I am currently in the market for a HiFi audio system in the $300-500 range. This sound system will be used as the primary speakers for my computer and used to play music and movies. I would much prefer a 5.1 setup, but a 2 speaker system is acceptable. Also, I would be using these primarily on a laptop that currently only supports a single stereo input, so 5.1 would demand an external sound card. The I have no specific preference in the form of the speakers (bookshelf, floor standing, etc).

I would be willing to make this a DIY project providing that it would be more economical than purchasing a consumer-ready system and that there is good instruction on how to do this.

I am looking for some recommendations for my situation. Any help is appreciated.

Thanks in advance

Well for that kind of money, I think you can rule out getting quality sound from a 5.1 solution. Having said that, any pair of speakers that can reproduce a good range of frequencies can (with some processing) reproduce surround sound. After all, you only have two ears, so two speakers should do the trick right? The reason why this works is that the folds of skin in your outer ear augment or attenuate certain frequencies depending on what direction they arrive from. Surround sound to 2 channel downmixing pocessors use such an attenuation map to produce a realistic directional feel to the sound. Obviously the shape of everyones ears are subtly different, so the effect is mapped for an average ear (whatever that is), but unless your ears are upside down, it's still very good. There isn't really a more immersive audio experience than good headphones, on the proviso you have a well balanced sub switched on so you can 'feel' as well as hear the sound.

For the money you are looking to spend, I don't think you can go past the Altec Lansing MX5021 THX certified 2.1 solution: http://www.alteclansing.com/index.php?file...oduct_id=mx5021 (USD170)

Because most DVD's have a 2.1 audio output (on which said surround sound processing has already been applied) you will be able to get away with a high quality 2 channel sound card. For notebook use, I personally use the Echo Indigo DJ (USD150 approx) http://www.echoaudio.com/Products/CardBus/IndigoDJ/index.php

That leaves a bit of fat in your budget for a decent set of headphones. As much as I like to hate Sony gear, I find their mid to high end headphones to produce quite a balanced, un-coloured sound. Take a look at the MDR-V500 (USD100 approx) or the MDR-V700DJ (USD200 approx). I'll leave it to you to search the internet for the headphones.

These three items can be combined with your notebook in a number of different configurations to produce listening pleasure in almost any situation, but if I had to recommend an actual Stereo system in the budget you have quoted, and can take (analogue) input from other devices, I the sound quality of the Panasonic mini systems is quite amazing and can leave some listeners playing "spot the sub". I use the SA-PM28 (USD350), but I don 't think it is available any more.

Thanks, I have some questions though.

I have heard good things about Klipsch ProMedia 2.1 and the Ultra 5.1, but I haven't gotten a chance to actually try them. What is your opinion on these two solutions?

How exactly do you process the sound so that it gives the effect of surround sound? I've watch many DVDs on many different 2 channel systems, and never felt satisfied.

How can I use the sub with my speakers in conjunction with the headphones.

What advantages does that sound card offer over what I have already?

In regards to your questions:

1: I have no experience with the Klipsch range so I can't help you there. The sound from the Altec Lansings is worth a test listen though.

2: Many common sound cards can downmix 5, 6 or 7.1 (etc) for 2 channel audio via an inbuilt directional frequency augmentation/attenuation function. I used to own an Audigy or Live! (creative) some 8 years ago that did a good job. You could listen to a demonstration sound at front dead centre and clearly follow it's path around the soundscape as someone else modifies it's position.

3: Erm, turn it on? The Echo card has twin anaologue outputs and can therefore run headphones plus speakers.

4: Well, apart from the above, I can only suggest you search the web for some reviews.

Good luck

The best value you will achieve(based on measured performance as it relates to human perception) is the Behringer B2030P speakers. $130/pair. They outperform(measurably) most that are in the 500-700/pair range. I have looked, bought, measured and reviewed credible 3rd party measurements; and these are the top value I can find. I am comparing these to hi-fi bookshelves, not computer speakers. Computer speakers will be substantially inferior to anything I am discussing here.

They 2020P does have flaws, which can be easily fixed by you: such as a specific location air leak and a part that tends to vibrate - easily fixed with some super glue inside. You can also replace the stock internal stuffing with much better material for improved performance in the mid-range(reducing internal mid-band resonances/reflections). I'll even ship the proper stuffing to you if you can't find it easily locally, assuming you live in the USA, that is.

These speakers roll off rapidly under 75Hz, so you need to integrate this with a subwoofer if used nearfield, and stereo subwoofers if used mid or far field. Crossover, ideally, will be in the 85-90Hz range, using a 4th order xover.

You can get the Onkyo SR505 receiver, a very good unit with all needed features, for super-cheap now, as it is being cleared out for the new model. You should be able to score this for $150 online if you shop around. This leaves you enough to get at least 1 subwoofer; the Dayton powered subs at www.partsexpress.com are held(almost universally by owners that have tried these units) as the highest quality per dollar subwoofers available. The 10" unit is $130. You can in fact work 2 subs, the receiver and the speakers into your budget. The reciever has a a variable crossover that should be sufficient. Just set the main speakers to 'small' and set a crossover frequency of about 80-85Hz.

