For me the iPod wins on

- Thickness and weight which is a real 'pocket full' with the Zen (the 60GB Zen DOES seem a bit of a brick, just a bit too big. 60GB in the 30G case would be perfect and still thicker than the 80GB iPod)
- Ecosystem (3rd party support with spares, add-ons, etc). Eg. I have a 20GB NJB3 and when it came to replace the batteries, they're no longer available except from rip-off merchants on e-bay). I'd expect there to be people offering iPod battery replacements/service at good prices for years.

Zen wins on

- Price
- Seems better built
- (rear) scratch resistance
- Hardware. I actually prefer the buttons and slider area to the iPod's even more (too) sensitive scroll wheel

I'm not especially interested in

- Video
- Recording
- Games
- Radio
- Photos

The Vision:M is supposed to be due for a refresh, but if there is one it certainly seems to have missed CES. So maybe if I get a Vision, it'll be replaced by something a lot better quickly (Post Purchase Trauma). But I suppose if it does the job...

So for me it's a draw on these issues BUT what about sound quality? The CURRENT 5G iPod with current software is supposed to be good now, isn't it? I do expect to be using Shure e4c earphones with it, so I might well hear stuff that's bad... Is the Vision that much better? Anyone got first hand experience of the sound quality differences comparing a CURRENT iPod and Vision:M?

You *might* not care about that, but ipod offers gapless playback - for me that makes a huge difference. Nothing is more unnerving that having your music silenced for a moment.
As for the ipod sound quality - I encode in Lame VBR 3 new and am very happy with the result. And remember that as for the external speakers playback, you can attach a line out via the dock connector.
IH

For me, it's all about Rockbox portability. The additional sound/EQ options and filetype support alone make it worth using IMHO. They are making progress with the 5.5G 80GB iPod (already works on 30GB), and it's still in the idea phase for Creative Zen. Advantage: iPod.

As far as sound quality goes, I am sure most people will tell you that the Zen is better but the iPod will suffice. I have a 60GB 5G iPod that I purchased over the 30GB Zen Vision: M. I went with the iPod because of 3rd party and 1st party accessory support, you get more GB per dollar spent with the iPod (even now), the iTunes store offered video downloads as well as an assortment of music, and my car CD deck supports a direct iPod connection via USB while all other mp3 players must use the line-in port.

As far as the scroll wheel goes, I don't think it is too sensitive at all. I have easily been able to scroll down to my artist of choice in a matter of seconds without overshooting.

I'm erring towards the iPod for the reasons stated above. Most of my music was encoded with LAME's "alt preset standard".

I'm using e4c earphones. What should I expect to be hearing (or not hearing) as the 'inferior iPod sound quality'. Key seems to be someone who's actually heard the difference between a 5.5 iPod with latest firmware and the Vision:m, presumably also with latest firmware.

I have a NJB3/20GB. For the first time (now with e4c's) I can hear background hiss with no music playing!

kornchild2002> As far as sound quality goes, I am sure most people will tell you that the Zen is better but the iPod will suffice.

So... (apart from more/less hiss, and I've no idea how the Vision would compare with the NJB3) does the iPod distort more, sound harsher, less bassey, or what, with the same earphones? I notice the e4c's have roughly the same impedence as the stock iPod earphones, so it should be able to drive them ok?!

Some earphones (and speakers) of equal impedance require more power to drive them to equal perceived levels of loudness and to keep the drivers moving over their entire range during complex passages.

Low powered amps with power hungry earphones are a bad combination, and the sound can be thin because the amp in the portable has trouble producing enough power to repeatedly move the driver long distances during fast rising transients.

I suspect that this is the source of many of the complaints against the iPod sound - other manufacturers have more muscular amps in their portables. or drive the same amps harder (with more distortion, heat, hiss, etc)

I have no idea hows the e4c's stack up against the standard headphones in this regard.

How do you like e4c's? Are they comfortable?

I've replaced e2c's with them, so I'm ok with the comfort issue. Still 'running-in' the e4c's, but so far I've no regrets. But I'm also seriously considering replacing the NJB3 20GB, wanting something smaller and with, >30GB capacity. Hence my original question.



I don't want to mess about with a separate headphone amp, but want to get the most out of the e4c's. I don't really want noticbly inferior quality to the NJB3 if I can help it, and want to know what I'm really compromising sound-wise if I get an 5.5G iPOD over the Vision:M.



As the e4c's are bought by people who care about what they hear, maybe I'll ask a different question (new thread)...

As with everything the sound quality difference is only there if YOU can hear it. Just because someone else says there is a difference or the specs read like one is better than the other doesn't mean you'll be able to tell

I have Westone UM-2s and custom molds with my nano running rockbox and couldn't be happier.

I agree, but not having the opportunity to do long comparative tests myself, I'm looking for informed opinion to influence me. The two players I'm considering cost about the same. Maybe in reality they sound about the same too driving the e4c's so my decision should NOT be based on their relative sound quality after all...

With Zen you can customize EQ settings - you can't do this with an iPod. This was the dealbreaker for me: got the Zen and recommend it to anyone looking for solid music player packed with features that ipod does not have (or you have to pay extra to get them - eg. FM tuner)
I still buy CDs and rip them to the player - do not use and do not plan to use iTunes. I might try one of the subscription services one day though.