Hi guys. My Sony MP3 CD Player (D-NE330) bit the dust, after dying a slow death. It was nearly always skipping even when stationary (and the disc wasn't spinning), and rarely skipping in the exact same place twice, and the navigation almost never worked right. I bought a D-NF430 this past Tuesday, but this week I plan to take it back to the store because it has the same problems.

So I desperately need an mp3 player, like SOON! I've ruled out CD/DVD based MP3 players because none of them have the combination of features, portability, durability, build quality, etc, that I'm looking for. But.. should I get a HDD or Flash player?

In a nutshell, I'm considering the Archos 504 (older firmware), Vosonic VP8360 (has replaceable hard drive; Wolverine ESP, stateside "equivalent?", seems to not), Cowon D2 (flash with SD slot), Creative Zen (flash with SD slot), Archos 405 (SD slot, but only 2GB onboard), or Archos 605 WiFi 4GB (w/SD slot). Read further for more details... (Max budget is as low as possible... I'm thinking like $200 or so, but I gotta figure out a few things.)


In either case, the storage should be replaceable / upgradeable. For a HDD player, that means the HDD should be user-replaceable, and for a flash player, it must have an expansion slot (CF or SD (and NOT mini or micro SD)).
Also, UMS support is required, meaning it's recognized as a removable hard drive by Windows (I'm using XP), and does NOT require 3rd-party software for file transfer.


Possible flash players (I'd like at least 8 or 16GB onboard):
Archos 405 (has SD slot, but only 2GB onboard)
Archos 605 WiFi (SD slot, but only 4GB onboard. Also, if I get a player that's as large as a HDD-based player (that uses a 2.5" (not 1.8") HDD), then I either want a HD included or a place to put one.)
Cowon D2 (SD slot & touchscreen, but manual says it only supports 5000 files)
Creative Zen (SD slot, but can't transfer files from internal flash to SD card, and I think there was something else I didn't quite like about it but I don't remember exactly what.)


Possible HDD players:
Archos 504 (with older firmware - newer ones break the ability to swap out hard drives)
Vosonic VP8360 (the manual for this one actually gives hard drive replacement instructions)
I'd also consider the Wolverine ESP, but I believe it's more expensive, and I don't know if the hard drive is replaceable. (It otherwise seems to be identical to the Vosonic unit.)

One possiblity I'm looking into for a HDD-based unit, is getting a flash card to 44-pin 2.5" IDE adapter. I know of some units that have 2 CF slots on them, and I saw one online that had 4 SD slots (but unfortunately didn't support SDHC).

A couple things... the requirement to be able to upgrade memory is partially so I can accomodate my sub-$200 budget. I'm willing to settle for 4GB (preferably 8GB) of built-in flash, or a 20GB HDD, so I can stay within my initial budget. (Later when I could afford it, I'd plan to buy more memory, for example a 16GB flash card, a 250+GB HDD, a IDE to CF (or SD) adapter and a card, etc.)
(Also, for a HDD unit, it would be so I don't have an expensive brick if the HDD should fail (although I hope the player is sturdy / shockproof enough to prevent the HDD from failing, in spite of being repeatedly baseball-like-pitched at the floor while it's operating.))


I know I said I had ruled out CD / DVD players, but that's because in my extensive research I couldn't find anything. However, if you guys can find me one that's as skip-free as a flash-based unit, built as tough as the Sony D-NS921F (one I had previously that was built like a tank and I only no longer have because it was stolen), reads mp3 files off of data DVD-R's (or + or RW or DL), is a portable/walkman CD player form factor (not the laptop type with the flip-up 7" screen that most DVD players have), and doesn't have some ridiculously low 999-track limit (on a CD player), and is under $140 shipped before rebates, please let me know.


I'm getting quite desperate here. Right now I don't have anything that works, but I don't want to make an unwise purchase. I really want to get a durable one, for example durable enough to outlast my Panasonic Shockwave radio/cassette player (which I suspect was manufactured probably around 1992 to 1994 or so), in spite of the likelihood that it'll get dropped from shoulder height onto hard surfaces several times a week or more, occasionally at speeds almost comparable to that of a baseball leaving an MLB pitcher's hand.
(Speaking of longevity, I have a portable radio or two from the 1980s or earlier that's still working fine. Also my family has some older home audio units (tape, phonograph, reel-to-reel, radio, etc) from as far back as probably the 1940s to 1960s or so, and as far as I know they're still pretty much functional. What's wrong with current electronics manufacturers these days that they can't design units as durable as these older gems? I can understand obsolescence, but I want to replace my player because something much better is available (for example jumping up to Blu-Ray from 1920s silent black-and-white movies), not because my "current" one broke!)

