My setup for creating MP3s for my Zen Vision M:
EAC with Accuraterip using LAME 3.97b2 V3 -- vbr new
I just bought my Zen and am just ripping all my CDs so I want to get it right before I start. I've read the recommended settings and discussion. I've found that V3 -- vbr new has worked very well for my Zen. I've noticed a few flaws here and there (maybe it's the so-called "sandpapery noise") but overall definately not enough to use the extra space for V2 -- vbr new. I'm wondering if it's worth going down to V4 -- vbr new? I know that I can test individual tracks on ABX, and I've found V4 fine for the few I've tested, but I was curious about large sample size overall impressions of V4 -- vbr new?
Are the flaws in V4 few enough that one can just go back and re-rip using V2 or V3? And does that help?
Thanks for any and all responses.
Full Version: LAME V3 vs. V4 for portable device
Um, well, it all depends on your experience of course.
For instance, take my experience. Some HA members expressed horror over my use of -q -0.5 (Ogg Vorbis setting) for my PDA, but I find them quite good enough... as long as I listen them on my way to/from work. It degrades audibly when I play them in the (relatively) silent environment of my workspace. I need to go up to at least -q 0 or even -q 1 there.
For instance, take my experience. Some HA members expressed horror over my use of -q -0.5 (Ogg Vorbis setting) for my PDA, but I find them quite good enough... as long as I listen them on my way to/from work. It degrades audibly when I play them in the (relatively) silent environment of my workspace. I need to go up to at least -q 0 or even -q 1 there.
LAME 3.97 beta 2 -V 5 --vbr-new does it for me on my Creative Zen NANO Plus.
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Are the flaws in V4 few enough that one can just go back and re-rip using V2 or V3? And does that help?
It's all a question how nitpicking you are and what the exact function is of your Zen music archive.
If you do it like me (but I don't think many people do so): to simplify my life I gave up using a lossless archive and encoding in parallel for productive purposes. With this in mind it's essential to try to get an extremely high quality within the few restrictions I have (letting the HD not spin up too often and generally taking a bit care of battery life of my DAP). Because of these quality demands I wouldn't use 3.97b2 even at -V2.
But if you have a lossless archive in your back you can take it a lot easier and use 3.97b2 at your -V settings under consideration. I personally would prefer 3.98a6 over 3.97b2 however with respect to the 'sandpaper-like' distortions you mentioned. The 3.98 alphas have improved a lot on these points.
Edited:
Just learnt about 3.97b3 that should resolve the issues mentioned.
I didn't try it yet, but it looks like this is the way to go.
QUOTE(glengarry @ Aug 22 2006, 01:39) 
Are the flaws in V4 few enough that one can just go back and re-rip using V2 or V3? And does that help?
It's all a question how nitpicking you are and what the exact function is of your Zen music archive.
If you do it like me (but I don't think many people do so): to simplify my life I gave up using a lossless archive and encoding in parallel for productive purposes. With this in mind it's essential to try to get an extremely high quality within the few restrictions I have (letting the HD not spin up too often and generally taking a bit care of battery life of my DAP). Because of these quality demands I wouldn't use 3.97b2 even at -V2.
But if you have a lossless archive in your back you can take it a lot easier and use 3.97b2 at your -V settings under consideration. I personally would prefer 3.98a6 over 3.97b2 however with respect to the 'sandpaper-like' distortions you mentioned. The 3.98 alphas have improved a lot on these points.
Edited:
Just learnt about 3.97b3 that should resolve the issues mentioned.
I didn't try it yet, but it looks like this is the way to go.
Personally, I wouln't touch V4 or V3 with modern LAME because -Y is forced at those vbr settings.
I would lower the lowpass frequency and use V2 instead if I were to use 3.97/3.98 or V5 (all --vbr-new).
As always.. If you want to know if V4 is good enough for your needs, ABX.
I would lower the lowpass frequency and use V2 instead if I were to use 3.97/3.98 or V5 (all --vbr-new).
As always.. If you want to know if V4 is good enough for your needs, ABX.
I use -V4 --vbr-new with 3.97b2, but I also use vorbis -q2 (since I could hear some artifacts with -q1 in some songs) sometimes for my portable.
QUOTE(gameplaya15143 @ Aug 24 2006, 18:57)
Personally, I wouln't touch V4 or V3 with modern LAME because -Y is forced at those vbr settings.
I would lower the lowpass frequency and use V2 instead if I were to use 3.97/3.98 or V5 (all --vbr-new).
As always.. If you want to know if V4 is good enough for your needs, ABX.
I would lower the lowpass frequency and use V2 instead if I were to use 3.97/3.98 or V5 (all --vbr-new).
As always.. If you want to know if V4 is good enough for your needs, ABX.
