Just wanna see which is the default browsers by most people!

There's no Netscape here as it's also Mozilla!
So many more like Neoplanet is using IE to browse.....
So there's only 3 options here!

I don't understand, people are always been complaining about how buggy MS operating systems are & always upgrading processors, ram for more speed so why the hell would you add more dll's to your computer when you already have a pre-installed browser the works fine?

Mozilla is ready for real day to day use. Give it a try.

Because the pre-installed browser sucks.

http://www.xulplanet.com/ndeakin/arts/reasons.html
http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/css/edge/comp...piral/demo.html
http://www.[insert xxx/warez site with lots of popups].com
http://mywebpage.netscape.com/aufbau01/features.html
http://www.mozilla.org/projects/phoenix

Way more than reason enough to use Mozilla or a variant.

IE6 can't even render this site properly: http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/

and you say it works fine?

Phoenix!
http://www.mozilla.org/projects/phoenix/

But out of those three, Mozilla is the best.

http://www.pivx.com/larholm/unpatched/

I won't vote because I believe all browsers have good points and bad points.

I won't bash IE , although I do have it blocked TCP/UDP using my firewall, there's just too many things that can be exploited in it, and I'm tired of reinstalling Win98 every few months - and by blocking it I can actually wait for the piece of shit Win98 to die on its own versus some nasty ass virus code that comes through IE to be introduced into the system via the shell or other methods.

I do however use Opera but its super strict compliance with standards causes some headaches with non-compliant web-sites which IE, Mozilla/Netscape will load with no noticable problems.

I use Opera on my computer, and I have Phoenix on a shared drive for use around campus.

I have found Opera to really live up to its claim as the fastest browser - mostly due to intelligent caching. It also has all of the other options that I like: tabbing, mouse gestures, quick enabling/disabling of common preferences (including blocking pop-up windows), etc. It is very good with stability (unless you try to open too many tabs), and recovers well from crashes. The only problem that I have had with it is a problem with video corruption, usually only when the system is low on resources.

I would try to just uninstall IE from my computer if it weren't for the sites that are broken, in that they don't work right on Opera or any Mozilla derivitive.

Opera 6 for me. I love it so much I actually leave the banner there "to be fair".

Good thing this board no longer uses vBulletin, because that doesn't at all display correctly in Opera.

I also like Mozilla very much and used to use it a lot, but it hogs my system resources (haven't tried Phoenix yet which is said to be a lot beter in that regard). While Opera warns me that the system is low on resources if I try to open another tab on top of, say, 25 others, Mozilla just crashes my system. (It would happen at least once per day when loading all new HA threads in order to read them offline. )

I use Phoenix with Tabbrowser Extensions and Mouse Gestures.
I think Sylera is also a good Gecko-based tabbrowser btw.

IIRC opera has no strict adhearance to any standards. What standards it supports and the parts of the standard supported are verry hit and miss. CSS for instance. I think Opera is the worst of the current browsers on the market for CSS support AFAIK. I have seen text mode only browsers that had better CSS support than Opera. When it comes to standards, when it comes to compliance I dare say Mozilla outshines them all. Java script was born and raised in Netscape and perfected in Mozilla. Mozilla renders pretty much all HTML flawlessly. AFAIK there is only the line wrap issue and malformed Internet Explorer URLs that it can not handle(ie http://somesite.com\page.html frontpage generates these on purpose alot to freak non MS browsers). Mozilla also has one of the most complete CSS implementations of any browser. Not to mention better support for current web standards like XML, PNG, MNG, etc than any other browser. It supports mouse guestures and tabbed browsing like Opera. Plus the possibility for one click configuration of pop-up blocking and many other usefull settings. All that leaves is Mozilla's speed. It's no slouch but Opera wins a bit. But that is why there is phoenix to run rings around em all. I can't think of a single thing that Opera can do better than a Mozilla derivative to be quite honest. Even Internet Explorer is left lacking in comparrison to Mozilla in all areas except proprietary Microsoft extensions of course .