Well, precise electronic devices require careful handling - it is normal . If you are looking for the most durable portable player, then look for flash-based players without a screen (or with a small one) - like iPod nano or shuffle.

As for portable CD/MP3 player I can recommend my Panasonic SL-CT820 (they sell now 830s afaik) - a sleek high quality device with aluminium top. But there is still the 999 tracks limitation.

By the way, your requirements are weird a bit - do you have something special in mind? If so, you'd better tell the whole story, to receive some helpful recommendations.

The player that cries out to me is the Sansa E280. You can get it for $119 from Amazon.com and more importantly has a Rockbox port.

With the original firmware you can expand it using normal microSD cards (upto 4GB). When using rockbox though, it supports SDHC cards too, meaning you can go upto 16GB (bigger sizes are coming out).

I bought it because it has a rockbox port, but I have used the original firmware too and it seems pretty good. Rockbox has too many features that I need though: gapless playback, crossfeed, file based browsing (aswell as DB) and downloadable themes.

// EDIT. after rereading your OP, it says you want to replace the original memory. Isn't this a little bit OTT with respect to to flash memory? By the time you've reached the limitation of write-erase-cycle's the probability is that you'd have bought a new player. For HDD players though, I can understand you wanting to be able to replace it.

If you want a durable 8 GB and don't care about video, try an iPod nano. The last generation (all aluminum casing) is very durable, and I suspect the current one is as well. I've dropped and kicked mine too many time to count over the past 2+ years and it works perfectly and looks great. Good battery life too (18+ hours).

Note the current Sandisk Sansa E200 models are different hardware under the same name - v2s, do not (currently) work with Rockbox, but natively support microSDHC.

What "weird" requirements are you referring to? I did mention a few models I'm considering, but I'm open to other suggestions. I just want something that'll do what it's supposed to do, and isn't likely to break in the next several years at least, basically (and the ability to hold my entire uncompressed audio/video library would be nice, but I won't require that just yet).



Well... of course I wouldn't need to be able to replace the original flash, cause chances are I could use the SDHC or CF slot. As for the HDD, though, it MUST be user-replaceable.
As for buying a new player when the flash write/erase cycles is expired..... do you mean to tell me they don't make them as tough as they used to? :'(



I don't care about video right now, but I'll want that capability later. I would like at least a somewhat decent screen, though, which would obviously disqualify the ipod shuffle (not that it wasn't already disqualified for other reasons)



All the Sandisk ones I've seen support micro, not standard SD. If I get a flash player, I want a standard SD or CF slot or both.


So are any of the players I'm considering good ones?
Vosonic VP8360
Archos 504 (older firmware versions only)
Creative Zen
Cowon D2

The current generation nano does video, though the last generation (the one I have) does not. The one I have feels like it should be more durable - one piece aluminum case and smaller screen. But that could just be my imagination. I do know it has survived 2 years of less than loving care - ranging from callous indifference to outright abuse.

To be honest I haven't seen any DAPs that support standard SD cards for a while, I may be wrong but I doubt you're going to find one which supports SD card. Regarding the write/erase cycles, all flash memory has this limitation it just depends on how many cycles the memory you have is quoted to have. From what I read on Wikipedia, it says that most commercial memory is guaranteed for 100,000 write cycles for block 0, so I wouldn't worry too much about this aspect.

The Cowon D2 and Creative Zen both support standard size SD cards. The Vosonic VP8360 (also known as the Wolverine ESP, but I don't know if it has a user-replaceable HDD, even though it seems nearly identical) supports CF, SD, MS, and a couple other types.

I think you are forgetting the most likely point of failure - the battery.
The less popular player you buy, the harder time you will have finding a replacement battery.

I know of no HDD based digital audio player (though you appear to be also looking at big-screen media players) which does not have a replaceable hard drive. Even iPod hard drives are easy to replace.

