Hi,
Please help/advise.
So far, I have been doing alot of homework without any luck at all so, kindly bear with my question.
I am not a gamer, nor do I have need to do any recording.
Is there a high quality sound card[internal pc] available that is just, a dedicated card to enable listening to music and only music?
Not for games or recording...No ''extras'', just to listen to music.
Mtia,
keeto

There are a lot, such as the EMU 1212m. A word of warning, however. Some of these cards can have driver incompatibilities with many other programs. Games are the most common (which isn't a problem for you), but also things like anti-virus. So if you use your computer for ANYTHING other than music, you may want to consider getting a high-end standard consumer soundcard. If this is the case, I would recommend the ASUS Xonar DX2.

Pick up something along the lines of a standard Creative Labs X-Fi at your local big-box electronics shop or online, and live with the fact that yes, it sports surround-sound capabilities. If ever you decided to use these optional channels at some point in the future, they are there for you; in the meantime, the card will do a killer job of basic 2-channel. PCI internal audio kit of that quality can be had for under $50.00. Don't be fooled into classic (cough) 'audiofool wisdom' which dictates that "anything that does multi-channel is not fit for 2-channel audio..."

BTW: I own X-Fi, Audigy and Asus Xonar to name but a few (run a computer business, lots of kit around...), and wouldn't have an issue using any of the aforementioned cards for general audio.

Andrew D.
www.cdnav.com

I have an M-Audio Audiophile 2496 and can absolutely recommend it. Before I bought it I was looking for a not too expensive card that doesn't have any audible noise and a good signal quality with high dynamic range. Also, this card doesn't do any internal resampling, so if you set it to a specific (natively supported) sample rate and play back material at the same rate you won't get any unwanted resampling. I'm also playing games with this card and haven't had any issues. But of course there is no hardware acceleration and fancy EAX stuff. But personally, I couldn't care less about that (and Creative).

Apart from not supporting any of 3D space simulations, the E-MU may also not support low sampling rates: less than 16kHz. Just in case if somebody ever desires to play classic games or some telephony streams. I suspect it has something to do with the low-delay architecture.

If this does not concern you, E-MU 0404 seems like a solid stereo choice with a full set of I/O ports.


Consumer cards would be satisfactory multichannel (multi-room) devices if only drivers supported independent outputs to all the stereo pairs. They did not hesitate to add all sorts of useless EQs and bathroom reverbs, though.

There is an alternative option: you buy a cheap soundcard with optical SPDIF-out and a receiver. In that case you'll get a very good sound quality for your money, I would call it the optimum, rationale choice. If you're interested, here are the details.

You'll need a C-media 8738/8768 based soundcard and a special driver that allows for the best sound reproduction (bit-perfect):
http://code.google.com/p/cmediadrivers/
Such a card is typically priced at $15-20. (Supported devices)

Then get a Toslink cable and a receiver (Yamaha, Pioneer, Sony or whatever you like) and connect to the card.

There are a number of potential problems with audio circuitry and computers: the environment is electrically hostile/noisy and the general purpose audio circuitry does not get much money or attention allocated to it because it is not important to most people when they decide which computer to buy. For example, headphone amplifiers in computers are usually poor at driving typical "hi-fi" headphones.

The solution is simply to take an unconverted digital signal from the computer and transfer it to a separate box with its own power supply and decent audio circuitry. The digital signal can be taken via USB, firewire, SPDIF or ethernet. Since a digital signal is simply a stream of numbers the route is largely irrelevant but not completely irrelevant because there can be very minor issues concerning which end is generating the clock ticks. Then one can buy an audio box that gets sold because of its audio performance and features. Here I would suggest looking for external USB/Firewire sound cards intended for sale in music shops rather than to gamers in computer shops. The reason being that the audio performance is going to generally determine sales more with the former than the latter although, of course, there are going to be a few exceptions. It is not difficult or expensive to manufacturer high performance sound cards but in the computer industry in general the speed of development often leads to products on the market that have not received enough attention and which have avoidable defects.

Personally, I am increasingly using a squeezebox-type approach over an external sound card but this has more to do with how I listen to music rather than a sound quality issue. To my ears, the sound quality is identical via the two routes which is pretty much what would be expected. However, if I use the built in audio circuitry in the computer the degradation in sound quality is obvious but, to be honest, it is still above the threshold where the degradation would significantly intrude on my enjoyment of the music.

That's an extremely vague description.

Yeah, that's exactly what one would get with the solution I've mentioned above.

i use m-audio revolution 5.1 and i am very happy.

I use the same approach as Egor with a budget CM8738-based soundcard running with the modified drivers out to an external DAC/amplifier via digital optical S/PDIF for my home cinema/jukebox PC and am very happy.

Cheers, Slipstreem.

and the CM83738 doesn't resample to 48Khz?