Ohaiyo


On my desktop I use straight Mozilla. But I have a ZIP disk I take with me that has just that phoenix setup. It kicks serious arse!



Interesting. I had not noticed that varriation. I still think I would pick Phoenix over it. But then that is the nice thing about Mozilla. There is a version for everyone and their grandmother. And that one looks to be the in one for the Japanese uber geek teens.

BTW I love that guys page. He uses the same CSS trick I have been using on my site for some time now. To bad the guys using IE and opera can't view his site or mine propperly. Damn broken browsers!

Good reasons, I'll try Mozilla.

COOL, how you find this out, Opera, Netscape, Mozilla, OK
IE something wrong, this is the first mistake in IE for me

I have used Opera as my primary browser since version 4. Faster than any other browser (expect Lynx) on my low end PC.

This is the only page I've ever seen where it is obvious that IE is not displaying it correctly.

Also, the one simple (maybe even trivial) thing that is keeping me from switching to Mozilla/Phoenix is the Bookmark Manager. It's a nightmare. I won't be switching until right-click "Sort By Name" is implemented. And I hate that when you do finally manage to get things sorted alphabetically it sorts upper case separatley from lower case (ABC...XYZabc...xyz). Of course this is technically the correct way to alphabetize, but from an ease-of-use standpoint, it's stupid.

Rob

Agreed...

I can point out many many more that IE does not like and many standard HTML and CSS statements that IE and opera screw up badly.



Yep that is pretty trivial. I find that once I group my bookmarks alpabetization is not that usefull. In fact I find it more advantageous to have bookmarks I access more often closer.

Trust me. Once you familliarise yourself will Mozilla and it's relatives you will not go back to IE without a major fight.

I can't vote, this topic's called favourite browsers but the poll requires me to choose one, i have no favourite. I use mainly Phoenix which uses the Mozilla ENGINE. "Mozilla" is not a browser, it's the engine, the mozilla navigator is another thing..
And i use Internet Explorer, because well, some sites just don't show up correctly with Phoenix or other Mozilla based browsers. Same thing happens the opposite yeah, but much less than the first that's for sure...And about Opera, well i hate it, don't care that it's blazing fast (pfff), it's just basically bad compared to the Mozilla engine and IE.
Don't feel like bringing examples where IE succeeds and Phoenix fails, so i'll bring one i can think of right now. Zetrix (cool 3D tetris clone game) highscores

They are two different things yet they are the same. So they are not so different after all. You seemed to miss the point behind the choices for the poll. Mozilla does not reffer strictly to the Mozilla browser. Just as IE does not reffer strictly to Internet Explorer. Simply said each of those choices reffer to those browsers and all derivatives.of them. Would it have been less confusing if the choices were IE, Mozilla, Neoplanet, Galleon, Kmellon, AOL-Browser, Lynx, Netscape, Opera, Phoenix, etc etc etc. Mostly different words for the same thing. I have noticed however that the KDE HTML rendering engine has been left out of the poll. It is after all an engine as well. Apple is using it in Safari.



Problem 1. The HTML code for the highscores page displays correctly under Mozilla but incorrectly under Internet Explorer. The guy has either accidentally or purposefully screwed up the HTML to favor a flaw in Internet Explorer. Even though internet explorer seems as if it renders the page layout propperly it is in fact broken. And even though Mozilla seems to break the layout it is in fact displaying the layout propperly. The layout and underlying HTML code itself is foo-bared.

Problem 2. It appears as if his java script is screwed as well.

I am no java script expert so I could be wrong on the second one. But I do know my HTML and he definatly screwd that up.

I'm sure there are many, and I'm sure I've run across them, but it may not always be obvious or apparent that the page is being displayed incorrectly. As long as I can read the page and get whateve info I'm looking for, it's fine.



I do have my hundreds of IE bookmarks grouped in folders, but some of those folders still have 20 or 30 or 40 bookmarks in them and they need to be alphabetized. I downloaded Phoenix last night to see how it had progressed. I used the Bookmark Manager to alphabetize a couple of folders and when I closed it and returned to the browser, it was showing all the bookmarks in those folders in reverse alpha order.



