Thank you for fast reply and organization of test that never conducted.
Never mind.
Full Version: MP3 Listening Test at 128 kbps
QUOTE
Thank you for fast reply and organization of test that never conducted.
Never mind.
Even if I too deplore this thread and any public HA listening test was entirely becalmed, there's no need to get this bitter. Nobody stops you from organizing one of your own, in all its complexities, after all.
Never mind.
I have obtained one top secret information.....
Sebastian will most probably start test today
Sebastian will most probably start test today
Hey guys, just a small status update:
1. First of all, it's not easy to organize listening tests and I have been pretty busy with private stuff lately.
2. A new LAME version was released on RareWares yesterday. It doesn't matter if it adds changes that affect audio quality because people usually only look at the version and then ask "is 3.98.x now better than 3.98?", "why didn't you test 3.98.x"? At least the known bugs should be fixed so I don't expect a new build to pop up soon so that I can take 3.98.2 for the test.
3. I am currently having problems with hosting the samples. Roberto was kind enough to host them for me in the past but I was unable to reach him and I cannot host them myself because of the copyright situation in Germany.
I don't think I will be able to make it today because I just got home from work, but I will really do my best to start the test this week. Thanks to everyone who submitted samples by the way.
Edit: IgorC, For some reason I wasn't notified that you replied to my thread that is why I didn't even notice. Re-subscribed now - hopefully it works.
1. First of all, it's not easy to organize listening tests and I have been pretty busy with private stuff lately.
2. A new LAME version was released on RareWares yesterday. It doesn't matter if it adds changes that affect audio quality because people usually only look at the version and then ask "is 3.98.x now better than 3.98?", "why didn't you test 3.98.x"? At least the known bugs should be fixed so I don't expect a new build to pop up soon so that I can take 3.98.2 for the test.
3. I am currently having problems with hosting the samples. Roberto was kind enough to host them for me in the past but I was unable to reach him and I cannot host them myself because of the copyright situation in Germany.
I don't think I will be able to make it today because I just got home from work, but I will really do my best to start the test this week. Thanks to everyone who submitted samples by the way.
Edit: IgorC, For some reason I wasn't notified that you replied to my thread that is why I didn't even notice. Re-subscribed now - hopefully it works.
QUOTE(Sebastian Mares) 
I am currently having problems with hosting the samples. Roberto was kind enough to host them for me in the past but I was unable to reach him and I cannot host them myself because of the copyright situation in Germany.
I could do that for you. Straight FTP though, no torrents.
Thanks! What kind of connection do you have? Any traffic limits?
QUOTE(Sebastian Mares)
Thanks! What kind of connection do you have? Any traffic limits?
I happen to work for an ISP, so I have my own little private web/FTP/mail server hooked up to 2 redundant Gbit uplinks in a western European data centre. No traffic limits of any kind for a couple of tens of GBytes of sound files to become too much 
So availability and performance shouldn't be any problem whatsoever.
Just finished encoding all samples - finally. One of the samples produces 214 kbps with LAME 3.98.2 -V5.7. LAME 3.97 -V5 --vbr-new reaches 198 kbps. iTunes on the other hand set to 112 kbps VBR highest setting reaches only 122 kbps.
Would you count this as a big problem?
Would you count this as a big problem?
Wait, just one sample is out of whack?
FhG produces also 212 kbps for this sample.
The other samples are also quite high. I will post a bitrate table... Just give me some time, it's after midnight and my brain and body only work at 50%.
The other samples are also quite high. I will post a bitrate table... Just give me some time, it's after midnight and my brain and body only work at 50%.
CODE
LAME 3.97 LAME 3.98.2 iTunes FhG Helix Low Anchor
Sample 01 97 107 115 119 114 128
Sample 02 126 149 113 121 110 128
Sample 03 138 143 119 139 126 128
Sample 04 149 139 116 140 151 128
Sample 05 146 138 121 144 149 128
Sample 06 149 142 120 149 151 128
Sample 07 95 109 118 134 131 128
Sample 08 147 136 113 128 137 128
Sample 09 109 118 115 128 97 128
Sample 10 158 152 120 147 152 128
Sample 11 148 145 117 133 117 128
Sample 12 194 214 122 212 227 128
Sample 13 132 145 124 150 142 128
Sample 14 159 156 124 163 173 128
Sample 01 97 107 115 119 114 128
Sample 02 126 149 113 121 110 128
Sample 03 138 143 119 139 126 128
Sample 04 149 139 116 140 151 128
Sample 05 146 138 121 144 149 128
Sample 06 149 142 120 149 151 128
Sample 07 95 109 118 134 131 128
Sample 08 147 136 113 128 137 128
Sample 09 109 118 115 128 97 128
Sample 10 158 152 120 147 152 128
Sample 11 148 145 117 133 117 128
Sample 12 194 214 122 212 227 128
Sample 13 132 145 124 150 142 128
Sample 14 159 156 124 163 173 128
Seems that iTunes is only very restrictive. Wondering if I should simply set it to 128 kbps instead of 112 kbps.
Have you looked at a histogram?
Anyway, I don't want to repeat the discussion we had about this last year, but I haven't changed my opinion about it. iTunes should be configured at 128, especially since you don't expect it to do well anyhow. Might as well not leave any wiggle room like the previous test did.
Anyway, I don't want to repeat the discussion we had about this last year, but I haven't changed my opinion about it. iTunes should be configured at 128, especially since you don't expect it to do well anyhow. Might as well not leave any wiggle room like the previous test did.