Why 2.5" over 1.8" HDDs?
If you're looking for long-term replacement parts you want one with a SATA 2.5" drive, as PATA 2.5" drives are going bye-bye. The only advantage of PATA is (hopefully) the ability to replace the drive with a CF card. What happens though if the CF card doesn't support the ATA sleep command sent to it by the firmware (which is expecting a hard drive after all) and thus the CF card causes a firmware crash? This is just one of the many possibilities you must account for when trying to "future proof" such as you are.

Why SD over Micro/Mini SD?
Mico/Mini are physically (with adapter) and electronically compatible with SD.
I hope you're at least talking SDHC, SD won't be easy to find in a few years, greatly limits your upgrade options, and you are clearly looking for a player to last a long time.

Inboard flash:
You will not hit the write limits on the inboard flash in this lifetime. Do the math. Unless you are writing to it non-stop (not typical usage of a DAP, even one used as a portable hard drive) modern flash will outlast you.

Of the four you quoted - judging simply on my read of your demands for extreme future-proofness IMHO: (from least to most future-proof) (listing negatives)
Archos 504 = 2.5" PATA drive, uncommon battery, SD not SDHC.
Cowon D2 = uncommon battery, SD not SDHC, touchscreen.
Vosonic VP8360 = 2.5" PATA drive, (currently) common battery, SD not SDHC.
Creative Zen = uncommon battery.

Let's be honest - the ease of finding a replacement for your dead LiIon battery (it will die in a few short years) is directly related to the popularity of the player. iPods, Sansas, and anything which can use their batteries (iRiver H300 for example) will have the most available batteries into the future.

I almost forgot about that. I would like at least 12-16 hours audio and 4 hours video battery life. A user-replaceable battery is also a must, like the Archos 504 and Wolverine ESP / Vosonic VP8360, although very good battery life (8-10 hours video, 30-40 hours audio) might allow me to waive that requirement.
Also, standard (AA or AAA) battery support would be nice, but considering all the players I've seen that seem to otherwise meet some of my requirements have "proprietary" / non-standard batteries (which I'm likely willing to overlook)


I haven't seen any mention of it on the manufacturer's websites, and I only learned about it from the Archos 504 review on CNet that that model was replaceable.


Hmm... Yes I would like to be able to plug in CF or SD cards into it. (what about a SATA to IDE adapter, though?)


Of course SDHC! Main reason I prefer full-size SD, for now, at least, is the price per gig of the 2 form factors. For example, on NewEgg, the only 8GB micro SDHC card (from Sandisk) is $79.99, whereas a 16GB full-size SD card from A-Data (btw I have a couple of their CF cards and they're fine for me) is $60.99



Well I'm basically trying to figure out what compromises I need to make to meet my $200 budget, even if that means settling for a lower capacity (8GB Flash or 30GB HDD) to start with. Also, I'm without a player now, and would like to buy something ASAP.

The Archos 504 doesn't support SD, but the 405 and 605 do. I thought they supported SDHC, but I don't see mention of it in the manual, nor do I with the Vosonic. The Cowon does support it, though.

I'm not limiting myself to the models I've mentioned so far. It's just that I want it as future-proof as possible, for one thing, and having the computer see it as another removable hard disk is another requirement. (Oh, and convincing me to get an Ipod or Zune is going to be extremely difficult.)

Weird like thousands of 16kbps music tracks! he-he .
If serious, you have to make a decision if you want a set-top jukebox to hold your entire collection or a durable lightweigt portable player with great battery time. HDD-based are not durable at all, and flash-based are of limited capacity ATM.

You can not drive a large-screened DAP for a decent length of time without LiIon batteries. This is why you don't see AA/AAA outside tiny things such as the Sandisk Sansa C100 series.

Again, a key of DAP longevity is finding replacement batteries. I'm talking battery lifetime, not playback time - LiIon batteries have a limited lifespan.



No - these are not PCs with drivers for every hardware combination to be found on the open market. These are small devices running embedded OSs which support the hardware they come with. Even if such an adapter doesn't need drivers, it is not a simple piece of equipment such as a PATA->CF adapter.




This is a real twister. SD is cheaper now. Likely the fullsize cards will long be cheaper - but not as drastically different in price as you compare. Comparing an off-brand (A-Data) card to the latest offering from the name brand in SDHC is not really fair. Sandisk SDHC to MicroSDHC is more like $57 compared to $71, a divide which is shrinking day-by-day.