Actually, I just finished using Mozilla as my default browser for about 3 months and the bookmark thing, the email client and a few other usability issues drove me crazy and I switched back to IE and Outlook 2000.

Rob

Neo Neko, ok i understand your point. Only, the different thing is that some browsers simply "hijack" IE, but with Mozilla it's different, browsers use the engine. It happened to me several times that the Mozilla Navigator displayed pages differently than Phoenix, so here the browser itself is to blame. Anyway, i still can't choose one since i use two .

About that highscores page, heh trust me he didn't do it on purpose .. I know the guy a little, he's anything but a sicko that does such things (nice guy by the way), he just maintains the webpage/s, not the developer of the game, though he was the one who suggested some different unique game modes for Zetrix and made some graphics and Vesa (the developer) implementer them into the game.
So..ok the code is screwed up in this case. Though i must say it seems IE displays the page well, i don't see anything wrong, maybe indeed IE displays many pages better than Mozilla browsers because it handles bad code better..and i do know tons of sites have crappy HTML, JAVA, CSS and what not.

Can someone post a screenshot of Phoenix and Mozilla.

http://audio.web1000.com/pheonix.htm
It should be "phoenix" but i won't change it because i linked to it a long time ago in another thread here

<nitpick>"Mozilla" is not the engine - the engine is called "Gecko".</nitpick>

rocketsauce: Thanks for pointing out the bookmark problem in Phoenix. It was driving me nuts when I used Mozilla, so bad that it's enough reason for me not to try out Phoenix after all (until those issues are resolved).

SK1: The link doesn't work for me... I get "Web1000 is the Industry Leader", and a table full of links to some ad partners.

Oh man this is strange, anyone else has this problem?? It just can't be!! It's most definately a correct link. Anyone, tell me it works .

No problem. I've searched various Mozilla sites/forums to see if there's any mention of that issue being addressed, but it appears that it's not a priority. I guess when the l337 people are surfing the net, they type urls in the address bar instead of using bookmarks. I've tried finding alternatives to MS, but I just haven't been able to find anything I like better than IE and Outlook (not Outlook Express).

Rob

I never keep links in "bookmarks" , i just create shortcuts.
And i'm gonna add many of the links to an HTML page i'm making and will include in my future website.

Yeah, same here. I always manualy sort my bmarks. But I think this issue can be easily sorted out without even altering executable itself. I bet there's already some string you can put in user.js to make it work the way you want, or maybe not (yet).

Well, it works with Phoenix, not with IE (for me).
So here's my scrnshot (lil' bit vivid, I know). I just mindlessly crossed two themes, without editing all those css's. As a result statusbar is screwed and some dialogs as well. Such semi-solution, but I just needed that flat look immediately, because I'm slowly getting sick with MS innovations in ergonomical design, mostly with those past pseudo-3d grey thingies (but still not as much as with default XP theme).

for GUI i prefer using Phoenix, although for some strange reason won't load in win98 so I use Opera, mainly because it's fast and that's very important to me because my computer is pretty old.
for CLI I prefer using lynx, otherwise I'll use links

Favorite is IE. I'm a big Mozilla and Opera fan, but in the end the stability of IE and the consistently good rendering sealed it. I assume a lot of the rendering issues are related to "IE optimized" (non-compliant?) sites, but those sites are the ones I visit.

I expect that Moz and Op will eventually render/be stable well enough for me to switch. Difficult putting my vote for IE as I respect the innovations of both Moz and Op and want to encourage their development.

<<EDIT: *&%$ popups in IE may be the final deciding factor. I know, I can add software to block them, but I just don't want the messy code. Moz/Op handle popups so much better. >>

That's very strange, it works with IE for me as well...

Have you used Mozilla recently? It's definitely more stable and renders stuffs better than IE.

Except, of course for those pages that use evil code optimized for IE.

The top ten usability problems in Mozilla

Rob

I use a mixture, but tend to rely on KMeleon a lot now, its light and does what I want.

Most of that is fixed in Phoenix.