Hmm, damn... Maybe they changed the MP3 encoder with iTunes 8. Does anyone have the old iTunes 7? I would install it on a VM and compare the bitrates it produces vs. iTunes 8. If iTunes 7 makes higher bitrates at 112 kbps, I will definitely go with 128 in iTunes 8. Otherwise, is it fair to adjust the encoder settings based on short samples only if otherwise 112 VBR produces an average of 128 kbps when fed with whole tracks?
Regarding the other encoders, if you "ignore" iTunes, I would say that the bitrate fluctuations of the other samples are OK (like for example Sample 02 where Helix allocated 110 kbps and LAME 3.98.2 149 kbps).
Regarding the other encoders, if you "ignore" iTunes, I would say that the bitrate fluctuations of the other samples are OK (like for example Sample 02 where Helix allocated 110 kbps and LAME 3.98.2 149 kbps).
Found iTunes 7.7 myself. 112 kbps produces 122 kbps and 128 kbps produces 141 kbps for that specific sample.
The question is: should I choose 128 kbps for all iTunes samples even if 112 kbps is "nearer" to to the target bitrate of this test according to Alex B's findings (when encoding full tracks)?
The question is: should I choose 128 kbps for all iTunes samples even if 112 kbps is "nearer" to to the target bitrate of this test according to Alex B's findings (when encoding full tracks)?
Hold on a moment.
I am just encoding my various and classical sets with iTunes 8. Probably iTunes has changed again. Maybe the increased VBR bitrates in the latest iTunes 7 builds were not intentional after all. Before that previous change 128 kbps VBR produced a suitable average bitrate. I'll post the results in an hour or so.
P.S. Sorry, that I have not been available for a while. I have had busy times lately. Looks like you had to make the final sample selections without lots of help from others. Are you going to keep the list secret until the test is out?
I am just encoding my various and classical sets with iTunes 8. Probably iTunes has changed again. Maybe the increased VBR bitrates in the latest iTunes 7 builds were not intentional after all. Before that previous change 128 kbps VBR produced a suitable average bitrate. I'll post the results in an hour or so.
P.S. Sorry, that I have not been available for a while. I have had busy times lately. Looks like you had to make the final sample selections without lots of help from others. Are you going to keep the list secret until the test is out?
I don't think bitrates have changed. With iTunes 7.7 (last 7 build) the bitrate is identical to iTunes 8. The problem is that iTunes seems to be very restrictive with the bitrate allocation. A quick look with EncSpot shows that 80% of the frames are encoded with the target bitrate.
You are right, the bitrate behavior has not changed. In fact, the resulting files are bit identical. I checked that with foobar's bitcompare tool. Maybe I misunderstood what you meant.
Here is an excerpt from my previous bitrate test report:
IMHO, it would not be acceptable to use a setting that produces 161 kbps on average with various rock & pop music.
In my test the new iTunes 112 VBR produced bitrates from 114 to 168 kbps. AFAICS, its encoder is not very restrictive anymore (except that its minimum bitrate is strictly restricted to the defined setting.)
I wonder if iTunes is doing something funny when the encoded file has a short duration. Have you compared a sample and its complete source track after encoding?
Also, just to make sure we are using the same settings, here is what I have set for 112 kbps VBR:
Here is an excerpt from my previous bitrate test report:
QUOTE(Alex B @ Aug 20 2008, 17:44)
Apparently iTunes has changed radically since my last test. Back then the 128 kbps VBR setting was suitable, but the 7.7 version uses bitrates in a more relaxed way and the 128 kbps VBR setting produces higher bitrates than before. Fortunately the 112 kbps VBR setting appears to be suitable for our test.
Summary
Summary
IMHO, it would not be acceptable to use a setting that produces 161 kbps on average with various rock & pop music.
QUOTE(Sebastian Mares @ Oct 1 2008, 14:15)
I don't think bitrates have changed. With iTunes 7.7 (last 7 build) the bitrate is identical to iTunes 8. The problem is that iTunes seems to be very restrictive with the bitrate allocation. A quick look with EncSpot shows that 80% of the frames are encoded with the target bitrate.
In my test the new iTunes 112 VBR produced bitrates from 114 to 168 kbps. AFAICS, its encoder is not very restrictive anymore (except that its minimum bitrate is strictly restricted to the defined setting.)
I wonder if iTunes is doing something funny when the encoded file has a short duration. Have you compared a sample and its complete source track after encoding?
Also, just to make sure we are using the same settings, here is what I have set for 112 kbps VBR:
QUOTE(Alex B @ Oct 1 2008, 15:49)
In my test the new iTunes 112 VBR produced bitrates from 114 to 168 kbps. AFAICS, its encoder is not very restrictive anymore (except that its minimum bitrate is strictly restricted to the defined setting.)
What I mean with restrictive is that when you have a look at the MP3 files produced by LAME or FhG with EncSpot, you will see that there is a quite even distribution of frames between let's say 64 kbps and 320 kbps. When you look at iTunes files, you see that about 80% of the frames are coded at 112 or 128 kbps (depending on what bitrate you set iTunes to encode to) and only 20% of the frames have other bitrates. That is why with my samples (most of them if you look at the table), iTunes has the lowest bitrate (you don't find a single sample with a bitrate higher than 130 kbps or lower than 112 kbps when the target bitrate is 112 kbps - the latter having the explanation that the bitrate you set in iTunes is also handled as min bitrate for VBR coding).
