Full Version: New Pioneer burner to make EAC and co. unnecessary?
According to a news article I found on CdrInfo.com, Pioneer is going to release a new 20x DVD burner that has a feature for accurately reading audio CDs. Wondering how well the unit will perform.
Until i see some actual review of that feature and not just marketing talk, the motto is...
I want one! *drooooolll*
Note: I edited a few unnessesary things out.
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In addition, the drive features the "PURE READ" function, to compensate the noise introduced when a scratched or dusty audio CD is reproduced. The idea behind PURE READ is to try and correct damaged sectors which are read from the Audio-CD. The feature re-reads damaged sectors to see if it can recover them. When a sector that is difficult to read is detected, the laser tries to re-read the damaged sector. Not just re-reading the sector, but the drive will actually adjust its read parameters (I.E. higher or lower laser power and the angle of the laser beam are adjusted) to try and get the best-possible read-back from that damaged sector. An algorithm calculates the "best" or "average" result it achieves, and that information (I.E. the best-possible result) is then used as part of the final ripped file. Re-reading of damaged sectors can be up to a maximum of 40 times.
Note: I edited a few unnessesary things out.
QUOTE(Sebastian Mares @ Nov 20 2007, 11:17) 
According to a news article I found on CdrInfo.com, Pioneer is going to release a new 20x DVD burner that has a feature for accurately reading audio CDs. Wondering how well the unit will perform.
I must say it looks interesting. Hopefully it will deliver as well. Does anyone know if there are other drives which has similar features or is this the first drive to enter the market?
This device could be candidate for replacing my broken-on-arrival Plextor. 
These loud names make the actual hardware look cheap though.
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PURE READ
These loud names make the actual hardware look cheap though.
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An algorithm calculates the "best" or "average" result it achieves, and that information (I.E. the best-possible result) is then used as part of the final ripped file.
"best" does not equal "average"!!!
Seems like it's going to increase the chances of getting consistent errors if you ask me.
Maybe it will have PURE READ button on it, accessible only from the rear
I'm quite worried about another feature, the PowerRead.
** In a standard PC environment, DVD-Video is treated as 1 type of data, therefore, if a section is deemed unreadable, playback will stop. With PowerRead, the user-experience is similar to the AV side, making it possible to play the remainder of the disc. **
It would allow errors slip through, downgrading DVDs to the audio CD level of error detection.
Let's hope the Pioneer's "QuietDrive utility" is not graphically bloated, so that one can quickly adjust these advanced functions.
Now that Plextor is no more, there is a need for better-than-average drives.
** In a standard PC environment, DVD-Video is treated as 1 type of data, therefore, if a section is deemed unreadable, playback will stop. With PowerRead, the user-experience is similar to the AV side, making it possible to play the remainder of the disc. **
It would allow errors slip through, downgrading DVDs to the audio CD level of error detection.
Let's hope the Pioneer's "QuietDrive utility" is not graphically bloated, so that one can quickly adjust these advanced functions.
Now that Plextor is no more, there is a need for better-than-average drives.
QUOTE(j7n @ Nov 21 2007, 10:27)
Now that Plextor is no more, there is a need for better-than-average drives.
Within the last few years, Plextor DAE performance has not exactly been better than average.
QUOTE(greynol @ Nov 20 2007, 17:17)
QUOTE
An algorithm calculates the "best" or "average" result it achieves, and that information (I.E. the best-possible result) is then used as part of the final ripped file.
"best" does not equal "average"!!!
Seems like it's going to increase the chances of getting consistent errors if you ask me.
Yes, this drive could be a PITA for secure ripping. Although the part where it said that it adjust its read parameters (I.E. higher or lower laser power and the angle of the laser beam are adjusted) sounds interesting. But it's a wasted effort if this feature can't be controlled by software, and everything happens automagically "in the black box".
I hope they're aware of the conistent error problem and the read parameter adjustment is actually minimizing the chance of that (for example by introducing radonmess when adjusting the parameters) and not maximizing it (by using a very limited adjustment strategy).
QUOTE(Fandango @ Nov 21 2007, 10:40)
Yes, this drive could be a PITA for secure ripping.
As Sebastian put it, the drive will make secure ripping unnecessary. The problem is that "secure" seems to be moving farther away from accurate. It's bad enough that so many people mistakenly believe that getting the same result twice means it was accurate. Now a drive that averages bad data and calls the result good???
QUOTE(Sebastian Mares @ Nov 20 2007, 02:17)
According to a news article I found on CdrInfo.com, Pioneer is going to release a new 20x DVD burner that has a feature for accurately reading audio CDs. Wondering how well the unit will perform.
It isn't always possible to get a 'perfect' read. Striving for the 'best' read even when 'perfect' isn't possible is a laudable objective.
QUOTE(woody_woodward @ Nov 21 2007, 14:39)
It isn't always possible to get a 'perfect' read. Striving for the 'best' read even when 'perfect' isn't possible is a laudable objective.
I agree, but hopefully this won't be done in such a way as to conceal less than perfect reads from secure ripping programs.
Well, as far as I understood, the audio CD related feature is controllable. Not sure about the DVD related function.
it that's true i'm gonna regret just buying 2 samsung sh-s203b drives 
Sounds definitely interesting, hopefully it is not a PR trick...
I might buy one....
I might buy one....
QUOTE(xmixahlx @ Nov 22 2007, 22:01)
it that's true i'm gonna regret just buying 2 samsung sh-s203b drives
Why? I thought Samsung made good drives.
Then again, as a linux user you'll probably benefit from such a drive seeing as though the ripping solutions aren't as good unless you're also using Wine.
