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Hydrogenaudio Forums > Lossy Audio Compression > Ogg Vorbis > Ogg Vorbis - General

JohnV

Nov 19 2002, 20:30

I had a discussion with Emmett Plant (CEO of Xiph), and he really would like people to start using the correct naming when talking about Xiph's products..

I promised to push this here at HA.

So here goes:
Use "Vorbis" when you are talking about the Vorbis codec.
Use "Ogg" when you are talking about the container format.

Of course you can use "Ogg Vorbis" when you mean the Vorbis codec inside the ogg-container format.

The reason why people should use "Vorbis" instead of "Ogg" when talking about the Vorbis codec, is that there are now already 2 other codecs (FLAC and Speex) which can be used in Ogg container format, and more will follow.

Thank you.

dev0

Nov 19 2002, 21:35

Vorbis seems (outside of technical discussions) pretty pointless to me, because you'll probably never ever see a Vorbis (as oposed to Sppex or FLAC) stream outside Ogg. Ogg Vorbis and a little explanation (I just explained it to my ITGS class) do the job for me...

BTW: What will future oggencs look like? Or do we need to think about a new encoding structure?

dev0

Artemis3

Nov 19 2002, 21:40

But speex is inside ogg... its only renamed to spx

dev0

Nov 19 2002, 23:00

Okay... (I remember another case this caused a lot of trouble...)
Early verions weren't embedded into ogg though...

dev0

krsna77

Nov 20 2002, 00:21

QUOTE(JohnV @ Nov 19 2002 - 08:30 PM)

So here goes:
Use "Vorbis" when you are talking about the Vorbis codec.
Use "Ogg" when you are talking about the frame-format.

Good luck.

Normal people will continue to refer to the format based soley upon it's three letter extension - hence 'em-pee-three', 'pee-dee-ef', 'jay-peg'... hence 'ogg'.

'Ogg' is easy, 'ogg' matches the file extension, 'ogg' is what people will use.

"Dude, can you play OGGs?"

Technical details concerning the inner workings of the format, or the differences between a 'container format' and a 'codec' only interest geeks, not end users. Thus, hydrogenaudio junkies will certainly nitpick over the differences between 'ogg' and 'vorbis'. I guarantee most other people, however, will not.

Talk to laypeople about 'Sorenson Video 3' or 'MPEG-4', and you'll get blank stares. Simply mention 'Quicktime Movies', and some may know what you're talking about. It's just how things are.

Like it or not, it's all just called 'Ogg'.

To play out my 'Quicktime' analogy further, I predict that in the near future, when Ogg certainly gains mass public acceptance and hammers the competition, B) 'Ogg Tarkin' will simply be called 'Ogg Movies', and 'Ogg Vorbis', 'Ogg Flac', 'Ogg Speex', and whatnot, will collectively just be called the reciprocal 'Ogg Audio'.

Mark my words.

jmvalin

Nov 20 2002, 00:26

QUOTE(Artemis3 @ Nov 19 2002 - 10:40 PM)

But speex is inside ogg... its only renamed to spx

The Speex *files* use Ogg, but one of the main applications of Speex is VoIP, which uses "raw" Speex frames over RTP (no Ogg).

jcoalson

Nov 20 2002, 00:30

QUOTE(jmvalin @ Nov 20 2002 - 01:26 AM)

QUOTE(Artemis3 @ Nov 19 2002 - 10:40 PM)

But speex is inside ogg... its only renamed to spx

The Speex *files* use Ogg, but one of the main applications of Speex is VoIP, which uses "raw" Speex frames over RTP (no Ogg).

Same with FLAC, raw FLAC files are .flac, but Ogg FLAC files are named .ogg by default.

Josh

Nov 20 2002, 00:46

Seems to me that one aspect of all this which might encourage proper nomenclature would be hardware support. Specifically, we know that the Vorbis decoder library has been compiled as an integer decoder under the name of "Tremor," but that - at least in the current version - the decoder only supports Vorbis streams; it does not support Speex or FLAC. So the question, "Dude, can you play OGGs?" could then be answered in a manner which would encourage education among the masses: "I can play OGG Vorbis, but not OGG FLAC or OGG Speex."

Speaking of which, would there be any possibility of developing Tremor - or an appropriately named extension of the decoder - so that it could play OGG FLAC and OGG Speex? I can't speak for anyone else, but hardware support for a lossless format such as FLAC (or whatever other formats are incorporated into the frame-format) might be enough for me to begin transcoding a few thousand hours worth of old concerts from the "Shorten" format.

- M.

jmvalin

Nov 20 2002, 01:56

QUOTE(jcoalson @ Nov 20 2002 - 01:30 AM)

Same with FLAC, raw FLAC files are .flac, but Ogg FLAC files are named .ogg by default.

Not exactly, the .spx files are Ogg files. There's no raw file storage for Speex.