QUOTE(Alex B @ Oct 1 2008, 15:49)
I wonder if iTunes is doing something funny when the encoded file has a short duration. Have you compared a sample and its complete source track after encoding?
I will encode one or two files when I am at home in a few hours.
QUOTE(Alex B @ Oct 1 2008, 15:49)
Also, just to make sure we are using the same settings, here is what I have set for 112 kbps VBR:
Yes, same settings here.
Now the big question is whether or not to leave everything as-is. In the end, all other coders (except for low anchor that is CBR) allocate high bitrates for the specific sample we're talking about here. That is why I would say that if iTunes thinks it can handle the file fine with 122 kbps and in fact it doesn't, then its psy / VBR model is to blame.
QUOTE(Sebastian Mares @ Oct 1 2008, 17:46)
When you look at iTunes files, you see that about 80% of the frames are coded at 112 or 128 kbps (depending on what bitrate you set iTunes to encode to) and only 20% of the frames have other bitrates.
That is odd. I don't see it happening with my test tracks. Only the files with the lowest bitrate are like you said. The complex files show more bitrate variation. Though apparently 112 VBR has a 224 kbps max bitrate limit and 128 VBR 256 kbps max bitrate limit (I hadn't noticed the upper limit before)
Here's what EncSpot says about the three tracks that produced the highest bitrates @ 112 VBR:
CODE
Kraftwerk
Bitrates:
----------------------------------------------------
112 |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 31.2%
128 |||||| 5.4%
160 |||||||||||||||||||||| 18.4%
192 |||||||||||||||| 12.9%
224 |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 32.1%
----------------------------------------------------
Type : mpeg 1 layer III
Bitrate : 168
Mode : joint stereo
Frequency : 44100 Hz
Frames : 10045
ID3v2 Size : 2146
First Frame Pos : 2146
Length : 00:04:22
Max. Reservoir : 167
Av. Reservoir : 72
Emphasis : none
Scalefac : 9.9%
Bad Last Frame : no
Encoder : FhG (fastenc)
Lame Header : No
--[ EncSpot 2.1 ]--[ http://www.guerillasoft.com ]--
Faithless
Bitrates:
----------------------------------------------------
112 |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 25.7%
128 |||||||||||||||||| 11.6%
160 |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 23.6%
192 ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 20.5%
224 |||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 18.6%
----------------------------------------------------
Type : mpeg 1 layer III
Bitrate : 162
Mode : joint stereo
Frequency : 44100 Hz
Frames : 8588
ID3v2 Size : 2140
First Frame Pos : 2140
Length : 00:03:44
Max. Reservoir : 246
Av. Reservoir : 76
Emphasis : none
Scalefac : 5.7%
Bad Last Frame : no
Encoder : FhG (fastenc)
Lame Header : No
--[ EncSpot 2.1 ]--[ http://www.guerillasoft.com ]--
Yello
Bitrates:
----------------------------------------------------
112 |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 34.1%
128 |||||||||| 8.7%
160 ||||||||||||||||||| 17.0%
192 |||||||||||||||||| 15.4%
224 ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 24.8%
----------------------------------------------------
Type : mpeg 1 layer III
Bitrate : 161
Mode : joint stereo
Frequency : 44100 Hz
Frames : 7220
ID3v2 Size : 2131
First Frame Pos : 2131
Length : 00:03:08
Max. Reservoir : 345
Av. Reservoir : 76
Emphasis : none
Scalefac : 4.7%
Bad Last Frame : no
Encoder : FhG (fastenc)
Lame Header : No
--[ EncSpot 2.1 ]--[ http://www.guerillasoft.com ]--
Bitrates:
----------------------------------------------------
112 |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 31.2%
128 |||||| 5.4%
160 |||||||||||||||||||||| 18.4%
192 |||||||||||||||| 12.9%
224 |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 32.1%
----------------------------------------------------
Type : mpeg 1 layer III
Bitrate : 168
Mode : joint stereo
Frequency : 44100 Hz
Frames : 10045
ID3v2 Size : 2146
First Frame Pos : 2146
Length : 00:04:22
Max. Reservoir : 167
Av. Reservoir : 72
Emphasis : none
Scalefac : 9.9%
Bad Last Frame : no
Encoder : FhG (fastenc)
Lame Header : No
--[ EncSpot 2.1 ]--[ http://www.guerillasoft.com ]--
Faithless
Bitrates:
----------------------------------------------------
112 |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 25.7%
128 |||||||||||||||||| 11.6%
160 |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 23.6%
192 ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 20.5%
224 |||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 18.6%
----------------------------------------------------
Type : mpeg 1 layer III
Bitrate : 162
Mode : joint stereo
Frequency : 44100 Hz
Frames : 8588
ID3v2 Size : 2140
First Frame Pos : 2140
Length : 00:03:44
Max. Reservoir : 246
Av. Reservoir : 76
Emphasis : none
Scalefac : 5.7%
Bad Last Frame : no
Encoder : FhG (fastenc)
Lame Header : No
--[ EncSpot 2.1 ]--[ http://www.guerillasoft.com ]--
Yello
Bitrates:
----------------------------------------------------
112 |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 34.1%
128 |||||||||| 8.7%
160 ||||||||||||||||||| 17.0%
192 |||||||||||||||||| 15.4%
224 ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 24.8%
----------------------------------------------------
Type : mpeg 1 layer III
Bitrate : 161
Mode : joint stereo
Frequency : 44100 Hz
Frames : 7220
ID3v2 Size : 2131
First Frame Pos : 2131
Length : 00:03:08
Max. Reservoir : 345
Av. Reservoir : 76
Emphasis : none
Scalefac : 4.7%
Bad Last Frame : no
Encoder : FhG (fastenc)
Lame Header : No
--[ EncSpot 2.1 ]--[ http://www.guerillasoft.com ]--
...and before anyone complains: The files are encoded with iTunes. EncSpot's guess is incorrect.