Good advice here, as ABX-ing. I actually use -V3 or -V4 (--vbr-new) for msot of my mp3 encoding, because I've not found that I'm able to hear about 16khz so for my listening it doesn't matter that the -Y switch is implemented below -V2.
I'm curious why you'd recommend -V2 plus a lowpass instead of the -Y switch.
in case V3 vs V4 for portable device, I think ABX is not pretty useful. In this case it simply demands on your sound experience. If you hear some "flaws", it could be the blame of your ZEN. Mostly, differences between -V 3 and -V 2 are marginal.
My advice for portable players: Lame 3.97b3 with -V 4 --vbr-new (still good quality and profitable filesizes). Large filesizes are RARE in this setting. If there ARE too large filesizes, then use ABR (--abr 128 for example...)
Using Lame in low bitrates (70-100 kbps) is not recomended, because Lame is optimized for higher bitrates (>=128 kbps)
you could also switch to CBR... profits of CBR are: more compatible to features of portable players (for example saving battery-energy, correct display of track-time etc), but I think your ZEN is also very compatible to VBR and ABR, but all filesizes are predictable. If you use CBR in low bitrates (<128), then use optimized Codecs for low bitrates (for example FHG/MP3pro/Helix<-- Just my recommendation)
Disadvantages: lower quality... VBR offers you good quality in (mostly) small filesizes
using --lowpass XXX instead of -Y in -V 2 is useless. -Y clearly reduces the bitrate by only deleting high frequencies which a normal person wouldn't hear anymore (which are almost all over 16 KHZ, --lowpass 16 for example deletes ALL frequencies over 16 KHZ, some normal persons could notice this. And --lowpass 16 doesn't reduce the bitrate as -Y)
My advice for portable players: Lame 3.97b3 with -V 4 --vbr-new (still good quality and profitable filesizes). Large filesizes are RARE in this setting. If there ARE too large filesizes, then use ABR (--abr 128 for example...)
Using Lame in low bitrates (70-100 kbps) is not recomended, because Lame is optimized for higher bitrates (>=128 kbps)
you could also switch to CBR... profits of CBR are: more compatible to features of portable players (for example saving battery-energy, correct display of track-time etc), but I think your ZEN is also very compatible to VBR and ABR, but all filesizes are predictable. If you use CBR in low bitrates (<128), then use optimized Codecs for low bitrates (for example FHG/MP3pro/Helix<-- Just my recommendation)
Disadvantages: lower quality... VBR offers you good quality in (mostly) small filesizes
QUOTE
Personally, I wouln't touch V4 or V3 with modern LAME because -Y is forced at those vbr settings.
I would lower the lowpass frequency and use V2 instead if I were to use 3.97/3.98 or V5 (all --vbr-new).
I would lower the lowpass frequency and use V2 instead if I were to use 3.97/3.98 or V5 (all --vbr-new).
using --lowpass XXX instead of -Y in -V 2 is useless. -Y clearly reduces the bitrate by only deleting high frequencies which a normal person wouldn't hear anymore (which are almost all over 16 KHZ, --lowpass 16 for example deletes ALL frequencies over 16 KHZ, some normal persons could notice this. And --lowpass 16 doesn't reduce the bitrate as -Y)
QUOTE(glengarry @ Aug 21 2006, 20:39)
I've noticed a few flaws here and there (maybe it's the so-called "sandpapery noise") but overall definately not enough to use the extra space for V2 -- vbr new.
Try the Mp3 gain sometimes the "sandpapery noise" are clipings,I noticied some "sandpapery noise" after encoding and after decrease 1,5 db or 3 db avoiding clipings that "sandpapery noise" or partially of it was gone....
EDIT:OPS make my reply part of quote...
QUOTE(gameplaya15143 @ Aug 25 2006, 09:57)
Personally, I wouln't touch V4 or V3 with modern LAME because -Y is forced at those vbr settings.
I would lower the lowpass frequency and use V2 instead if I were to use 3.97/3.98 or V5 (all --vbr-new).
As always.. If you want to know if V4 is good enough for your needs, ABX.
Quite frankly, your posts are starting to annoy me and are wasting other peoples time. You seem to be playing it carefully enough not to get banned - yet there are clear indirect quality statements in many of your posts. I cannot find any evidence of -Y inferiority as you don't provide abx results. Also your mp3 commandline lines here and on your website are rubbish and offer no advantages over the normal presets according to a short listening test I performed - they were inferior. I am more than willing to post samples to show this.
QUOTE
QUOTE(gameplaya15143 @ Aug 25 2006, 09:57)
Personally, I wouln't touch V4 or V3 with modern LAME because -Y is forced at those vbr settings.
I would lower the lowpass frequency and use V2 instead if I were to use 3.97/3.98 or V5 (all --vbr-new).
As always.. If you want to know if V4 is good enough for your needs, ABX.