Jon Ingram

Nov 20 2002, 02:20

I call Vorbis "Vorbis", because I don't particularly care what container it's in.

Garf

Nov 20 2002, 02:20

Monty:

QUOTE

OK, since only about half of the mail we get is about the name 'Ogg Vorbis', it's clearly time to karma-whore a popular subject and open this can of worms one more time.
Our "The Name Sucks!"/"The name Rulez!" mail ratio is about 50/50. Some of you have threatened to kill us if we change the name, some of you have threatened to kill us if we don't. So you're gonna hear what I think about it. I'm not going to waste the opportunity my minor fame gives me for a healthy round of peer-mockery.

<tongue-in-cheek>
<neeneer-neener>
I Like The Name. I Wrote the Software. The Name Stays.
</neener-neener>

But there's more to this story than 'nyah nyah'. The 'rename Ogg!' forces have provided me with some of my favorite mail ever. I recall fondly the guy who went on, in great detail, why 'Ogg Vorbis' sucks, and that I must adopt 'a cutting edge, truly kick-ass name like "FreeMP3"!!!!!'

As for 'Ogg Vorbis', I hadn't really meant the 'Vorbis' part to get tacked on. The name of the format is Ogg. Just Ogg. Vorbis happens to be the first codec. Had 'Vorbis' been perhaps one more syllable (like, say 'Sorensen'), we wouldn't have this problem. People would just call it 'Ogg' like God (that's me) intended. Of course, particularly obsessive people *do* occasionally say 'QuickTime Sorensen', but they don't get invited to parties much, and when invited, they are shunned. 'Course they're usually just arguing with the punch bowl so shunning is easy.

I don't want my users to be shunned at parties, so I'm gonna help you out here. Just call it 'Ogg'. Ogg is a good, simple, very satisfying word.

It makes a good noun, a better verb and can even be used effectively in a curse. It is a real word and contains no numbers. It has only two unique characters, making it simpler than mp3. It is only one syllable, making it shorter to say than mp3. If you still can't handle it, try reboot-reinstall.
</tongue-in-cheek>

Monty
xiph.org

PatchWorKs

Nov 20 2002, 03:05

Well the solution (for Win users) could be a directshow filter that plays all kind of OGGs ?
In this way peoples just don't care about technical aspects, but (probably) they can understand that the format can contain not only the audio...

OT: Anyway, any infos about Theora ?

cd-rw.org

Nov 20 2002, 03:31

Ou Gee...Gee.

At the time Garf originally posted that mail, I whining here about the name of Oh Gee Gee Vorbis. And my opinion on this hasn't changed during this time. I still think that the name is not good and that it's a handicap for Ou Gee Gee marketing. "Vorbis" isn't much better - makes you sound like you are imitating frogs rather than talking about audio formats.

A catchy name can be a major benefit in marketing a product.

But Ogg is Ogg and Vorbis is Vorbis. Great pieces of work - keep it up.

David Nordin

Nov 20 2002, 03:33

Ogg Musepack.

JohnV

Nov 20 2002, 05:06

QUOTE(krsna77 @ Nov 20 2002 - 08:21 AM)

Thus, hydrogenaudio junkies will certainly nitpick over the differences between 'ogg' and 'vorbis'. I guarantee most other people, however, will not.

Well, I wouldn't necessary nitpick, but the initiative came from Emmett Plant. People also don't talk about avi-audio,MCF-audio, Quicktime-audio etc , when reffering to specific codec...
So maybe there's hope that people start talking using the correct names.. at least here.

jcoalson

Nov 20 2002, 13:48

QUOTE(M @ Nov 20 2002 - 01:46 AM)

Speaking of which, would there be any possibility of developing Tremor - or an appropriately named extension of the decoder - so that it could play OGG FLAC and OGG Speex? I can't speak for anyone else, but hardware support for a lossless format such as FLAC (or whatever other formats are incorporated into the frame-format) might be enough for me to begin transcoding a few thousand hours worth of old concerts from the "Shorten" format.

You might as well transcode to FLAC as it already has some hardware support (see the hardware links on the main FLAC page) and it will save you some space anyway. You could transcode to Ogg FLAC but support for that has not really taken off since the size is slightly larger than native FLAC.

Ogg FLAC has more potential in streaming or muxing with other codecs in a single Ogg container. There will likely be more development in this area in the coming months.

Josh

PatchWorKs

Nov 21 2002, 03:23

...er what about MCF ?

I think would be interesting if OGG and MCF teams will work together in the future...

Dibrom

Nov 21 2002, 04:53

QUOTE(PatchWorKs @ Nov 21 2002 - 02:23 AM)

...er what about MCF ?

I think would be interesting if OGG and MCF teams will work together in the future...

I seriously doubt this will happen any time soon, if ever..

From what I understand, there are some pretty deep seeded philosophical differences between the Xiph team and the MCF team which would prevent any sort of large scale cooperation.

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