Just did a quick test with some samples and there is no difference between full tracks and samples. If the sample had let's say 88% 112 kbps frames, the full track also had around 80% 112 kbps frames. Wondering why...
I created samples of the three high bitrate tracks in my previous post:
I think they are fine when I compare about the same passages in the complete encoded tracks.
The big question is why your "hard to encode" samples do not produce higher bitrates if mine do.
You can download my samples from here: http://rapidshare.com/files/150063026/set_...ate_samples.rar (10.8 MB)
CODE
Kraftwerk (sample)
Bitrates:
----------------------------------------------------
112 ||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 25.2%
128 ||||| 5.3%
160 |||||||||||||||||||| 18.9%
192 ||||||||||||||| 14.0%
224 |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 36.5%
----------------------------------------------------
Type : mpeg 1 layer III
Bitrate : 174
Mode : joint stereo
Frequency : 44100 Hz
Frames : 1142
ID3v2 Size : 2149
First Frame Pos : 2149
Length : 00:00:29
Max. Reservoir : 204
Av. Reservoir : 78
Emphasis : none
Scalefac : 12.1%
Bad Last Frame : no
Encoder : FhG (fastenc)
Lame Header : No
--[ EncSpot 2.1 ]--[ http://www.guerillasoft.com ]--
Faithless (sample)
Bitrates:
----------------------------------------------------
112 |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 25.1%
128 |||||||||||||||||||||| 13.9%
160 ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 23.4%
192 ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 23.3%
224 |||||||||||||||||||||| 14.2%
----------------------------------------------------
Type : mpeg 1 layer III
Bitrate : 160
Mode : joint stereo
Frequency : 44100 Hz
Frames : 1143
ID3v2 Size : 2143
First Frame Pos : 2143
Length : 00:00:29
Max. Reservoir : 186
Av. Reservoir : 77
Emphasis : none
Scalefac : 5.1%
Bad Last Frame : no
Encoder : FhG (fastenc)
Lame Header : No
--[ EncSpot 2.1 ]--[ http://www.guerillasoft.com ]--
Yello (sample)
Bitrates:
----------------------------------------------------
112 |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 42.1%
128 ||||||||||||| 14.4%
160 ||||||||||||||||||||||| 25.0%
192 |||||||||| 11.3%
224 |||||| 7.2%
----------------------------------------------------
Type : mpeg 1 layer III
Bitrate : 143
Mode : joint stereo
Frequency : 44100 Hz
Frames : 1146
ID3v2 Size : 2134
First Frame Pos : 2134
Length : 00:00:29
Max. Reservoir : 186
Av. Reservoir : 71
Emphasis : none
Scalefac : 5.6%
Bad Last Frame : no
Encoder : FhG (fastenc)
Lame Header : No
--[ EncSpot 2.1 ]--[ http://www.guerillasoft.com ]--
Bitrates:
----------------------------------------------------
112 ||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 25.2%
128 ||||| 5.3%
160 |||||||||||||||||||| 18.9%
192 ||||||||||||||| 14.0%
224 |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 36.5%
----------------------------------------------------
Type : mpeg 1 layer III
Bitrate : 174
Mode : joint stereo
Frequency : 44100 Hz
Frames : 1142
ID3v2 Size : 2149
First Frame Pos : 2149
Length : 00:00:29
Max. Reservoir : 204
Av. Reservoir : 78
Emphasis : none
Scalefac : 12.1%
Bad Last Frame : no
Encoder : FhG (fastenc)
Lame Header : No
--[ EncSpot 2.1 ]--[ http://www.guerillasoft.com ]--
Faithless (sample)
Bitrates:
----------------------------------------------------
112 |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 25.1%
128 |||||||||||||||||||||| 13.9%
160 ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 23.4%
192 ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 23.3%
224 |||||||||||||||||||||| 14.2%
----------------------------------------------------
Type : mpeg 1 layer III
Bitrate : 160
Mode : joint stereo
Frequency : 44100 Hz
Frames : 1143
ID3v2 Size : 2143
First Frame Pos : 2143
Length : 00:00:29
Max. Reservoir : 186
Av. Reservoir : 77
Emphasis : none
Scalefac : 5.1%
Bad Last Frame : no
Encoder : FhG (fastenc)
Lame Header : No
--[ EncSpot 2.1 ]--[ http://www.guerillasoft.com ]--
Yello (sample)
Bitrates:
----------------------------------------------------
112 |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 42.1%
128 ||||||||||||| 14.4%
160 ||||||||||||||||||||||| 25.0%
192 |||||||||| 11.3%
224 |||||| 7.2%
----------------------------------------------------
Type : mpeg 1 layer III
Bitrate : 143
Mode : joint stereo
Frequency : 44100 Hz
Frames : 1146
ID3v2 Size : 2134
First Frame Pos : 2134
Length : 00:00:29
Max. Reservoir : 186
Av. Reservoir : 71
Emphasis : none
Scalefac : 5.6%
Bad Last Frame : no
Encoder : FhG (fastenc)
Lame Header : No
--[ EncSpot 2.1 ]--[ http://www.guerillasoft.com ]--
I think they are fine when I compare about the same passages in the complete encoded tracks.