To the original poster:
You might get more relevant answers if you explain WHY you would like a soundcard without recording or fancy games abilities. Is it a matter of cost, a matter of quality, or something else?
Those might gather some significantly different answers.

hi and m. thanks.
I have already stated that the reason I need a card without all the bells and whistles, which is ---I want to listen to music in the best way as possible-that's all.
Am willing/wanting to spend some serious money on this new card.
I did look hard at the Audiotrak [prodigy 7.1HiFi, HD2] and Julia@ cards.
Am stuck.
I am hoping for a card [made] that goes beyond the above mentioned level, that has that 'listen to music' ability.
Is there a quality card that gives a higher quality sound to be heard in 5.1 ch than those above. ie. the audiotrak and juli@?

keeto

sound system-
arcam avr350,
mission e-80, 5.1
creative elite pro sound card

The modified drivers for the budget CM8738-based soundcards are claimed to make the output at the S/PDIF level bit-for-bit perfect. If this claim is true, then it's not physically possible to get any better than that. The quality of the audio from that point on is only limited by the quality of your external DAC.

Cheers, Slipstreem.

I bought a CM8768 based card on the basis that it would be compatible with Dogbert's drivers - I have not been in any way disappointed with the combination. The card only cost me £13 ($26) at the time.

Now, it seems, I must reasess[sp?]. many thanks for this.

If you took this approach and put one of these at the other end of an optical digital cable, I can't imagine you being disappointed.

Cheers, Slipstreem.

Let me get this straight.
If the ratio[1:1] of the bit signal is sent to an amp by 'any' sound card that is enabled by software to do this.
* the quality of the music [in the first place] and the 1:1 ratio is sent to the amp..the amp is in a sense the weakest link, as such.
this then, would provide for the quality of music heard, not necessarily the card at all, correct?

Yes, with minor verification.

Your first statement is correct IF the output of said soundcard is bit-for-bit perfect. That's why some of us are recommending soundcards with this particular chipset as modified drivers are available to make the S/PDIF output bit-for-bit perfect, despite the soundcard costing next to nothing.

If I've interpreted it correctly, then your second statement is correct, yes. The soundcard will play no part whatsoever in the quality of reproduction if it provides a bit-for-bit perfect S/PDIF output to feed to the external DAC/amplifier via a coaxial or optical connection.

Cheers, Slipstreem.

ecellentè as one very great person once said,
oooh! am really pleased with this.
The sound quality of the arcam is good compared to what I had before.[yamaha-v650] I checked out your recomended amp[Yamaha] and I do hear you. I had an older amp [a v360?, possibly] and it was 'warm' and had 'something' about it that was was quite unique. my brother has it now...might do a swap : ) and see the result-could be interesting-
can the pro card and the one to one be achieved, Sliptstreem? you know alot of stuff. I go around the block to get to the end of the street, always have done...

Bit-for-bit perfect is bit-for-bit perfect. Why spend vastly more money to achieve exactly the same thing?

Cheers, Slipstreem.

Slipstreem, I already have the 'pro'[elite] card.
If I want to get 'bit for bit' without any input from the card, do you know if I can do this with the dogbert drivers?

Apologies. I didn't realise you had one already. Unless your particular soundcard is based upon the same chipset, then no.


Hehe! I know a lot about a few things and very little about most things.

Cheers, Slipstreem.

So...you're a specialist then...!

indeed indeed.

The card mentioned has been loaded[old drivers uninstalled] with the dogbert drivers, but, looks like no device has been found.
I have an older creative sc[audigy 2 zs]. I'll try that...I realise that it has to have a specific Cmedia chip on it. will look into this.

You know, I've had my own concerns about what effect EMI (and potentially other unknown anomalies) has on analog audio components inside of a PC, but I've not once seen anyone really quantify the effects. We're now seeing consumer sound cards from various manufacturers with so-called "EMI shields" which cover the card's converters, operational amplifiers and so on, but these manufacturers also haven't shown any data to suggest that their "EMI shields" are effective in any way despite them marketing them as if they are.

So, the question: Would anyone happen to have any kind of real-world data on this?

I found that seemingly there are NO Creative cards compatible with the Dogbert drivers...none use the C-media chip[older Cr. cards use one of the EMU chips[10K2]

I don't have any evidence or data to either support or dismiss the claims. However, 17 years spent as an electronics design/development/test engineer taught me not to deliberately put an ADC or a DAC into an electrically noisy environment and not to run one from a switch-mode PSU if at all avoidable.

As the inside of a PC breaks the rules in both respects in my book, I'm much happier to sit the DAC at the opposite end of an electrically-isolated connection in its own separate enclosure with an analogue PSU. Maybe I'm just experiencing a 'placebo effect' in reality, but it keeps me happy from a technical standpoint and 'pleases' my ears to know that I'm not deliberately abusing the signal any more than is absolutely necessary.

Cheers, Slipstreem.

