Full Version: New LAME Version allowing up to 500 kbps.
I was wondering if LAME is really stuck at 320 kbps. We know that there is the free-format switch. Is it possible for someone to implement a new VBR system that would have samples in the range of 32k to 500kbps? Would hardware players understand this new feature? Would the files be playable? What would it take to it?
QUOTE(Bourne @ Jan 4 2008, 13:43) 
I was wondering if LAME is really stuck at 320 kbps. We know that there is the free-format switch. Is it possible for someone to implement a new VBR system that would have samples in the range of 32k to 500kbps? Would hardware players understand this new feature? Would the files be playable? What would it take to it?
Free-format files are necessarily only CBR, so no this is not possible.
Two issues:
1. Why?
2. 320 kbps is the standard. Above that, is against standard.
1. Why?
2. 320 kbps is the standard. Above that, is against standard.
101
If LAME reached 500kbps it would solve issues caused by the 320kbps limitation, which OGG, AAC and MPC don't necessarely suffer....
Is this a joke, or is there a serious desire for daily and mobile use (I mention this because mobile players are where lossless is of questionable use) for bitrates this high? If you need that much accuracy, then use lossless. Even 500k doesn't seem high enough to eliminate inherent issues in lossy encoding.
it might not elimitate issues concerning lossy codecs, but it would be just another step for LAME...
QUOTE(Bourne @ Jan 4 2008, 12:43)
I was wondering if LAME is really stuck at 320 kbps. We know that there is the free-format switch. Is it possible for someone to implement a new VBR system that would have samples in the range of 32k to 500kbps? Would hardware players understand this new feature? Would the files be playable? What would it take to it?
The problem with 'free format', and why it's not so widely supported, is that there's no way to specify the bitrate. A decoder must either be told ahead of time how many bytes each frame contains, or guess a frame's size by looking for the next MPEG sync word. As you can imagine, this is problematic.
QUOTE(Bourne @ Jan 4 2008, 17:01)
If LAME reached 500kbps it would solve issues caused by the 320kbps limitation, which OGG, AAC and MPC don't necessarely suffer....
the so called 'problem samples' that can be ABX'ed by hardcore audiophiles even at 320kbps, is mostly due to a failure in Lame's psymodel and wouldn't necessarily be solved by increasing the bitrate.
At 500kb/s you might as well just add another 200kb/s and go lossless.
QUOTE(slks @ Jan 5 2008, 14:46)
At 500kb/s you might as well just add another 200kb/s and go lossless.
We are talking about a more robust VBR. MPC can use up to 1300k if needed in the standard profile. MP3 could do the same and use 512k frames or more with difficult samples giving higher quality.
According to the mp3 specs, freeformat streams must be CBR only.
QUOTE(Jojo @ Jan 5 2008, 02:07)
the so called 'problem samples' that can be ABX'ed by hardcore audiophiles even at 320kbps, is mostly due to a failure in Lame's psymodel and wouldn't necessarily be solved by increasing the bitrate.
The same argument can be used for going from V2 - V0 and to 320kbps. Just different lines in the sand for different people. But to be honest, I too don't see the point.
QUOTE(Bourne @ Jan 4 2008, 19:43)
I was wondering if LAME is really stuck at 320 kbps. We know that there is the free-format switch. Is it possible for someone to implement a new VBR system that would have samples in the range of 32k to 500kbps? Would hardware players understand this new feature? Would the files be playable? What would it take to it?
The overwhelming advantage of mp3 is its universal usability. This goes away when using freeformat.
Transform codecs like mp3 are most attractive in their usual bitrate range below 300 kbps. Lame is close to perfection there when using very high quality settings, and I guess we can expect further improvements to come.
When allowing for a higher bitrate IMO codecs like lossyWAV+FLAC/TAK/wavPack or wavPack lossy are more attractive than transform codecs. With them we have a clean and simple signal path (no subband coding and approximate transformation into the frequency domain, no psy model which can have weaknesses), and we can use a quality which seamlessly scales up to lossless, with the sweetspot being at ~400 kbps.
shadowking got the idea right... it's impressive how people showed up with stones in their hands just because I used the "freeformat" word... all I meant was a more robust VBR mode, and just another step for LAME...
QUOTE(Bourne @ Jan 5 2008, 11:58)
shadowking got the idea right... it's impressive how people showed up with stones in their hands just because I used the "freeformat" word... all I meant was a more robust VBR mode, and just another step for LAME...
Bourne, I really don't think people are out to get you. If Gabriel and others are telling you that freeformat is for CBR, you'd be wise to believe them.QUOTE
I was wondering if LAME is really stuck at 320 kbps. Is it possible for someone to implement a new VBR system that would have samples in the range of 32k to 500kbps?
The bitrate for an mp3 frame is determined by an index value in the header, limiting MP3 frames to the well-known pre-defined bitrates. It would be impossible to have an arbitrary bitrate (e.g. 500kbps). The bit reservoir (frame start offset) allows for data to span multiple frames, which gives MP3 encoders more precise bitrate control with VBR.
QUOTE
Bourne, I really don't think people are out to get you. If Gabriel and others are telling you that freeformat is for CBR, you'd be wise to believe them.