The Cowon does not appear to support SDHC. From their page they have a pretty little icon which says "4GB SD"


The Zune is not a UMS device. The iPod is.

CE-ATA 1.8" HDDs are the newest, and thus likely to be most available in the future. They are also the most expensive - Today. Same as the SD vs miniSD argument what is cheaper now is very likely to be more expensive in the future. Proper future-proofing often dictates buying cutting-edge today so it is still viable tech in the future. A goal at odds with your micro budget.

I strongly suggest the iRiver H340 used. Can use iPod batteries so you will have a likely supply in the future. When the internal HDD dies you can replace it with a CF card (via a passive adapter) and Rockbox will love it and the CF card. Video playback? Not so much. But you're asking for a sub $200 player.

Second choice would be the full-size Zen. Flash and SHDC make it a very durable contender. This is assuming it is UMS, not MTP. Only downside I see is battery replacement.





I've had the same 1.8" HDD player on my hip for over two calendar years, almost 6000 billable hours, 90% of them outdoors, a fair share outdoors while chopping line through the woods and many while swinging a sledgehammer. Durable enough. YMMV. I concede flash wins - but "not durable at all"?

I had a Sansa 260. I returned it because of the white noise issue.
I have been very happy with my Cowon D2. It sounds great and has massive battery life.
The Cowon Iaudio7 is a nice unit, more rugged, but no SD slot.

ughhh... can't get my quote tags to work, I gotta get up at 4:30 tomorrow morning (10:20pm now), and I didn't sleep at all last night.


[quote name='Soap' date='Mar 1 2008, 15:36' post='550402']
You can not drive a large-screened DAP for a decent length of time without LiIon batteries. This is why you don't see AA/AAA outside tiny things such as the Sandisk Sansa C100 series.
[/quote]
Not even with 4 2700mAh AAs? (although I'm not requiring them)

[quote name='Soap' date='Mar 1 2008, 15:36' post='550402']
Again, a key of DAP longevity is finding replacement batteries. I'm talking battery lifetime, not playback time - LiIon batteries have a limited lifespan.[/quote]
k... all the more reason to insist on user-replaceable batteries. (Oh, and as far as playback time is concerned, I'll probably want to have a spare battery available for those cases when I'm away from a place to charge the player. I have probably like 30 or so rechargeable AA batteries I keep on hand for when various devices I have that use them go dead when I can't charge them.)

[quote name='Soap' date='Mar 1 2008, 15:36' post='550402']
[quote name='pianoplayer88key' date='Mar 1 2008, 14:47' post='550386']
Hmm... Yes I would like to be able to plug in CF or SD cards into it. (what about a SATA to IDE adapter, though?)[/quote]
No - these are not PCs with drivers for every hardware combination to be found on the open market. These are small devices running embedded OSs which support the hardware they come with. Even if such an adapter doesn't need drivers, it is not a simple piece of equipment such as a PATA->CF adapter.[/quote]


[quote name='Soap' date='Mar 1 2008, 15:36' post='550402']
[quote name='pianoplayer88key' date='Mar 1 2008, 14:47' post='550386']
Main reason I prefer full-size SD, for now, at least, is the price per gig of the 2 form factors. For example, on NewEgg, the only 8GB micro SDHC card (from Sandisk) is $79.99, whereas a 16GB full-size SD card from A-Data (btw I have a couple of their CF cards and they're fine for me) is $60.99
[/quote]
This is a real twister. SD is cheaper now. Likely the fullsize cards will long be cheaper - but not as drastically different in price as you compare. Comparing an off-brand (A-Data) card to the latest offering from the name brand in SDHC is not really fair. Sandisk SDHC to MicroSDHC is more like $57 compared to $71, a divide which is shrinking day-by-day.[/quote]
I know, I know... compare apples to apples...
What I'd like to know, though, is when is flash going to catch up with (and overtake) DVD-R in price per gigabyte (assuming the DVD is bought in 100-pack spindles) and 3.5" HDD in capacity per unit?

[quote name='Soap' date='Mar 1 2008, 15:36' post='550402']
The Cowon does not appear to support SDHC. From their page they have a pretty little icon which says "4GB SD"[/quote]
In the PDF manual it mentions SDHC. Don't have the link right now but go to the support/downloads section of their site, download the manual & search the PDF. It's there.

