--alt-preset insane –m s
Will this work?

I tried a few different Lame settings to encode some neuro-audio subliminal soundtracks, and I’ve yet to find one that will match up to the originals. Something’s just not sounding right and I’m suspecting that it’s the joint stereo that is “muffling” (sorry for lack of a better description) the precise sound patterns of this type of soundtracks. All other music sounded fine at –-ape or even –-aps.

As per the recommendation from another user here, I’ve been mostly using the –-aps preset. I don’t know if by adding the –m s command will work so I thought I seek some inputs from you kind folks first before I run into more roadblocks!

Just in case if it makes a difference, I just switched from 3.93.1 to 3.90.2.

Did you do any blind testing to verify that there is actually a difference and that the "muffled" sound is not simply the placebo effect?

http://www.pcabx.com
http://www.kikeg.arrakis.es/winabx/
http://www.ff123.net/abchr/abchr.html

I suppose that a placebo effect could exist here. If so, it must be my apprehensive reaction knowing that the encoding that's making use of a correlation between the both channels may also be affecting the “binaural beat” frequency that these soundtracks produced specifically for each individual ear. You could say I have done a non-official “blind test” for I’ve listened to the encoded soundtrack for a whole meditation session...with eyes closed and all! Some sounds that were subtly different to each ear previously had become somewhat conjoined in the middle.

Accepted that I'm not an expert in Lame, I could only make an educated guess that the correlation made between channels must’ve compromised to some degree the integrity of the individual channel. This is mainly my concern. Again, I have no problem with all my other encodings. It’s just these that I’m trying very hard to get it not just “sounding” accurate but is accurate (to its potential limit). I hope by turning off the joint Stereo may help.

Please share your thoughts!

This is an indication that you are likely to imagine the result. The joint-stereo mode of Lame (middle/side stereo) does not change the stereo imaging.
What you are describing is an effect of another joint stereo method called intensity stereo, which is not used by Lame.

I would just simply go for lossless, if I were you ... MPEG-1 Layer 3 is, per definition, a lossy format which will sound different than the original (with using the alt presets perhaps not in a tonal, but in a spatial way ... which would be what you are experiencing)

Regarded as standalone or in a predictive audio codec (like FLAC or Monkeys Audio), Mid/Sideband encoding is lossless per definition as well as long as you do not compress the resulting MS signal with a lossy encoder ... because IMHO the original MS signal cannot be reconstructed to the original uncompressed MS signal during playback ...

BTW ... if you can clearly ABX the differences between original wav and mp3 at --alt-preset insane, it would be very useful if you could upload a test sample for the LAME developers ...

Actually, the binaural beat is not a tone produced directly to the ear but is a difference tone as the brain puts together the 2 tones the ears are hearing. This beat has a very intimate relationship with the frequency and amplitude of the wave form in our brains...

Sorry, it's late!

From the technical point of view, it is a pcm audio file at first that needs to be analyzed ... for further investigation.

BTW: Do you use headphones for listening ?

Thanks for the quick response



Looks like I dug a hole for myself there! But I really do hear a slight difference!



What I don't understand is the actual difference between -m s and -m j. There must be something being compromised in the difference modes.



Yes, headphones are required for these "mind-altering" soundtracks. I use a Sennheiser HD580.

Any proper ABX results?

Well, it's quite possible.
Doing an ABX is not the end of the world you know.. it's usually a very interesting, a bit challenging and thrilling experience
If you don't want to do it, you can provide two <= 30 sec. samples (mp3 & original) of the exact same passage, for other people to try it.


Well actually yes, it's a compromise. You can sacrifice a bit of resolution in the difference of the left/right channels, which allows toimprove the resolution of the fundamental sound (which means that the downmixed MONO version of the compressed signal is now closer to the MONO version of the original).

As Gabriel said, the magnitude of the difference between LEFT and RIGHT channels, will NOT be increased nor decreased in the encoding.. so, statistically the amount of separation between the two channels should be the same.


Very good stuff B)

OMG.. I'm impressed by my own explanation

There might be some usefull information in this thread:
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....=ST&f=15&t=4391

I believe the nature of how binaural beats work makes them difficult to abx, since they might sound the same, but the effect is decreased. I don't know enough about these things to make any qualified comments though.