It would go away beyond "nonstandard" and probably a mostly academic exercise, but free-format MP3 frames combined with a container file format like MP4 could effectively be VBR. This is because the container format would store the frame size values.
The reason that free-format MP3 must be CBR is that it the frame sizes must either be given to the decoder out-of-band (in which case it's much easier to have a constant value), or the decoder must guess (and the guessing would only work if the frame sizes were consistent).
MP3 frame sizes are calculated based on a formula involving the mpeg version, layer, bitrate, sample rate, crc flag and padding flag. Free-format is signalled by a bitrate index value of "0" and so the exact bitrate is unknown. Since the exact bitrate is unknown, the frame size is also unknown.
I ain't talking about freeformat as it is right now...
QUOTE(Bourne @ Jan 6 2008, 18:36)
I ain't talking about freeformat as it is right now...
That would essentially be a new MP3 based format without any existing decoder support. There's no sense in developing such a format because better, supported (more or less), VBR lossy options without a 320 kbps top bitrate limit already exist, like Vorbis, MPC and AAC.
QUOTE(Bourne @ Jan 6 2008, 17:36)
I ain't talking about freeformat as it is right now...
An MP3 with more than 320kbps is freeformat. So you ARE talking about freeformat, as explained several times by different people in this thread.
QUOTE(Bourne @ Jan 5 2008, 12:58)
shadowking got the idea right... it's impressive how people showed up with stones in their hands just because I used the "freeformat" word... all I meant was a more robust VBR mode, and just another step for LAME...
You keep saying that it would be a step for Lame. I agree but it would be an unnecessary step for Lame. If you are in a situation where you need more than 320kbps then you might as well just go with lossless. I can understand you wanting to use a higher bitrate mp3 file but the practicality of it just isn't there. You first need more hardware and software support for 320kbps+ mp3 files before you can start talking about development of a VBR implementation in such high bitrates. Hence, any freeformat development isn't needed as we can't widely play the files. Hell, FLAC has greater hardware and software support that freeformat encoded mp3's. Besides, what type of listening situation requires a 500kbps VBR mp3 file? If a audio flaw is there at 320kbps then it will probably be there at all bitrates, it is just a problem sample for Lame mp3.
Bourne seems to know that MP3 with more than 320 kbps is freeformat. He is asking for some new(?) free format of varying frame sizes. Imho it's possible to extend a mp3 decoder to handle frames of unknown lengths. But there are imho no real good reasons to do it.
PS: I've committed into CVS some old patch I had lying around. It allows you to get a VBR encode packed into a high bitrate freeformat stream: lame -V0 -b600 --freeformat x.wav x.mp3
It's useful when you want to know what happens with VBR encodes, if there are almost no bitrate limitations (There are still some format specific bitrate limitations even over 600 kbps).
This is not what Bourne is asking for.
example: blibs.wav
PS: I've committed into CVS some old patch I had lying around. It allows you to get a VBR encode packed into a high bitrate freeformat stream: lame -V0 -b600 --freeformat x.wav x.mp3
It's useful when you want to know what happens with VBR encodes, if there are almost no bitrate limitations (There are still some format specific bitrate limitations even over 600 kbps).
This is not what Bourne is asking for.
example: blibs.wav
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robert@sly:~/Audio/lame-080102> ./frontend/lame -V0 --freeformat -b600 --quiet ../testsongs/blips.wav x.mp3
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QUOTE(robert @ Jan 6 2008, 22:26)
I've committed into CVS some old patch I had lying around. It allows you to get a VBR encode packed into a high bitrate freeformat stream: lame -V0 -b600 --freeformat x.wav x.mp3
By the way: I can compress these mp3 files with winrar to 40...45% of their original size.
So, the size of these .rar files doesn't differ much from mp3s encoded with plain -V0 option.
Any player capable to play freeformat from archives? foobar2000 refuses to do it.
(of course I don't think this is of practical use)
QUOTE(lvqcl @ Jan 6 2008, 17:01)
QUOTE(robert @ Jan 6 2008, 22:26)
I've committed into CVS some old patch I had lying around. It allows you to get a VBR encode packed into a high bitrate freeformat stream: lame -V0 -b600 --freeformat x.wav x.mp3
By the way: I can compress these mp3 files with winrar to 40...45% of their original size.
So, the size of these .rar files doesn't differ much from mp3s encoded with plain -V0 option.
Any player capable to play freeformat from archives? foobar2000 refuses to do it.
(of course I don't think this is of practical use)
This probably means that the encoder had no use for the extra bits and filled up the frames with zeros.
QUOTE(Garf @ Jan 6 2008, 14:12)
QUOTE(Bourne @ Jan 6 2008, 17:36)
I ain't talking about freeformat as it is right now...
An MP3 with more than 320kbps is freeformat. So you ARE talking about freeformat, as explained several times by different people in this thread.
I'm not sure, but I think hes trying to ask why no one has invented some new format thats exactly the same as MP3, except with more frame sizes.
If so, I think the answer would be "use AAC".
QUOTE(pdq @ Jan 7 2008, 05:11)
This probably means that the encoder had no use for the extra bits and filled up the frames with zeros.
Of course. With V0 quality setting most of the frames don't need to be so large as in freeformat 600kbps.
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