[quote name='Soap' date='Mar 1 2008, 15:36' post='550402']
The Zune is not a UMS device. The iPod is.[/quote]
Ok, so that seals the Zune's fate. The iPod is still breathing, though, even though I believe it's on life support.

[quote name='Soap' date='Mar 1 2008, 15:36' post='550402']
CE-ATA 1.8" HDDs are the newest, and thus likely to be most available in the future. They are also the most expensive - Today. Same as the SD vs miniSD argument what is cheaper now is very likely to be more expensive in the future. Proper future-proofing often dictates buying cutting-edge today so it is still viable tech in the future. A goal at odds with your micro budget.[/quote]
Oh, and I wouldn't exactly call $200 a micro budget. Several years ago I bought a Panasonic Shockwave radio/cassette player on ebay, and even though I paid what I would expect was a reasonable rate for shipping, I still paid more for the shipping than for the item itself. And yes, I realize the trend for getting smaller. Anyone remember 8" floppy disks?

[quote name='Soap' date='Mar 1 2008, 15:36' post='550402']
I strongly suggest the iRiver H340 used. Can use iPod batteries so you will have a likely supply in the future. When the internal HDD dies you can replace it with a CF card (via a passive adapter) and Rockbox will love it and the CF card. Video playback? Not so much. But you're asking for a sub $200 player.[/quote]
Am I looking in all the wrong places for finding out how to change batteries and hard drives in players without voiding the warranty? I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere for the vast majority of players with built-in HDDs and batts that I've seen, including Steve's toy. Also, my $200 budget would include buying on ebay or craigslist. I've seen some Archos 504 units and Wolverine ESP units for around that used. Although.. considering I wouldn't get a warranty, it would basically make my does-everything-it's-supposed-to-do, excellent-value-for-$ & built-like-a-tank-and-can-almost-survive-a-direct-hit-from-a-nuke requirements more set in stone.

[quote name='Soap' date='Mar 1 2008, 15:36' post='550402']
Second choice would be the full-size Zen. Flash and SHDC make it a very durable contender. This is assuming it is UMS, not MTP. Only downside I see is battery replacement.[/quote]
I hope it's UMS. I can't seem to find anything about it in the manual, though, unless I'm looking at it wrong. As for battery replacement, yes, it'd be nice to have something replaceable, but I suppose with good enough battery life (per charge (seems to claim to do OK here) AND number of cycles), I could go with one.


[quote name='Soap' date='Mar 1 2008, 15:36' post='550402']
[quote name='Egor' post='550400' date='Mar 1 2008, 18:33']
HDD-based are not durable at all, and flash-based are of limited capacity ATM.
[/quote]
I've had the same 1.8" HDD player on my hip for over two calendar years, almost 6000 billable hours, 90% of them outdoors, a fair share outdoors while chopping line through the woods and many while swinging a sledgehammer. Durable enough. YMMV. I concede flash wins - but "not durable at all"?[/quote]
I had a 4GB microdrive which was knocked over on the floor even when it wasn't operating, and totally died. Computer doesn't even know it exists anymore.



Should I (for now at least) give up on my ultra-high-capacity (terabytes/petabytes/exabytes) preference, and just get a flash player with a CF or SD slot? (Or, a HDD player in which I replace the HDD with an IDE (or SATA) to CF (or SD) adapter?)


I found this on Wikipedia. While it doesn't include the older units, it seems to maybe be useful for a few comparisons.

SD may not be much of a solution for expandability. SDHC maxs out at 8 GB. There are higher capacity formats in development in this form factor, but they most likely will not be backwards compatible. (erroneous info)

So, the highest SD capacity doesn't give you more than that fixed memory players and current players won't really be upgradeable to more space.

SDHC is available at up to 32 GB to day and can go up to 2048 GB. So yes, there is room for expansion above today's fixed flash players, but at a high cost. In two or 3 years the 32 GB card will not be as expensive, but then the player itself will be significantly behind the tech curve and fairly worn.

You could get a CF based player and get up to a very expensive 32 or 64 GB, but could probably buy 3 players for the cost of one of those cards. Less than that and there is no size advantage over a 16 GB fixed memory player.

Also, except for high end cameras, CF flash is on it's way out as a format, so your choices are limited.

My $0.02 - get an 8-16 GB flash player with no expansion slot and a built in Li battery for $200 or less. Get some good headphones and expect 3 years of life from the player. After that, both you and the player will be ready for an upgrade.