Still, diversity in drives is the way to go. There is no one superlative drive that is able to get through all types of disc problems and I doubt this is going to change even with this new technology by Pioneer.
Maybe you should have only bought one Samsung.
even if it has accurate reading...i would still use eac/dbpoweramp and accuraterip to know that my rips were good
QUOTE(ArtMustHurt @ Nov 23 2007, 09:04)
even if it has accurate reading...i would still use eac/dbpoweramp and accuraterip to know that my rips were good
Absolutely! Even if these drives render EAC, dBpoweramp and the like ineffective, AccurateRip will still be the best way to confirm a rip.
I would really like to know if it supports over-reading and HTOA.
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I would really like to know if it supports over-reading and HTOA.
Is there any objective technical reason why most drives cannot read beyond what it believes is the start and end of disc? In the past one was required to hot swap Minidiscs without the device noticing in order to read the "unpartitioned" space, this trick also had to be employed for reading some protected game console CDs. But, remember that we are using a Personal Computer, for god's sake – where everything should be possible.
QUOTE(greynol @ Nov 21 2007, 18:32)
Within the last few years, Plextor DAE performance has not exactly been better than average.
True ... the last real good Plextor drive for DAE was the original 2003 Premium CDRW. Everything that came afterwards was worse in terms of DAE.
From what I've read even the Premium wasn't as good as earlier models, but I might not be remembering correctly.
The PX-230A is still a quite good reader - even better than Premium 2, but it's not a true Plextor.
QUOTE(greynol @ Nov 23 2007, 23:55)
From what I've read even the Premium wasn't as good as earlier models, but I might not be remembering correctly.
My Premium 1 (in conjunction with Plextools) ripped audio CD's that no other drive could rip ... and I own a lot of drives (~ 50 still operational units), including older Plextor models like the famous PX-40TS or PX-W2410A.
QUOTE(JeanLuc @ Nov 24 2007, 13:26)
My Premium 1 (in conjunction with Plextools) ripped audio CD's that no other drive could rip
Were you able to verify these rips with a secondary source?
QUOTE(greynol @ Nov 24 2007, 21:51)
Were you able to verify these rips with a secondary source?
Not exactly because no other drive could rip the disc ... EAC hung up on me and Plextools Pro has never supported AccurateRip ... but I, of course, did a second Plextools rip on the same drive that turned out to be bit-identical to the first rip in that special case. Listening also did not reveal any bad spots so it was just fine with me.
I actually meant against a different copy of the same disc (or with AccurateRip which I have used successfully to test non-EAC and non-dBpoweramp rips); identical rips of the same disc aren't terribly compelling.
Anyhow, not having owned a Premium myself, I'll take your word that they are better than the PX-7XX series.
Anyhow, not having owned a Premium myself, I'll take your word that they are better than the PX-7XX series.
QUOTE(greynol @ Nov 24 2007, 22:07)
identical rips of the same disc aren't terribly compelling.
I surely have encountered some consistent read errors in my life (especially with CDS200) ... but from my experience and opinion, their percentage of occurrence is nowhere near that of read errors leading to random values.
As for my special case, the ripped CD extremely rare, out of print and not present in the AR database.
I guess I'll just have to live with it.
QUOTE(greynol @ Nov 24 2007, 17:07)
Anyhow, not having owned a Premium myself, I'll take your word that they are better than the PX-7XX series.
I have been fanatically happy with my PX-712SA. It is the best ripper I have. I have a 708 laying around that I need to try. I really want to give the 716 a go, but dont have one yet. The 7xx series seems to be very good and certainly outperforms my 2 premiums.
Differing experiences are always interesting to read.
I've found LG as well as Lite-On drives that perform better than my PX-716A.
@JeanLuc:
Errors do not cause drives to produce random results.
Short of verifying with a secondary source, how do you know when you've encountered a consistent error and when you haven't?
I've found LG as well as Lite-On drives that perform better than my PX-716A.
@JeanLuc:
Errors do not cause drives to produce random results.
Short of verifying with a secondary source, how do you know when you've encountered a consistent error and when you haven't?
QUOTE(greynol @ Nov 26 2007, 06:31)
@JeanLuc:
Errors do not cause drives to produce random results.
Which is not what I have written ... but I do know what you mean.
QUOTE(greynol @ Nov 26 2007, 06:31)
Short of verifying with a secondary source, how do you know when you've encountered a consistent error and when you haven't?
My experience with ~1500 ripped discs during the last 2 years (using both AR and different drives) lead to that rather personal (but nonetheless sufficient for me) conclusion.
QUOTE(JeanLuc @ Nov 25 2007, 22:52)
QUOTE(greynol @ Nov 26 2007, 06:31)
Errors do not cause drives to produce random results.
Which is not what I have written ... but I do know what you mean.QUOTE(JeanLuc @ Nov 25 2007, 22:52)
QUOTE(greynol @ Nov 26 2007, 06:31)
Short of verifying with a secondary source, how do you know when you've encountered a consistent error and when you haven't?
My experience with ~1500 ripped discs during the last 2 years (using both AR and different drives) lead to that rather personal (but nonetheless sufficient for me) conclusion.
>Lite-On
For testing I have an Lite-ON Super write (20a1p), it is poor with scratched cds, one cd I call medium scratches the drive does not recognize the cd, stuck in a loop trying to read TOC. Most drives only complain with a heavy scratched cd.
For testing I have an Lite-ON Super write (20a1p), it is poor with scratched cds, one cd I call medium scratches the drive does not recognize the cd, stuck in a loop trying to read TOC. Most drives only complain with a heavy scratched cd.
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