So, I really like the look of the new default UI, and it's easy to configure and delightful. However, it's not very feature-rich (there are a lot of good suggestions around like different column layouts for different playlists) and there are other things that seem like good ideas which the team doesn't seem to be interested in supporting (like $rgb or images in playlist.)

As a result, I figure that a lot of people are going to use the default UI, but a lot of people will stick with Columns UI, which is a lot more mature and configurable, especially with regard to its playlist stuff. (Disregarding, for the moment, the shrinking population of people who are still using Panels UI, which will surely continue to shrink -- I still use it, but I probably won't be using it a year from now.)

On the one hand, it's nice to have options. On the other hand, Columns UI and the default UI provide very similar functionality, when you get down to brass tacks, and because default UI "elements" and Columns "panels" aren't compatible, it divides all the community plugin effort up. For example, I know a lot of Columns UI users would love to be able to use Facets, and a lot of default UI users would probably like to use many of the zillions of Columns panels which have been developed over the years and continue to be developed. When a new plugin developer writes something, he pretty much has to pick which half of the FB2K community to develop for, which is a real shame and results in users of either UI having less choices.

The developers seem to be working hard on new features and polish for the default UI, and musicmusic seems to be actively developing Columns UI, along with the new playlist view, which is great, so I don't see the current state of affairs changing and one or the other really taking over anytime soon.

What's the position of the FB2K development team on this matter? Do you expect to make the default UI so compelling that eventually everyone will be using it? Is some kind of compatibility layer between panel and element plugins possible? (My dream would be if musicmusic implemented support for default UI "elements" in Columns UI.) Do you feel that the default UI is such an improvement internally that it's worth splitting the third-party development effort?

No, that is not even the goal. The Default UI - like foobar2000 itself - is not intended to be a one-fits-all kind of product.
I don't think it would be possible to achieve seamless integration of panels and UI Elements.
YES! Wait, there is no public SDK that would allow third-party developers to create UI Elements, so this is a moot point so far.

Thanks for splitting this out.



Oh, I don't suppose there's any concern, then! I haven't written any plugins, and I assumed from the release of Facets that the SDK for Elements was public.

When it comes to programming, I really empathize with the impulse to conceive of a pretty specific framework for your projects, and reject collaborators who are going around your framework and breaking your idea of how your software ought to work. I definitely see that kind of thought inspiring the backlash against Panels UI, and against people using titleformatting scripts of ever-increasing kludginess, and I viewed the new default UI as a big reworking which is very much a return to the "spirit" of what you guys intend for FB2K. Do you expect to keep the SDK for UI Elements generally protected, and keep a "clean" list of what Elements you support, or open it up once the default UI codebase matures a little more?

There seems to be a commonly-accepted belief (and it may even be accurate) that you can have ease of use, or you can have advanced features and advanced customization, but that you can't really have both. Whether this is a legitimate dichotomy or not, it certainly seems that the primary developers have thrown their weight behind making Foobar 2000's Default UI easy to use. Not that there aren't a lot of very powerful features, but they seem to be rolling out these features only after they can ensure that they can be used with a minimal learning curve. And not that even Default UI-flavored FB2K is *that* simple, but it's certainly better than it was, and efforts seem to be directed toward improving this.

This is, make no mistake, a very, very good thing. This time last year, I could not, in good conscience, recommend FB2K to anyone who didn't have a certain amount of technical expertise and a lot of time on their hands. I don't think that's true today. (Even if my girlfriend still refers to it as 'my crazy nerd music player'. She says it affectionately, though.)

Honestly, I think if there were an (official or otherwise) Lyrics element created for Default UI, that would satisfy about 90% of the requests for custom content in Default. (And the other 10% wouldn't be happy with anything less than an officially-sanctioned Panels UI equivalent, and I think it's pretty clear at this point that that ain't never gonna happen.)

There are certainly a few things I'd love to see introduced, either officially or as a third-party item. (A proper scripting language, which Titleformatting clearly *isn't*, being high on this list. I've gotten pretty good at making titleformatting do what I want it to, including some things that would make certain FB2K developers cringe, which is why I'm still using 9.5.2., but that's not really saying I *enjoy* it. Give me a highly-customizable track information display and a highly-customizable playlist that doesn't involve headache-inducing spaghetti code and I'd switch tomorrow. I'm a little tempted to brush off my decade-dormant C++ skills and see if I can't accomplish something along these lines myself. No one should hold their breath here, though.)

But I don't see a particular problem with Columns UI and Default UI staying separate, especially since, for the foreseeable future, third-party development is by necessity going to focus on Columns. (While I would not like to ascribe unfounded intentions toward the developers, I am not exactly holding my breath waiting for the Default UI Element SDK to be made public.). Which is fine. If there *does* need to be a split between ease-of-use and maximum customization and features (and while I am not convinced that there does, I admittedly am just a spectator in the grand scheme of things), then having two independently-developed user interfaces, one which has the bulk of 3rd party content associated with it, would seem to be the way to do it.

Moderation: Some off-topic posts can now be found in the recycle bin.

I am pretty happy with the new Default UI. Peter has continually improved it since he introduced it, and I'm sure more improvements will be on the way in later versions. I agree with DocBeard on the Lyrics Panel, but at the moment it is not that inconvenient to use it within the Dockable Panels plugin. I believe the new Default UI is trying to successfully bridge the gap between advanced featues and customization. Like you, I'm just along for the ride.

For me the only thing missing from the default interface is the lyrics. Everything else is bonus.

For the moment I have columns_ui/dockable panels/lyrics panel installed to get the lyrics.

I'm still using the Columns playlist because of this:



I have a big monitor and I like to see a lot of things on my playlist at once, so it's pretty compact with a small font. Combined with the fact that I listen to a lot of compilations, collaborations, and remix albums, having a nice color design on playlists makes them about 100% more readable for me. (I also have a different information layout for playlists of singles, which is a nice bonus and would also be a great feature for the default playlist.)

If I could make the default UI playlist roughly as pleasant for me to look at as that, then I'd switch. (Of course, not everyone finds the same things pleasant to look at, but point being that it's lacking a little comparatively in customizability.)

Other than the colors (DUI doesn't support $rgb()), everything else is possible. But I see your point; the thing wouldn't look nearly as nice without the "shading" effects being applied.