Ed. note:
I corrected info about SDHC capacity, but still believe the price/performance edge lies with fixed capacity players.

Not true, theoretical SDHC limit is 2048 GB, and cards are available in capacities up to 16 and even 32 GB!

Panasonic SDHC 32 GB at CES:

"The Panasonic 32 Gigabyte SDHC flash memory card will be available from March 2008."

SDHC at Wikipedia

8GB and 16GB cards are fairly reasonably priced, though. I think one or two of those plus a player with at least 8GB built in should get me started.
I scanned through my hard drive and found a little bit of the music I plan to put on the player (some of it I still have to rip, or I may have it on DVD backups (and off the hard drive)). I enqueued it in Winamp, and the play time is just about 100 hours. This is less than half to one quarter of what I would immediately put on the player. If you start counting audio I still have yet to transfer from audio CD / cassette / vinyl / etc, the playtime explodes by several decimal places, if not more. And, I haven't even figured out the video yet (There probably won't be as much playtime for the video as for the audio, though), but that, when I get around to getting it ready to go on the player, is going to take a significant chunk of space.
And, as for the audio, I probably won't be using less than 160kbps (or maybe 128kbps in the case of a superb encoder, if it's transparent compared to the original uncompressed master, or where the source material is such poor quality that 128kbps would be the uncompressed equivalent bitrate), and could see myself using 320kbps, FLAC, Monkey's, or even WAV.
For video quality, I can't stand the highly compressed videos I often see online, with painfully obvious artifacts. I'd prefer ones that are indistinguishable from the uncompressed original, unless you're a professionally trained videophile scrutinizing the videos frame by frame, and each frame pixel by pixel.
Ok... so I maybe exaggerated a little bit on the video quality requirement, but I DO want at least an equivalent quality video (compared to the uncompressed master) as 192 to 256kbps mp3 is to uncompressed CD-quality wave, for my video content.
Estimated video playtime, for starters, though, will probably be around 30 to 40 hours or so. (Also, I'll need to get a good capture card for my computer so I can archive some older VHS tapes. Is there anything good quality that will work with a Gigabyte GA-MA69G-S3H mobo, Athlon 64 X2 4000+ CPU, 2GB RAM, currently onboard ATI X1250 video, Windows XP Home, for under $30? Then there's the question of whether my recently acquired 750GB hard drive will be enough to house all the content (uncompressed / losslessly compressed masters) I will be eventually putting on there.)



Until a few years ago, for upgrading my digital camera, I was requiring CF. Now that it's obvious that no one (in the non-dSLR category) is using that format anymore, AND prices have come down significantly compared to when I first bought flash cards around 2003 or so, I also will use SD cards. I still won't consider xD or MS, mainly due to them being more proprietary, or SM (although I had a low capacity mp3 player/recorder a few years ago that used them) due to only going up to 128MB, and pretty much being dead as a format.



If I'm getting such low (non-expandable) capacity with a non-replaceable battery, I may want to upgrade in 3 months, not years. (Also, $200 is an outrageous price to pay for something like that, unless it has a TON of high-end features AND will survive ANY abuse a human is physically capable of dishing out.)

One reason I want a replaceable battery is so that if the one in the player dies, and I want to continue listening (and can't charge it right then), I'll just swap the battery and continue using the player, like I've done with every audio device (except my cell phone) I've used up till now. (Then when I have the opportunity (hopefully before my spare dies), I'll charge the main battery in a separate charger.)

My current headphones are Panasonic RP-HT355 - $30 when they were available. They've been discontinued for a while now, and I've already had to repair them once or twice (as well as I'm on my 6th to 8th pair in the last 3 years or so) so I'll need to start looking for something to replace them. I figure I should start looking now, so I don't have to make an impulse-buying panic decision, which I am probably unfortunately going to have to make with an mp3 player, as I have nothing now.

But ONLY 3 years of life? I hope you mean 3 years of being "current / cutting-edge technology", not 3 years "until the player starts acting up, or breaks"! If you mean the latter, I'd prefer at least 1, if not 2, 0"s be added to the right of the 3.


(In quoting the post, I edited out the struck-out segment.)