The big question is why your "hard to encode" samples do not produce higher bitrates if mine do.
You can download my samples from here: http://rapidshare.com/files/150063026/set_...ate_samples.rar (10.8 MB)
Could you please encode fatboy with iTunes and tell me what the outcome is? I really hope it is 122 kbps - otherwise, there is something really wrong with my PC.
If that produces a low bitrate while other tracks you tested produce a high bitrate it means that iTunes' VBR implementation thinks that the 122 kbps should be sufficient and I see no problem then. If the sample sounds worse, than LAME which uses 200 kbps, then we can say hard luck because iTunes could have increased the bitrate if it felt the need for it.
If that produces a low bitrate while other tracks you tested produce a high bitrate it means that iTunes' VBR implementation thinks that the 122 kbps should be sufficient and I see no problem then. If the sample sounds worse, than LAME which uses 200 kbps, then we can say hard luck because iTunes could have increased the bitrate if it felt the need for it.
Done.
The encoded file is here: http://rapidshare.com/files/150073489/fatboy_30sec.rar
You must feel like
or maybe 
...
Ever called Apple's support?
CODE
Fatboy_30sec
Bitrates:
----------------------------------------------------
112 ||||||||||| 17.8%
128 || 4.4%
160 ||||| 8.5%
192 ||||| 8.4%
224 |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 60.9%
----------------------------------------------------
Type : mpeg 1 layer III
Bitrate : 191
Mode : joint stereo
Frequency : 44100 Hz
Frames : 1122
ID3v2 Size : 2123
First Frame Pos : 2123
Length : 00:00:29
Max. Reservoir : 428
Av. Reservoir : 65
Emphasis : none
Scalefac : 5.6%
Bad Last Frame : no
Encoder : FhG (fastenc)
Lame Header : No
--[ EncSpot 2.1 ]--[ http://www.guerillasoft.com ]--
Bitrates:
----------------------------------------------------
112 ||||||||||| 17.8%
128 || 4.4%
160 ||||| 8.5%
192 ||||| 8.4%
224 |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 60.9%
----------------------------------------------------
Type : mpeg 1 layer III
Bitrate : 191
Mode : joint stereo
Frequency : 44100 Hz
Frames : 1122
ID3v2 Size : 2123
First Frame Pos : 2123
Length : 00:00:29
Max. Reservoir : 428
Av. Reservoir : 65
Emphasis : none
Scalefac : 5.6%
Bad Last Frame : no
Encoder : FhG (fastenc)
Lame Header : No
--[ EncSpot 2.1 ]--[ http://www.guerillasoft.com ]--
The encoded file is here: http://rapidshare.com/files/150073489/fatboy_30sec.rar
You must feel like
or maybe ... Ever called Apple's support?
WTF?! This is impossible... I decoded that file with fb2k to WAV. Then I added it to the iTunes library, configured the MP3 encoder, right clicked on the file and told it to convert the file to MP3. Then I took both fb2k and EncSpot 2.2 (that castrated Pro version) and checked the bitrate: 122 kbps.
Edit: The really funny thing is that the test with iTunes 7.7 which I performed today was with a different machine.
Edit: The really funny thing is that the test with iTunes 7.7 which I performed today was with a different machine.
Naturally I could help if your iTunes really has a problem that can't be quickly solved. It would take only a few minutes to encode the sample set.
EDIT
What is your iTunes build version? I have 8.0.0.35.
EDIT
What is your iTunes build version? I have 8.0.0.35.
1) I took fatboy sample (only 5 seconds long) from http://lame.sourceforge.net/download/samples/fatboy.wv;
2) encoded it with Itunes (112kbps VBR);
3) resulting file is 125kbps.
2) encoded it with Itunes (112kbps VBR);
3) resulting file is 125kbps.
OK, you have the short version. Could you test with the 30 seconds version?
QUOTE(Alex B @ Oct 1 2008, 23:08)
What is your iTunes build version? I have 8.0.0.35.
8.0.0.35 as well. I have a German version, BTW, but that shouldn't matter.
I take you use Windows not Mac OS? I'm on a German Vista Home Premium SP1. Wondering if my encoder is "broken" or yours since mine seems to always produce files that are very close to the target bitrate specified in the settings, while your is fluctuating a lot more. Also, 128 kbps produces nearly 128 kbps over my collection of files while your encoder reaches 160 kbps in average.
I have English Windows XP Pro.
I tested the shorter fatboy:
I checked also the 30s sample by calculating the bitrate from the file size and duration (I removed the ID3 tags with Mp3tag before checking the file size):
(701348 bytes x 8 bits per byte / 29.245 sec) x 1000 = 191.854 kbps
I tested the shorter fatboy:
CODE
Fatboy_5sec
Bitrates:
----------------------------------------------------
112 |||| 9.7%
128 2.1%
160 | 2.6%
192 2.1%
224 |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 83.1%
----------------------------------------------------
Type : mpeg 1 layer III
Bitrate : 208
Mode : joint stereo
Frequency : 44100 Hz
Frames : 195
ID3v2 Size : 2122
First Frame Pos : 2122
Length : 00:00:05.0
Max. Reservoir : 345
Av. Reservoir : 59
Emphasis : none
Scalefac : 4.1%
Bad Last Frame : no
Encoder : FhG (fastenc)
Lame Header : No
--[ EncSpot 2.1 ]--[ http://www.guerillasoft.com ]--
Bitrates:
----------------------------------------------------
112 |||| 9.7%
128 2.1%
160 | 2.6%
192 2.1%
224 |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 83.1%
----------------------------------------------------
Type : mpeg 1 layer III
Bitrate : 208
Mode : joint stereo
Frequency : 44100 Hz
Frames : 195
ID3v2 Size : 2122
First Frame Pos : 2122
Length : 00:00:05.0
Max. Reservoir : 345
Av. Reservoir : 59
Emphasis : none
Scalefac : 4.1%
Bad Last Frame : no
Encoder : FhG (fastenc)
Lame Header : No
--[ EncSpot 2.1 ]--[ http://www.guerillasoft.com ]--
I checked also the 30s sample by calculating the bitrate from the file size and duration (I removed the ID3 tags with Mp3tag before checking the file size):
(701348 bytes x 8 bits per byte / 29.245 sec) x 1000 = 191.854 kbps
This is really weird. I will encode at work tomorrow where I have an XP and Vista PC. Maybe the OS is to blame.