They can be ABX'ed, but not the usual way. Generate some wav files, some them original and some compressed and de-compressed. Randomize them, and then use them as usual. See what you perceive with each file, and after listening to all or several of them, see if what you perceived correlates with which were the real files. I think that placebo effect is very good fooling this type of inconscious or subliminal perception, many times it has a lot of influence on how you "feel" things.

There's a "brainwave synchronizer" effect in CEP. Seems like this works at least similar. So far I've done a short test with a sine tone - it applies some kind of bumping. However, IMO it's possible that beside this *consciously* noticable difference, some part of the change applied to the signal that affects your brainwaves is not hearable. So it's also possible that joint stereo, even if not ABX'able in the common way, changes or destroys the brainwave effect. Here's a part of CEP's help about this effect. Maybe this helps to get an idea if/how much joint stereo could change brain wave effect:




As KikeG said, even if ABX doesn't work there are still possibilites for blind testing. You could use EEG for this. Or - another idea - use "brainwaved" music that makes you fall asleep and test how much time it takes ...

Thank you for the feedbacks and all the useful links. It’s been thought-provoking for one and educational for another. Prior to coming here, I didn’t even know the acronyms of ABX, CEP, PCM... tho I still don’t know what pcm is!


I see that some of my pains had already been expressed by other users. I wonder if anyone had any success with the above setting.



This is how I feel too and that’s why I’m still seeking a solution to my lossy encoding quandary. Should I use the –alt-presets and add the –ms overriding switch? If so, which one?

--alt-preset insane –m s
--alt-preset extreme –m s
--alt-preset standard –m s
- or -
-b 320 -m d -p -q 0 --noath -k (no idea what this does!!)


It would be my pleasure! Where could I upload the 5MB sample wav file?


I just learned what's ABX today! I think, however, using an EEG, as Tigre had suggested, might prove to be easier for me! You’re welcome to play with the sample file after someone tells me where I can upload it. It will definitely be a change from ABXing “just” music. You may even have a "mind-altering" life experience!

I'll tell you:
-b320 => min bitrate 320 kbps. OK.
-m d => unknown/invalid stereo mode ? NOT DESIRED.
-p => error protection. REALLY USELESS.
-q 0 => max algorithm quality. EVERYONE USES THIS.
--noath => disable ATH (absolute threshold of hearing). BAD IDEA !
-k => full bandwidth. WILL LOWER THE PERCEIVED SOUND QUALITY IN 99% OF CASES !

Conclusion = Dibrom's "--alt-preset insane":
- is way better
- takes the same space
- has been extensively tested
- is the highest quality setting for any mp3 encoding right now.

By the way (regarding --alt-preset insane -m s) ...
You really don't want to lower the quality from 160..320kbps per channel, to 160kbps per channel, do you ?

But oh, that's right, maybe it's enough if you encode pure sines without transients.. but then again, 32kbps full stereo is overkill for this already

Just my two cents.
Cheers

I don't think that everyone uses this, -q 0 have quality problems..
(-q 2 is used instead of -q 0)

This seems very interesting...

Where can I lay my hands on one of this BrainWave synchronizer tracks?

I would love to have something like this to try. Can I possibly generate a wave file that will increase my state of awareness to think more efficiently, let's say, during work hours? We can use headphones at work, and that would make my life probably better...

Please send me some links on the topic

Oh ! really..
Thanks, I didn't know that.

I know what you mean: You listen to music while working, get distracted ... but now you can say: "Of courese I listen to music, and yes, it has to be that loud! U know, it's BrainWaved music - I work much better with it!".

Couldn't resist ... now serious: You can try CoolEditPro as I mentioned above to create "brainwaved" music from music you like and experiment with it.

Links:
eegspectrum.com
futurehealth.org
Brainwave Generator

Actually, my intention is a lot simpler... Getting something that will keep my brain active after lunch! I'd love to decrease the amount of coffee I drink! B)

I'll check out those links. Thanks!

In addition to the links provided by Tigre, you could try the following, too. They do have ready-to-use soundtracks for what you’re looking for.

Hemi-Sync

Monroe Institue


Complicated! If only there’s a lossless codec that provides the compatibility like mp3s, I’ll switch over in a sec!!! Until then… guess I’ll just have to stick with –alt-presets for regular music and Audio Master for the mind-altering CDs!