I'll probably be putting close to 200-300 hours of music (at least 160-320kbps) on my player for starters, and maybe 5-8 hours of video (until I get a capture card).
To get the other content, though, I'll need to get some better playback (and probably recording equipment). My current sound and video is onboard (mobo is Gigabyte GA-MA69G-S3H) - sound is Realtek ALC889A, video is ATI Radeon Xpress 1250.

Obviously I'll need a video capture card for the videos, but I'm also wondering if our current VCRs and tape decks could use an upgrade. I'll want to get as good of a quality off them as possible, preferably as good as the original master was when it was new. (whether this means using a tape deck with XLR outputs, on-the-fly adjustable (while it's playing) azimuth, dual capstans, using a head cleaner between each recording of a cassette, adjusting the tension on the tapes, etc, or whatever, I want to get as good of a quality as possible. I'll want to destroy the originals after I have them permanently archived (somewhere other than the computer's internal hard drive, but I'm thinking media that's capable of holding at least several hundred, if not thousand, uncompressed audio tapes on each media, and that's good for long-term (like 50-100 years) storage.)

However, I don't exactly want to go overboard on my audio quality - if it wasn't there originally, I'm not getting it back. For example, it'd be a huge waste to sample at 192kHz, 32-bit, 6 channels, when the source material is so bad that 5kHz audio is down -240dB, it has only a 10dB dynamic range, and the stereo separation is 0.001°. However, I will probably, at first, record each tape/LP at the maximum quality my equipment is capable of. Then, I'll want to do some tests on it, and losslessly compress it to a more appropriate quality level.

As for upgrading the VCR, cassette deck & turntable, I'll have to wait at LEAST a few months if not more to do ANYTHING with it at all, and if I have to spend more than $100 apiece or $200 total, it might be more like a few years before I can afford anything. In no case, though, do I want to spend upper level x00's into the x,000's of $ for the equipment. Also if I spend more than a few hundred $, I'll want to be able to record from several tapes/LPs/etc simultaneously so I can save some time. (But, then, there's the long and tedious task of ID3 tagging the hundreds of thousands if not millions or tens of millions of songs...)

In the meantime, considering the on-board sound, and my tape players: Panasonic RQ-SW20 (portable walkman-style cassette), Sony TC-FX420R & TC-W550, and Technics RS-B11W, and turntable: Sony PS-242, is it good enough for getting archival-quality "masters" from my old tapes? I suspect it's not. For example, using my portable Panasonic tape player, a lot of tapes sound better if I hold them a certain way in the player. Also, they often sound better the first couple seconds after starting playing, even if I stop and restart from a different spot, or after rewinding/fast forwarding, then resuming play. And, many of my tapes sound MUCH better on the portable Panasonic than the home stereo Sony and Technics units I mentioned.

Then, there's the question of proper tape playback speed. Yes, I realize that some of the tapes I'll record (which were not necessarily high-level professionally produced, and in some cases were homemade) probably were recorded at the wrong speed, but for the ones that WERE done properly, I would like the player to play them at the proper speed so I won't have to make the adjustment in software later. (Or, an adjustable speed player might be ok, too.) And, for the tapes that I KNOW were played at improper speeds, I can adjust the speed accordingly. I'd check the pitch on the piano (the vast majority of these have pianos in the recordings), assuming the piano was relatively in tune, on the recording, against what it's supposed to be, with a device I have (Sanderson Accu-Tuner, which I use as an aid in tuning pianos) that's capable of ±0.005¢ accuracy in pitch detection (100 cents is the typical distance between two adjacent notes on a piano (C to C#, C# to D, etc). (Would the flutter on even the best tapes ever made be bad enough as to make checking pitch for that fine of an accuracy be a moot point?)

(Not sure exactly how to word this correction, but I'd probably be better off checking the pitch of the player using a professionally recorded audio tape with test tones at certain pitches, as the Accu-Tuner basically works by listening to single notes (or harmonics of single notes), not complex harmonies.)

Also, for now, a hard drive player (unless it has a removable hard drive without voiding the warranty, in which case I'd use a CF or SD to IDE (or SATA) adapter, AND can survive repeated drops from several feet while it is operating) is out. I should probably restrict myself to flash players for now, due to my general clumsiness (but considering the content I'd want to eventually put on there (even if it takes me a year or more to get it done) and the quality I would like it encoded at, even several terabytes of hard drive space doesn't even begin to scratch the surface. I guess I have to sacrifice somewhere, though...