Tried Phoenix, looks nice but is way slower on my pc than IE6...
I mean, IE6 opens sites three times as fast as Phoenix.

Yes, I would imagine that a lot of the more "technical" things mentioned at that link have been addressed, but basic, everyday usability issues (like being able to add/delete/move toolbars and toolbar buttons, for example. And don't even get me started on the email client) are still a problem. I've tried pretty much every browser and email client out there and I always end up back at IE and Outlook. The only feature that Mozilla has that I would like to see in IE is tabbed browsing.

Rob

You can do those in Phoenix too.

Don't tell me popups don't annoy you?

http://www.popupcop.com works better than the popup stoppers built-in to Mozilla/Phoenix. B)

I have problems using phoenix

If I "Quote" in IE it will be like this



But if I use Phoenix, it turn out ....



Any solutions?

rocketsauce:
Phoenix has better popup handling than Mozilla (mainly with per-site management), and can do all that popupcap can do, without the need for an extra service/overhead and $30.

kotrtim:
Don't quite get what you mean with your quoting problem. For me I click the QUOTE button twice and the first time i get a (QUOTE) and the second time i get the (/QUOTE). Well actually I don't click on the button to quote, I just type the tag in myself.

rocketsauce:



Why don't you try one of the many free browsers which use IE engine, like MyIE2 (which I'm currently using): they have a lot of useful options, like tabbed browsing, popup filtering, skinning, open more sites at once etc...

I use Phoenix in win32, which uses the Gecko engine. Also Mozilla, so picked up Mozilla.

My, my, isn't it Limo up there?

101 things that the Mozilla browser can do that IE cannot.

IE not only is bad, it is dangerous. Backdoors and exploits galore, just like all MS products.

Well, I can't imagine that it uses that much extra overhead...I don't notice any difference on my system anyway. And since about 90% of the software I use is freeware anyway, I don't mind paying for something once in awhile.



I tried it last week for a few days. It was ok...I guess. At the moment I can't really remember what I didn't like about it.



Well, not being that technically minded, I don't really know what most of that stuff is about , but I can't really see that it has much of an effect on just basic day to day web browsing.



Sure, there are lots of things that could happen, but I could be hit by a car walking across the street to the store. I have been using Windows/IE/Outlook for about 10 years and have never once been infected with a virus, or even received one of the notorious email viruses. Maybe I've just been lucky.

Anyway, just for the record, I am playing a little of the devil's advocate here. I do understand the basic concepts of why I might want/should use alternatives to MS. However, based on my experience so far, the alternatives are lacking in various ways. Also, in my mind, I have a two-fold problem. It doesn't make sense to me to ditch IE and still use Outlook, so if someone has a suggestion for an email client that is not Eudora, The Bat!, Pegasus, Poco, etc, I'd love to hear it.*

And, just for the record, I used Mozilla as my default browser/email for about 3 months just recently and I also downloaded Phoenix a couple of weeks ago and used it for about a week, but I'll try it again right now. B)

Rob


*The main feature that I'm looking for is the ability to only create one set of mailboxes for multiple email addresses the way you can in Outlook/Outlook Express. Oh, and integrated calendar/tasks.

I use Netscape 7.01 (based on Mozilla 1.0.2) on both Windows 2000 and Linux. I know people have told me to get the latest Mozilla (1.2.1 and 1.3b) but the thing they don't realise is that the latest 1.x builds focus more on adding more features. But the standard 1.0 trunk is proven to be rock-solid and stable and may have less bugs than the new untested features of 1.2.1, which is the primary reason why Netscape chooses this trunk for its products.

Also Netscape included the popup manager that disappeared in Mozilla 1.2.1

As for IE, well funny enough, I used to be an IE user back in the IE3 and IE4 days. IE3 was light and nice, but IE4 was terrible. So I decided to download Netscape Communicator 4.06 and it was a permanent defection since then. I still occassionaly use IE (for windowsupdate) but the fortnightly security patches leave much to be asked about its security. IE turns out to be less stable than Mozilla nowadays. It's also starting to lose to Mozilla in the HTML loading speed too.