If the PC environment is as nasty as believed for audio, how do companies claim 110db+ S/N ratios? I don't believe I've ever seen a disclaimer such as "when tested external to the pc"

ok. hey, you guys, all of you, should be given recognition for an awful lot of v. copped-on-iness-ness
this is fekin' amazing, to put it mildly and for want of a better word/s, don't know where to start.
how 'bout here:I got meself a Trust 5.1 card with a C-media chip-8738-I was lucky. Last one supposedly, so am truly happy ...
Is it a curse being an audiophile?-I can see why most ppl don't go there. never happy...?...I am!
such a simple set of rules and they work

thanks so much to all of you, and in particular Slipstreem, for this step achieved
keeto

Hm, I found such numbers written on the box of my x-fi fatal1ty, and it's an outright fabrication. If >100dBA was true I could under no circumstances hear any noise when I listen one of my tweeters from a centimeter while the volume is set to a level that it could damage my hearing in that situation, should any sound play on my computer. But I can hear a subtle hiss - here's the PC environment, I presume.
Apart from the obvious lie I'm satisfied with the sound of my x-fi. I listen its analog output via a denon pma-280 with a pair of heybrook hb1s, and an onkyo amp (which doesn't exist according to google ) with a pair of sonido ants. Really not bad, and it's a commercial soundcard (though not very cheap, it's true) - no noise at all from my normal listening distance (still less than one meter from my front speakers) and its resampler is waaaaaay better than my live! had... plus it lets me set its master frequency, if it wasn't good enough (I usually listen music with foobar2000 and asio output).

Before you'd kill me I'll admit that sometimes I turn off one pair of speakers when I'm listening to music And never, ever use crystallizer or stupid environmental fx - I did not buy this card because of any bullshit - I just hoped to get a better one - and I got.

Or your amplifier perhaps?

I can't rule out the possibility that my amplifiers have stronger noise than my soundcard, it's true. (...but that 109dBA SNR written on the box still sounds quite exaggerated (less exaggerated though than the same numbers in the live! docs...))

And I think I must repeat that IMHO x-fi sounds good - to my ears. I don't have experience with 'pro' stuff, probably it's great luck. Or not. But I really don't care now, I'm satisfied with my audio equipment. It's kinda zen

There's typically some deviation when it comes to manufacturer claims versus real-world performance, but whether that's related to testing methodology or marketing fluff is unknown. In some cases, I've seen actual user observations surpass manufacturer claims, but I can't actually recall any specific instances. I certainly don't think it's ever happened with a Creative Labs card

I'd guess that manufacturers would have a tendency to publish theoretical numbers as opposed to actually running their cards on some test bench with an audio analyzer of some sort, but I don't know. The former sounds cheaper, so probably most likely. It seems like Creative just knocks a few dB off the SNR of the converters they use and call it a day, but that's all conjecture.

And who's to say that the sonic imprint of all of that terrible EMI isn't pleasing to some folk? Hell, maybe I really dig that 'electromagnetic sound'.

In this day and age of stunningly accurate and well-shielded audio cards, it’s a stretch to say that a PC environment is inherently noisier - electrically-speaking, than any other consumer audio device. Sure, super-crappy PC kit exists on the market, but the vast majority of the stuff made by any of the ‘well-known’ brands – especially in their mid to high-end product, is really great! Case in point: I have a brand new Dell Inspiron in the shop, on the workbench in front of me right now in fact, and it's line out is stunningly quiet, even at a volume that, were there a musical signal playing at the moment, my hearing would be in dire jeopardy. I own a whack of personal computers (own / operate a PC shop), and most are in the same boat. Heck, the days of the 'electrically noisy' sound-cards went out with the introduction of the Sound Blaster ‘Audigy' series of cards in 2001 :-)

Switching PSU or not, DAC proximity be damned - the noise floor in the vast majority of PCs these days, hell even laptops, is so damned low that you have to experience it to believe it. Next time you’re cruising through a big-box PC shop, pull the headphones out of your iPod and pop them into a few different DEMO PCs lining the shelves, crank up the volume – you’ll hear (or not), what I mean.

Spend more time discovering new music - and less 'listening to hardware’... otherwise, you’re likely to fall face-first into that bottomless pit of manure known as "being an audiophile"

Andrew D.
www.cdnav.com

Look for RMAA measurements on the web. These are actual measurements of sound cards made by people with a specialized piece of software called Right Mark Audio Analyzer. You have some I made myself here (BTW, they are from an old version of the program and the graphs are visible from Internet Explorer but not Firefox).

I achieved 96 dB of dynamic range with my old internal M-Audio Audiophile 2496, but these figures were limited by the performance of the line-in of the soundcard. With the help of a small amplifier circuit I have been able to verify that the actual dynamic range of the line out is of 106 dB.

Indeed one can not improve on bit perfect but one can improve on jitter.

Well, is there any scientific study on audibility of such (insignificant, I presume) jitter? Or is it another "audiophile" legend?

Jitter is the digital equivalent of the wow & flutter of a turntable.
If it is high, you can hear it.
All our senses have an upper and a lower threshold
As long as the jitter is above this threshold, improving on it will yield audible differences. Below this threshold there will be a measurable improvement but this won't be audible.
If we have to believe this: https://cdnav.sslpowered.com/shared/Jitter%20DBT.pdf we are able to hear random jitter (there are other more nasty types) in the 500 ns range.
1 ns is 1/1000000000 part of a second

More about jitter: http://www.theaudiocritic.com/back_issues/...Critic_21_r.pdf