BTW, were iTunes 7 MP3s recognized as being encoded by FhG in EncSpot? I hope Apple didn't throw away their encoder in favor of FhG.
Edit: And BTW, you are testing with 112 kbps, correct?
BTW, were iTunes 7 MP3s recognized as being encoded by FhG in EncSpot? I hope Apple didn't throw away their encoder in favor of FhG.
Edit: And BTW, you are testing with 112 kbps, correct?
QUOTE(Sebastian Mares @ Oct 2 2008, 00:33)
QUOTE(Alex B @ Oct 1 2008, 23:08)
What is your iTunes build version? I have 8.0.0.35.
Please encode the three samples I uploaded to Rapishare so that we can compare the results.
EDIT
I think we need help from others. It would help if a few other HA members could encode these samples. The correcty settings can be checked from the screenshot I posted earlier.
I have now only one PC with iTunes (a laptop). My HTPC is "under construction" and it may take a few days before it is usable again. Otherwise I could verify the results on a different PC and software setup.
Faithless:
Kraftwerk:
Yello:
CODE
Bitrates:
----------------------------------------------------
112 |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 77.1%
128 ||||| 11.5%
160 |||| 8.9%
192 1.8%
224 0.5%
----------------------------------------------------
Type : mpeg 1 layer III
Bitrate : 120
Mode : joint stereo
Frequency : 44100 Hz
Frames : 1143
ID3v2 Size : 2139
First Frame Pos : 2139
Length : 00:00:29
Max. Reservoir : 115
Av. Reservoir : 56
Emphasis : none
Scalefac : 3.7%
Bad Last Frame : no
Encoder : FhG (fastenc)
Lame Header : No
--[ EncSpot 2.2 ]--[ http://www.guerillasoft.com ]--
----------------------------------------------------
112 |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 77.1%
128 ||||| 11.5%
160 |||| 8.9%
192 1.8%
224 0.5%
----------------------------------------------------
Type : mpeg 1 layer III
Bitrate : 120
Mode : joint stereo
Frequency : 44100 Hz
Frames : 1143
ID3v2 Size : 2139
First Frame Pos : 2139
Length : 00:00:29
Max. Reservoir : 115
Av. Reservoir : 56
Emphasis : none
Scalefac : 3.7%
Bad Last Frame : no
Encoder : FhG (fastenc)
Lame Header : No
--[ EncSpot 2.2 ]--[ http://www.guerillasoft.com ]--
Kraftwerk:
CODE
Bitrates:
----------------------------------------------------
112 |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 75.6%
128 | 3.4%
160 |||||||||| 19.7%
192 0.4%
224 0.8%
----------------------------------------------------
Type : mpeg 1 layer III
Bitrate : 123
Mode : joint stereo
Frequency : 44100 Hz
Frames : 1142
ID3v2 Size : 2145
First Frame Pos : 2145
Length : 00:00:29
Max. Reservoir : 156
Av. Reservoir : 48
Emphasis : none
Scalefac : 2.8%
Bad Last Frame : no
Encoder : FhG (fastenc)
Lame Header : No
--[ EncSpot 2.2 ]--[ http://www.guerillasoft.com ]--
----------------------------------------------------
112 |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 75.6%
128 | 3.4%
160 |||||||||| 19.7%
192 0.4%
224 0.8%
----------------------------------------------------
Type : mpeg 1 layer III
Bitrate : 123
Mode : joint stereo
Frequency : 44100 Hz
Frames : 1142
ID3v2 Size : 2145
First Frame Pos : 2145
Length : 00:00:29
Max. Reservoir : 156
Av. Reservoir : 48
Emphasis : none
Scalefac : 2.8%
Bad Last Frame : no
Encoder : FhG (fastenc)
Lame Header : No
--[ EncSpot 2.2 ]--[ http://www.guerillasoft.com ]--
Yello:
CODE
Bitrates:
----------------------------------------------------
112 |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 76.6%
128 |||| 9.0%
160 ||||| 11.4%
192 1.8%
224 1.0%
----------------------------------------------------
Type : mpeg 1 layer III
Bitrate : 121
Mode : joint stereo
Frequency : 44100 Hz
Frames : 1146
ID3v2 Size : 2130
First Frame Pos : 2130
Length : 00:00:29
Max. Reservoir : 164
Av. Reservoir : 58
Emphasis : none
Scalefac : 3.4%
Bad Last Frame : no
Encoder : FhG (fastenc)
Lame Header : No
--[ EncSpot 2.2 ]--[ http://www.guerillasoft.com ]--
----------------------------------------------------
112 |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 76.6%
128 |||| 9.0%
160 ||||| 11.4%
192 1.8%
224 1.0%
----------------------------------------------------
Type : mpeg 1 layer III
Bitrate : 121
Mode : joint stereo
Frequency : 44100 Hz
Frames : 1146
ID3v2 Size : 2130
First Frame Pos : 2130
Length : 00:00:29
Max. Reservoir : 164
Av. Reservoir : 58
Emphasis : none
Scalefac : 3.4%
Bad Last Frame : no
Encoder : FhG (fastenc)
Lame Header : No
--[ EncSpot 2.2 ]--[ http://www.guerillasoft.com ]--
QUOTE(Sebastian Mares @ Oct 2 2008, 00:46)
BTW, were iTunes 7 MP3s recognized as being encoded by FhG in EncSpot? I hope Apple didn't throw away their encoder in favor of FhG.