I guess there aren't Mac users here to justify including Safari in the list. LOL. Its KHTML engine (used in Konqueror) was benchmarked faster than the fastest Mozilla-based browser, Chimera, on the Mac. I would assume Phoenix to be the closest twin of Chimera. But KHTML is far from perfect either when rendering pages.

EDIT: Oh yeah, thanks for all the links to the pages where IE stumbles over. This is perfect stuff on my quest to convince my friends to quit IE and start using Mozilla.

there is one page I found (doesnt work anymore) where you put a floppy disk in your drive, go to the page in IE, and it actually formats the floppy without even asking you.

I'll never use the Mozilla browser again, just Phoenix or something as good (k-meleon, etc.), a year ago i never thought i'd say this but the mozilla browser got too damn bloated for my taste, not to talk about awful Netscape. Also, Phoenix has many improvements over it and will just get lighter and lighter. (it has a popup blocker by the way and will always have it)

Well, just a follow-up. After this thread died down a little I went and downloaded Phoenix and Mozilla again, just to give them a fair try. As much as I hate to admit it, I think I might be off IE for good.

Mozilla had to go right away, mostly because of the lack of a real pop-blocker in the current version. IIRC, you can either tell it to block all pop-ups or none. Unfortunatley there are a few sites I go to almost daily that require pop-ups to work correctly.

I then installed the 0.5 milestone of Phoenix and started using it. I came across a few sites that wouldn't load and posted on the Phoenix Forums about it and someone suggested using the 0.5 12-28-2002 nightly which solved those problems. Also, the 0.5 milestone still uses the hideous Orbit theme as it's defaut, but the 12-28-2002 nightly uses Qute as the new default, which IMO is a vast improvement. I had been using Phoenix for about a week, getting the toolbars setup, installed Tabbed Browser Extensions (a must have plugin for any Mozilla-based browser). I was surprised that I really liked it and was pretty much thinking I would keep using it instead of IE.

I also spent a lot of time reading at Phoenix Forums, which is where I came across a couple of threads posted by SillyDog701 about Netscape 7.01 Streamline. I checked out the links and thought I might as well give this a try too. I downloaded Netscape 7.01 Standalone, only about a 10mb download (Streamline includes the mail client, Standalone doesn't) and installed it. Now, the most shocking thing, is that after almost two weeks of switching back and forth between the two, I think I prefer NS7.01 to Phoenix. This, despite the fact that you can't really customize NS at all, while the possibilites with Phoenix are almost endless (esp. if you know how to edit some it's .js and .css files), both of the default NS themes (Modern and Classic) are just as hideous looking as Orbit, and you still pretty much have to sort bookmarks manually.

I guess what ultimately sways me is that NS7.01 just "feels" more solid. I know Phoenix is still a work in progress, but some of it's features are a little "hackish" in the way they are implemented. I haven't really had any crashes using NS7.01, not that I was having a lot with Phoenix, but none is better than some. They both have pop-up blocker, cookie blocker, password manager, forms manager, but in NS these tools are just better implemented and more accessible. I also haven't come across any pages that wouldn't load. Overall, I really like using it.

So, anyway, I just thought some of you who were preaching the Mozilla Gospel would like to know that it worked...not completely, though, since I'm still using Outlook 2000.

Rob

I use Crazy Browser (runs on the IE engine). For a month or so I switched from IE6 to Mozilla 1.0, then Mozilla 1.1, and then switched to CB. It's great; I never even think about the browser's interface, it just stays out of the way. Popup blocking works great, tab handling is better than Mozilla... it loads almost instantly, and it practically never crashes. Mozilla constantly crashed on my computer, and it was always hounding my mother with upgrade warnings and b0rked profiles and messed-up mail clients. Good riddance.

I just love it when people make these rediculously complicated CSS pages with the sole intention of showing how "crappy" IE is compared to Mozilla (or some variant). For me, none of the sites I ever visit give me problems. If they do, then I'll switch to a browser that renders properly. Until then, IE renders fine for me.

But because everyone here seems to be a Phoenix nut, I'll go download it and see what all the fuss is about.