode to AAC for my iPod. ALAC files are streamed to my living room stereo. I use Salling Clicker as remote and this gives me the same interface as on my iPod. I can browse genres, podcasts, find artist, see lyrics right on the phone.

Now that is just an example of how inflexible iTunes can be (ironic)

Anyway I could not do without foobar for playing other codecs and doing ABX comparisons.

I bought a new iPod Video 30GB for my wife. It is quite okay when compared to a Rio Karma.

Bottomline: There are better DAPs out there. You just have to look around.

It depends what you want in a player, iPods tend to just get the job done (which is to listen to music and find it quickly) and other players tend to compete by adding features (FM, line in, etc) and sometimes are a bit less refined in the essentials - JeanLuc said iRiver players work fine in file explorer mode and that turning off DB mode means quicker boots but personally i find the concept of regularly booting a DAP ridiculous, and browsing music by filesystem view equally silly (what if i want to browse by genre?) The difference seems to come down to whether you want a gadget or a music player. Yaknow, each to their own.

I think that is a little bit of a simplified view of the situation. If you want something for a music player, the ui and extra features aren't the only things that make the difference. If I get something other than an Ipod I will probablt never even use the other featues, but will get it because of better build/sound quality (if I find it to be the case after testing for myself). Under this scenario a "gadget" may well be a better music player in the strictest sense: it plays music better. I don't think other players are "less refined in the essentials" if the music sounds better (isn't listening to music the point, not just finding it 5 seconds faster?)Whether that's true, remains to be see, or heard, as it were, by my ears.
Quick side note. Correct me if I'm wrong, technically but all DAPS boot up when they are turned on. All they really are are specialized computers, with software, which needs to boot up to make the DAP usable, just like any other computer. Searching by genre is useless for me because I find a lot of music I listen to is difficult to define, and I tend to not like to label them anyway . . . so i'd forget what I called the genre. Although I still admit that I'd prefer id3 browsing. But I don't think file tree it would be that hard to get used to.
Anyway, this isn't an attack of your ideas, just devil's advocate. I see all of your points, in some ways agree with a couple. I'm just bouncing out ideas to try to hash out which players really have what I want . . . through discussion.

one thing creative did right (i think) early on was to have a search function one their juke boxes just like a keyword search on a desktop player. Maybe it was too unwieldy.

The iPod generally only needs to boot if it crashes for some reason or the battery goes completely dead (both usually damn rare), otherwise it just goes into sleep/standby mode. You never really have to boot it. Same with my powerbook actually it's a fortnightly or monthly event for me.

To me file-tree browsing just personally seems like something that's easy to implement but also very lazy. File trees don't seem to be an optimum way to manage and provide access to large amounts of music (or photos, or databases) as they aren't particular to the metadata we commonly associate with audio media. Then you have issues with 255 char limits on pathnames on Windows systems etc etc. Different types of files are better managed with tools made for that purpose. It just seems like a square peg in a round hole situation, and i won't even go into issues related to tracking changes to and syncing massive folders of files to a DAP without the assistance of some sort of a database. That's from a usability perspective, i'm sure people have their reasons for wanting things just so, and if explorer.exe is your interface to all your music it's hardly surprising. A good implementation of a database (and I'm not saying Apple's is perfect, it's proprietary for one which is understandable but annoying for some) IMHO would beat out a filesystem based one in 90% of cases except maybe 64mb keychain mp3 players they give away that you can only store 8 songs on.

Re: your comments on sound quality, aside from the mini and it's underpowered amp i think most of the iPod line has been far above average quality, though i've heard some *really* cheap and nasty ones that made me cringe. (how hard can it be, mp3 -> PCM isn't exactly rocket science and i would have thought we'd have solid state amplification on that sort of scale pretty much nailed by now) Which is currently the king of sound quality? I think it was maybe the Karma last i read? The shuffle was getting some good reviews.

Anyway it comes down to one size will never fit all, that's why there's 3 models of iPod and about 4 other mainstream manufacturers outside of that.