Encspot has always done that.
QUOTE
Edit: And BTW, you are testing with 112 kbps, correct?
I have double and triple-checked the settings.
Also, my iTunes v.7.7.1.11 VBR112 and VBR128 results from August are identical with the new v.8 results.
Though I used this same PC back then. (I didn't want to install the bloated iTunes 7.7 on my other PC.)
This PC has a quite new OS installation. I installed a new hard drive and a vanilla XP Pro SP2 in April. The first iTunes version I installed was 7.6.2.9 (I have the installer still on the HD).
Seriously, this is very strange. I hope other encoders (LAME, FhG, Xing) aren't affected by this.
I will test tomorrow morning under Vista and XP.
I will test tomorrow morning under Vista and XP.
This is a wild guess, but could it be possible that Apple has not changed the encoder after all? What if they have just loosened some hidden parameters, which might be stored in the registry. If they did a crappy job maybe a newer installer does not correctly overwrite the old parameters. It might be handling them as user settings which are carried over.
Have you had old iTunes versions installed on your OS? When I tested 7.4.2.9 about a year ago the bitrates were a lot lower.
Have you had old iTunes versions installed on your OS? When I tested 7.4.2.9 about a year ago the bitrates were a lot lower.
I had 7.4 as first version IIRC, then 7.7 and then updated to 8 when it came out a few days ago.
I tested fatboy_30sec and I got the same result as Sebastian (121kbps). Here is a result of bitrate fluctuation analysis:
iTunes: (larger image)
iTunes(Alex): (larger image)
LAME: (larger image)
The result of fatboy_30sec.mp3 by Alex seems to be close to the result by true VBR encoder like LAME. I'm very interested in how Alex obtained this mp3 file with iTunes...
iTunes: (larger image)
iTunes(Alex): (larger image)
LAME: (larger image)
The result of fatboy_30sec.mp3 by Alex seems to be close to the result by true VBR encoder like LAME. I'm very interested in how Alex obtained this mp3 file with iTunes...
thanks for help
Awesome! I just installed iTunes 8 on a fresh Vista Home Premium SP 1 and a fresh Windows XP Professional SP 3. Results for fatboy (30 seconds):
Vista: 122 kbps
XP: 191 kbps
So, I guess I will have to contact Apple support...
Vista: 122 kbps
XP: 191 kbps
So, I guess I will have to contact Apple support...
That's really strange, but at least you found something. I was beginning to suspect that my SW configuration has something terribly wrong.
I wonder what kind of file a Mac iTunes would encode. Could anyone test this on a Mac and post a sample with details about the CPU and OS/SW versions?
EDIT
I converted the Fatboy 30 sec FLAC sample to Apple Lossless. It is available here:
http://rapidshare.com/files/150190105/fatboy_30sec_alac.zip
I wonder what kind of file a Mac iTunes would encode. Could anyone test this on a Mac and post a sample with details about the CPU and OS/SW versions?
EDIT
I converted the Fatboy 30 sec FLAC sample to Apple Lossless. It is available here:
http://rapidshare.com/files/150190105/fatboy_30sec_alac.zip
I've tested fatboy_30sec on various environments with my Mac. Here are results:
OSX 10.5, Core 2 Duo, iTunes 8.0: 121 kbps
OSX 10.4, Core 2 Duo, iTunes 7.7.1: 121 kbps
OSX 10.4, PPC G5, iTunes 8.0: 122 kbps
OSX 10.5, PPC G4, iTunes 7.7.1: 192 kbps
OSX 10.5, PPC G4, iTunes 7.6: 192 kbps
OSX 10.4, PPC G4, iTunes 7.2: 192 kbps
Strange result. Different encoding algorithms are used according to CPU???
OSX 10.5, Core 2 Duo, iTunes 8.0: 121 kbps
OSX 10.4, Core 2 Duo, iTunes 7.7.1: 121 kbps
OSX 10.4, PPC G5, iTunes 8.0: 122 kbps
OSX 10.5, PPC G4, iTunes 7.7.1: 192 kbps
OSX 10.5, PPC G4, iTunes 7.6: 192 kbps
OSX 10.4, PPC G4, iTunes 7.2: 192 kbps
Strange result. Different encoding algorithms are used according to CPU???
-
A friend visited our office today. He had an old iTunes version installed on his Celeron M / XP Home SP2 laptop.
I encoded the fatboy sample with his iTunes 6.0.5.20. The version is well over two years old.
The file is not identical with my iTunes 8 encoded file, but the bitrate behavior is similar.
Also this is a surprising result because I have believed that the older iTunes versions always created very restricted VBR files.
I encoded the fatboy sample with his iTunes 6.0.5.20. The version is well over two years old.