B)

Audio Master is what? Original wav file?

Audio Master is a recording system used in Yamaha CD writers. I'm not sure if other brands have implemented this technology. IMHO, it’s one of the best things out there for burning audio CDs. I have music CD-Rs burned with conventional write methods (i.e. DAO & TAO) that just won’t play in my Nakamichi. Using the A.M. method, however, the same unplayable CD-Rs used as originals will produce perfectly playable CDs. Weird, eh?

That Audio Master technology I think has already been mentioned in here... As far as I remember, it did pretty much nothing, and was considered more of just marketing than anything else...

About being able to copy cds that don't work and finding that the copies do, that's not surprising at all... And I think it has nothing to do with the Audio Master thingie... I have done similar things many times... and I don't have a Yamaha burner.

Audo Master burns at 1.4 meters per second instead of 1.2 meters per second. This should reduce jitter by a factor equal to 1.4/1.2=1.17.
Here a re the real results : http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/Articles/S...+Tests&Series=0
Sometimes less, sometimes more.

As long as all errors are corrected, it has no effect. It helps with players that read CDRs with difficulties.

I would like to see Dibroms links in a sticky thread.

Could that be fixed. The links are great and many newbees asks about listening test.

/ Alexander

The links in the second post ? He took them from a sticky thread : the FAQ

Plans for a newbie FAQ in the portal : http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....=ST&f=25&t=6209

Hups.

Sorry.
Of course sticky in Hydrogen Audio not MP3 part since blind test is format independent.
Didn't think of this. That's why I had hard time to find the info also.


Hey this is (will be) heaven for newbies.
The newbies will get a nice overview and start point with this. VERY GOOD WORK all of you.

Very Sorry. I Have totally missed this though and I'm probably not the only one not looking outside MP3 part when needed as a newbie here or having trouble finding the well spread info.

Again thanks a lot for your help Pio2001

/ Alexander

Doesn't the --nssafejoint switch that is enabled in --alt-preset std and above fix 99% the middle / side stereo issues? I thought that the -ms switch became obsolete / un-necessary with the creation of --nssafejoint?

haha, i asked this same question a year ago:
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....&f=15&t=683&hl=

rumraisen, goto
http://ff123.net/abchr/abchr.html

its fun and interesting to use this testing app.


jeanluc, your picture/avatar/whatever is sickening.



juglesh

I think you got him wrong - he was saying that an Audio Master burned cd-r is the only way for playing perfectly in his standalone cd-player, even if the data is taken from normally-burned cd-r. This is expected behavior, because the binary data isn't the problem in the first place.

He was not talking about copy-protected cd's.

Actually, what I understood is that he was surprised that some audio CDs that his Nakamichi can't read, can be used as originals to make newly burned CDs that play OK in his Nakamichi.

For me that's not surprising at all, and even though Audio Master technology is probably helping, I have done similar things in the past, without using Yamaha burner/ Audio Master thingy...

I have run into several standalone CD players that just refuse to play burned CDs except for certain brands... The solution was simple: take the CD you want to listen to, burned in a brand your player doesn't like, put it in the computer, rip it (with EAC, of course), and burn the WAVs to a "safe" brand of CDs... Magic! It works!

So, even though I believed Audio Master to be marketing rather than actual benefits, and now I stand corrected (I still think the benefits are marginal, and I will try to get rid of any cd player that refuses to work with commonly burned cds...), the process that surprised him still doesn't surprise me, and that was the main point in my post Maybe he was using a brand that his Nakamichi likes better than the first one, and maybe Audio Master did make a difference... But I would think there are ways to get his Nakamichi to play burned CDs, even if you don't have a Yamaha burner...

And I wasn't talking about copy-protected cds...

I thought that maybe we should get back on topic a bit...

From the FAQ at www.bwgen.com:


Note that it says that both channels should be kept independent. To a non-educated reader, this would mean that Joint Stereo is then forbidden.

However, the Joint Stereo that you can find in LAME --alt-preset standard (or better) is definitely reliable and keeps a perfect stereo image in sounds a lot more complex than these ones. I would trust it without hesitation.

In any case, try the method they describe to test for yourself, but I think you will be satisfied.