If I had to replace my Rockboxed H140 (now a 160), I would be on Ebay looking for another H140. The Rockbox firmware and iSkin case make it unbeatable as a DAP.

I also affixed a rubber button on top of the control stick bad camera phone pic to make it easier to work.

edit: another feature of the iRiver that usually goes unmentioned is the optical in/out jacks. Very handy.

I stand corrected on the booting issue. Loophole, you bring up great points regarding the browsing system, and I would indeed prefer id3, but if the DAP I want doesn't have it . . .
Anyway, you're right. These discussions go on and on, and the bottom line is very few DAP's will meet ALL your needs, so you pick and choose.
I'd love to get a rockboxed H140 (and on to 160 soon after). but I don't know about getting an item such as a DAP (small, portable, expensive) on ebay . . . who knows how it was treated ???? I still might risk it. Sure am jealous of all you H140 owners out there!!

Right On Jebus!! After much searching, reading, investigating, I just bought my first DAP -- iAudio X5L 30GB. As is clearly pointed out in this thread, all players have strengths and weaknesses. I will cover the X5's shortly. I am now searching for a DAP for my wife. I am a geek, she is not. The exchange of ideas and opinions in a thread of this type is invaluable for someone trying to understand differences and make an informed decision.

X5L negatives:
-- the power connector, line in/out, and (normal -- no Host) USB connector are all provided on a separate "subpack" (small 1"x1.75" adapter) which connects to the bottom of the unit; cradle (with same connectors as the subpack) and remote not included with the unit;
-- id3 tag browsing is reportedly coming (but so is the end of the Bush administration);
-- the player does not correctly report (display) the length of OGG files but does play them without issue;
-- shuffle is not well implemented - I shuffled an 8 song playlist and the player never played all 8 songs before simply stopping; I do not yet know how it performs when shuffling through all music or some segment of the directory structure;
-- you have be sure the track number appears at the beginning of the song file names, otherwise they end up in a (album-specific) directory in alphabetical order (arghhh!);
-- I rip to FLAC for archival with EAC and currently transcode to Ogg Vorbis for the player using dBpowerAMP; I am looking for something better than the included JetAudio for playlist management;
-- navigation is performed using the small joy-stick mounted on the front of the unit, which protrudes above the surrounding surface about 1/32"; this is a potential design flaw as it raised durability concerns;
X5L positives:
-- 35 hour battery life (under optimum conditions) -- even if that is realistically only 30 hours it is tremendous (I don't have any data on this yet);
-- the sound quality is excellent, aided by the strong amplifier and abundant EQ option (I need a pair of good IEMs);
-- the folder tree view is reasonably intuitive and navigating relatively simple - I could pick it up and use it immediately, where the Gigabeat I tried left me confused and frustrated;
-- it's nice to have an FM tuner;
-- the ability to upload pictures directly from a camera would be a plus for vacation travel;
-- you can easily pick folders or individual tracks and add them to a (the single) dynamic playlist (folder), which is a convenient way to pick a couple hours of specific music to listen to;
-- DRM 10 support is available in the current beta firmware (important for me for subscription music to investigate new artists);
Miscellaneous:
-- gapless doesn't exist, but there is only a 1/4 second drop-out between tracks of a trance disc I ripped to Ogg Vorbis (q6);
-- I will probably never load a video file - it's all about the music;
-- I don't know how valuable text file viewing might be;

I picked the X5L based on long battery life, strong reviews on sound quality, and support for MP3/FLAC/OGG/WMA. An id3 tag database with browsing, gapless playback, and final implementation of DRM 10 support would make this a near-perfect DAP (mechanical design flaws aside).

Thanks for listening. Hope this is useful to anyone searching for their next DAP.

Assuming you could still find an H140 easily anymore. Well you could now but in 2 years probably not. I wouldn't really want to give up Rockbox either.

It seems the Rockbox project is making good progress on the iPod port. Once that's done all the Rockboxers and iPoders can join hands and live in harmony.

But until then !!!!

ignore this, it pays to read the entire post when responding.