Quite frankly, your posts are starting to annoy me and are wasting other peoples time. You seem to be playing it carefully enough not to get banned - yet there are clear indirect quality statements in many of your posts. I cannot find any evidence of -Y inferiority as you don't provide abx results. Also your mp3 commandline lines here and on your website are rubbish and offer no advantages over the normal presets according to a short listening test I performed - they were inferior. I am more than willing to post samples to show this.
Personally, I wouln't touch V4 or V3 with modern LAME because -Y is forced at those vbr settings.
I would lower the lowpass frequency and use V2 instead if I were to use 3.97/3.98 or V5 (all --vbr-new).
As always.. If you want to know if V4 is good enough for your needs, ABX.
Quite frankly, your posts are starting to annoy me and are wasting other peoples time. You seem to be playing it carefully enough not to get banned - yet there are clear indirect quality statements in many of your posts. I cannot find any evidence of -Y inferiority as you don't provide abx results. Also your mp3 commandline lines here and on your website are rubbish and offer no advantages over the normal presets according to a short listening test I performed - they were inferior. I am more than willing to post samples to show this.
yes, I have the same opinion
QUOTE(shadowking @ Aug 26 2006, 05:38)
Quite frankly, your posts are starting to annoy me and are wasting other peoples time. You seem to be playing it carefully enough not to get banned - yet there are clear indirect quality statements in many of your posts. I cannot find any evidence of -Y inferiority as you don't provide abx results. Also your mp3 commandline lines here and on your website are rubbish and offer no advantages over the normal presets according to a short listening test I performed - they were inferior. I am more than willing to post samples to show this.
From http://www.geocities.com/gameplaya15143/:03/07/06-
For mp3 encoding I highly recomend LAME v3.93.1 (the last good version in my opinion).
Near transparent: -q 5 -V 9 --resample 44 --nspsytune [-Z] -k
Middle area: -q 5 -V 9 --resample 44 --nspsytune [-Z] --lowpass 18.5 (adjust lowpass as desired)
Low bitrate: -q 5 -V 9 --resample 44 --nspsytune [-Z] --ns-sfb21 5 -k (good for keeping loud high frequency harmonics)
Low bitrate: -q 5 -V 9 --resample 44 --nspsytune [-Z] -Y -k (slightly lower bitrate than above^ in cases with loud high frequencies, but lower quality)
Low bitrage: -q 5 -V 9 --resample 44 --nspsytune [-Z] --lowpass 16 (safer than the above^ 2 options)
(note: -Z is optional, might increase quality but also increases the bitrate slightly)
(note: increase the -V setting untill you are satisfied with the results)
(note: I should really update my codec comparison page)
Ha ha ha ha ha!
What is amazing is that I recorded 30gb of music on my Zen at vbr -3 new. To my ears, the sound was perfect. Then, for the heck of it, I did some ABX with vbr -6 new. This would give me smaller files to fit more music on my Zen. What amazed me was I couldn't tell the difference using vbr- 6 against the original. In fact, switching back and forth I didn't even do the test because it seemed exact to me. I must not have good ears, because even vbr -6 is excellent sound. I'm listening to classical, pop, and everything. My Zen sounds excellent at the vbr -6 new setting and I'm putting more music on it. I think people should give vbr -6 new a try if they have a 30gb hd player.
QUOTE(DARcode @ Aug 26 2006, 14:37)
QUOTE(shadowking @ Aug 26 2006, 05:38)
Quite frankly, your posts are starting to annoy me and are wasting other peoples time. You seem to be playing it carefully enough not to get banned - yet there are clear indirect quality statements in many of your posts. I cannot find any evidence of -Y inferiority as you don't provide abx results. Also your mp3 commandline lines here and on your website are rubbish and offer no advantages over the normal presets according to a short listening test I performed - they were inferior. I am more than willing to post samples to show this.
From http://www.geocities.com/gameplaya15143/:03/07/06-
For mp3 encoding I highly recomend LAME v3.93.1 (the last good version in my opinion).
Near transparent: -q 5 -V 9 --resample 44 --nspsytune [-Z] -k
Middle area: -q 5 -V 9 --resample 44 --nspsytune [-Z] --lowpass 18.5 (adjust lowpass as desired)
Low bitrate: -q 5 -V 9 --resample 44 --nspsytune [-Z] --ns-sfb21 5 -k (good for keeping loud high frequency harmonics)
Low bitrate: -q 5 -V 9 --resample 44 --nspsytune [-Z] -Y -k (slightly lower bitrate than above^ in cases with loud high frequencies, but lower quality)
Low bitrage: -q 5 -V 9 --resample 44 --nspsytune [-Z] --lowpass 16 (safer than the above^ 2 options)
(note: -Z is optional, might increase quality but also increases the bitrate slightly)
(note: increase the -V setting untill you are satisfied with the results)
(note: I should really update my codec comparison page)
Ha ha ha ha ha!
Why -q 5 instead of -q2 or -q3?
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