CODE
Fatboy_30sec_iTunes_v.6.0.5.20
Bitrates:
----------------------------------------------------
112 ||||||||||| 17.1%
128 || 3.7%
160 ||||| 8.6%
192 ||||| 8.6%
224 |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 61.9%
----------------------------------------------------
Type : mpeg 1 layer III
Bitrate : 192
Mode : joint stereo
Frequency : 44100 Hz
Frames : 1122
ID3v2 Size : 2102
First Frame Pos : 2102
Length : 00:00:29
Max. Reservoir : 428
Av. Reservoir : 68
Emphasis : none
Scalefac : 4.9%
Bad Last Frame : no
Encoder : FhG (fastenc)
Lame Header : No
--[ EncSpot 2.1 ]--[ http://www.guerillasoft.com ]--
Bitrates:
----------------------------------------------------
112 ||||||||||| 17.1%
128 || 3.7%
160 ||||| 8.6%
192 ||||| 8.6%
224 |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 61.9%
----------------------------------------------------
Type : mpeg 1 layer III
Bitrate : 192
Mode : joint stereo
Frequency : 44100 Hz
Frames : 1122
ID3v2 Size : 2102
First Frame Pos : 2102
Length : 00:00:29
Max. Reservoir : 428
Av. Reservoir : 68
Emphasis : none
Scalefac : 4.9%
Bad Last Frame : no
Encoder : FhG (fastenc)
Lame Header : No
--[ EncSpot 2.1 ]--[ http://www.guerillasoft.com ]--
The file is not identical with my iTunes 8 encoded file, but the bitrate behavior is similar.
Also this is a surprising result because I have believed that the older iTunes versions always created very restricted VBR files.
WinXP SP2 clean install, Fatboy 5-sec:
Itunes 6.0.4.2 (QT 7.1): 207 kbps
Itunes 7.7.0.43 (QT 7.50.61.0): 207 kbps
Curiouser and curiouser...
Itunes 6.0.4.2 (QT 7.1): 207 kbps
Itunes 7.7.0.43 (QT 7.50.61.0): 207 kbps
Curiouser and curiouser...
QUOTE(lvqcl @ Oct 2 2008, 20:16)
WinXP SP2 clean install, Fatboy 5-sec:
Itunes 6.0.4.2 (QT 7.1): 207 kbps
Itunes 7.7.0.43 (QT 7.50.61.0): 207 kbps
Itunes 6.0.4.2 (QT 7.1): 207 kbps
Itunes 7.7.0.43 (QT 7.50.61.0): 207 kbps
I got about the same bitrate when I encoded the short sample with iTunes 8. EncSpot displayed 208 kbps.
EDIT
What OS and iTunes version did you use when you got 125 kbps?
QUOTE(Alex B @ Oct 2 2008, 21:31)
EncSpot displayed 208 kbps.
Yes. But iTunes itself and foobar2000 report 207kbps.
QUOTE(Alex B @ Oct 2 2008, 21:31)
What OS and iTunes version did you use when you got 125 kbps?
WinXP SP3 with a lot of other stuff, Itunes 7.7.0.43.
BTW: WinXP SP2 clean install, then upgrade to SP3, then install Itunes 7.7.0.43 => 207 kbps. I installed also WMP11 and Aug'2008 DirectX but it didn't change the bitrate.
1 kbps more or less is not important, I'd say (could be caused by rounding). I find it very, very strange that your previous test was also carried out under XP.
What do you think about this:
I used the seven different quality settings (iTunes 8 / XP). The screenshot is from EncSpot.
My previous experience about a year ago was different:
I used the seven different quality settings (iTunes 8 / XP). The screenshot is from EncSpot.
My previous experience about a year ago was different:
QUOTE(Alex B @ Sep 9 2007, 17:24)
... Since you mentioned the iTunes' quality settings we could start with iTunes. I tested some additional iTunes options:
Surprisingly the quality options have almost no effect to the encoding speeds. The very small encoding time differences may be caused by other things as well (I did only one pass). I wonder if these settings do anything, even though there was a very small bitrate increase.
The Smart Encoding Adjustments and Filter Frequencies Below 10 Hz options seem to slightly affect the speed so perhaps they actually do something.
Surprisingly the quality options have almost no effect to the encoding speeds. The very small encoding time differences may be caused by other things as well (I did only one pass). I wonder if these settings do anything, even though there was a very small bitrate increase.
The Smart Encoding Adjustments and Filter Frequencies Below 10 Hz options seem to slightly affect the speed so perhaps they actually do something.
I'd guess that for some reason iTunes does not always use the set options correctly.
It's unfortunate that no one said anything when I posted my iTunes 7.4.0.28 results a year ago. Though probably not many of us actively use iTunes for MP3 encoding or have experimented with its MP3 settings.
If the Apple developers would have followed what happened here they could have reacted.
It's unfortunate that no one said anything when I posted my iTunes 7.4.0.28 results a year ago. Though probably not many of us actively use iTunes for MP3 encoding or have experimented with its MP3 settings.
If the Apple developers would have followed what happened here they could have reacted.
I GET IT!
Dualcore processor => 125 kbps.
Dualcore processor with 1 core disabled => 207 kbps.
I just added "/numproc=1" switch to boot.ini and rebooted. (Setting affinity through Task manager won't help).
Dualcore processor => 125 kbps.
Dualcore processor with 1 core disabled => 207 kbps.
I just added "/numproc=1" switch to boot.ini and rebooted. (Setting affinity through Task manager won't help).
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