Well there you go! :-)

Just one FYI: My experience with "iPod Quality" video has been 500-1000 MB gives a very watchable rendering of 2.5 hour movie in a small player.

Well... I've basically narrowed it down to the Cowon D2 or Creative Zen, but I can't decide which one. Which one would you guys recommend, and why? (and don't cite "cheaper per gigabyte" for the Zen - I already know that.)

If I get a D2, it'd definitely be the 8GB version (and if they had a 16GB version under $220 or so, I'd get that)

If I get the Zen, it'll probably either be the 16GB version, or, if I can get it from a reputable seller for under $225, the 32GB. (Lowest price on the 32gig'er at froogle, though is over $280, and on ebay it's $285, so looks like I'll have to settle for the 16GB and a 16GB SD card)

Also, I need to get a Zoom H2 for recording purposes to replace a dying iRiver iFP-899 + muy barato microphone. Any suggestions on the best place to get one for under $185 shipped w/o rebates? I've seen several priced like that or lower (but not below $160-170 or so) on froogle, pricegrabber & ebay, but I wonder which seller you guys might recommend? Also just in case, I wouldn't mind having a somewhat decent return/exchange policy, like 30 days (but even 14 days would be better than 10, which is better than 7).
Or, if I go to L.A. area on Sunday, there's a SamAsh store a couple miles from where I'll be going, where, if they have it in stock, I could buy it for ~$200 plus tax. That's more than I want to pay for it, but should I do that instead? I don't need to have it for Sunday, but I will be needing to use it by the 21st, and will need to spend a little time before then learning how to use it.

I just got a Sansa e270. Refurb v.1 Put rockbox on it and a 2Gb micro sd card I wasn't really using in my phone and I have a very nice 8Gb player. The sound quality is better than my 1st Gen Nano with rockbox and has more options. When the prices come down on the 8 or bigger micro sd cards I'll simply upgrade. Very nice player and the refurb has a new case and battery. The battery is replacable. I bought it on a whim and now my daughter is getting my Nano. By the way the back of the case says REFURB in letters that look like part of the metal but they come right off with a little rubbing alchohol. Battery life without rockbox 20hrs, with rockbox 12 to 16 depending on the codec used. Price $55 delivered from Woot without sd card. Tough to beat I think.

Recently I just got new Sansa e280 8GB MP3 to upgrade my old iPod Nano, it's a deal price of $100
http://www.dealstudio.com/searchdeals.php?...8965&ru=290
I think Sandisk Sansa is a very solid competitor to the iPod Nano, in regards to build quality, styling, features, and price. Battery life is excellent; I've never run the unit to full discharge, but with heavy use on trans-pacific flights I've never gotten close to battery-empty status, so the stated 20 hrs. seems very realistic.

Here is a post from another forum:

Just saw this deal in mail
Newegg 8GB D2 with a free orange socks case

Listed price is 190$, with the promo code, applied at time of checkout the price is reduced by 35$ to 155$.

Promo Code:
Quote:
EMCADAHCF
__________________



http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx...-L3B-_-55228013

Are those numbers recent? Ever since the February commit of the PortalPlayer device disable work all the numbers I have seen (both anecdotally and in our wiki) show Rockbox whupping the Sandisk runtime.
http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/SansaRuntime

If they are current - I'd love it if you would add your info to the wiki.

How does the e270 compare to the new iRiver E100?
The price seems very affordable. Anyone have experience with this new player?

I have a Sansa E280 player that I absolutely love. I purchased it over a year ago for $199, but I'm sure you can find them for around 110 to 120 US dollars online.

I just purchased a SanDisk (same brand ) 2GB microSD card with SD and miniSD adapters at Staples for only $22.95.

Works great. I plugged the microSD card with SD adapter into my multi-card reader and copied a bunch of MP3s to it. Then I plugged in the microSD into the Sansa, let it refresh the database and viola! I'm off and running.

Check the weekly ads from places like Office Depot, Staples, Circuit City, and Best Buy, and you can often find 2GB microSD cards for around $20 to $25 with adapters.

The new Sansa Fuze seems to fit your description, and it does not have the white noise issues of the E260 or E280. In fact, this review lists the sound quality as very good. I still favor my Cowon D2 for overall sound quality and features.

http://www.anythingbutipod.com/archives/20...fuze-review.php

I have this player and loving it

Anyone can recommend the memory for e100?