-Chris

I've had stereos costing $10K+ with tube amps and all that stuff. Sounded great but got tired of it, but my ears still like sonic bliss. So I started in the other end of the price scale and ended up with $100 speakers I use both for my XMRadio Inno and computer. It's the JBL Spot speakers. I know when you see them you will say "yeah right", I did, but then I closed my eyes and listened. Awesome! I've used these since they came out, and have never looked back. Reviews of these speakers has confirmed that my ears were right. They are awesome, especially at that price. And they even make WOW rumble!

These speakers are old fashioned stereo, so no 5.1 here I'm afraid.

Again, don't blow these off. Compare them in a store who will let you listen to them and compare with other speakers. There's really no comparison unless you move to the other end of your budget for the speakers alone. A lot of people here will disagree because, well just because. I use my ears and good advice picking gear. My advice may be as good or bad as others. Use your ears. It's those you need to please, not us!

//C

Spend the rest of your budget on good earphones and music!

Thanks for the advice. I noticed that the speakers you mentioned come in active and passive versions. Which one would you say has better quality and value? Also, these won't need to be hooked up to an amplifier, right?

If I decided later to convert this system by keeping the two speakers you mentioned and adding a center channel and 2 more speakers for surround left/right, would this be an appropriate match for the same receiver? What benefits do better receivers offer? Also, I couldn't find a price near $150 for the receiver. Can you point me to a place where I can find it for that price?

On the partsexpress site, I saw that they had this:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.c...tnumber=300-696
Which has the 12" version of the sub and speakers for $200, which is tempting. Do you have any comments on this?




I can't imagine how you ended up with $100 speakers after $10K speakers. But, I'm willing to give them a shot. I don't see these speakers available in any stores. Do you know of any in particular that carry these? I couldn't find any professional-looking reviews either, can you point me towards a few?

I have measured/analyzed and inspected the passive version. I have not done so with the active version, there for I can not recommend it. It could have issues such as noisy/hiss amplifier, etc..



Yes. You would just buy two more pairs of the same speaker, and have a left over as a spare to boot.



Different features, more output power, etc.

The one I recommended is of good quality. It has good enough crossover with enough frequency settings to get you pretty good integration. Later, you could even get an advanced xover/precision DSP control unit like a Behringer DCX2496 to get more control/superior sub to satellite integration and be able to change the sound to your preference with far greater ability. If you did this, you could use the direct amp inputs on the Onkyo receiver suggested and use it only as a 5 channel amplifer.




Yes, directly from Onkyo factory refurbished. You have two choices.

Black solid aluminum face plate:
http://www.shoponkyo.com/detail.cfm?produc...1&ext_war=1

Silver solid aluminum face plate:
http://www.shoponkyo.com/detail.cfm?produc...1&ext_war=1

Note: You have to register and sign in to get a lower price than is shown.



Sorry, the speakers are likely mediocre, as are most speakers.

I recommend the Dayton powered subs for high value; but that's the extent of my recommendation in reference to Dayton's low cost pre-fabbed speakers.





If those can compare, even 1/3 in perceived sound quality, compared to the set up I recommended, I would be surprised....

-Chris

In case I can extend my budget by $100-200, what addition or change would you recommend in that case?

I appreciate your help very much. Thanks.

Well, for ideal fidelity in your budget, so far, I recommended...

(1) Behringer B2030P(slightly modified as I specified early on); 1 pair ($130)
(2) Onkyo SR-505; 1 refurbished unit($150)
(3) Dayton 10" powered subs; 2 units ($260)

So far, we have a $540 total.

You initially listed a $500 range. This is already $40 over that range. So, for $160 additional dollars, I am going to recommend you go to GIK Acoustics (http://www.gikacoustics.com/) and purchase at least 2 of the 4" thick 2' x 4' acoustic panels, and place both of these on the wall behind your computer. This will tighten up your midbass, by reducing nulls/peaks in the response, and overall improve mid-range quality, with the speakers in close proximity to the wall.

After you get all of the above, and the panels, maybe in the future you would add the Behringer DCX2496 DSP processor. This will allow you to get the most out of what you have; but it should be purchased after everything above, IMO.

-Chris

fwiw, i would stay away from the recommendation for the Sony MVR-V700DJ. do a search at places like headfi and you'll see why. on top of being uncomfortable, they're muddy as hell and accentuates the bass to no end (hence DJ). they're also not $200 - you can get them for about $100 US at Amazon among other places. they're not even worth that. put your money towards some lower end seinnheisers.

Wmax, I intend on getting the speakers you suggested. Could you specify instructions to modify them for optimum performance?

Also, why is it important to have speakers that have a very flat frequency response?

(1) Remove tweeters from the waveguide. There is a point where the tweeter faceplate butts up/connects to the waveguide. This point needs a gasket. You can use rope caulk, bluetak, etc,; and use thin pieces to put on the ring center and outer segments of this contact point to ensure an air tight seal with the tweeter when you tighten the tweeter back up to the face.

(2) Use silicone sealant and apply around the tweeter motor assembly where it connects to it's own face. Be sure to apply enough to also cover the bottom of the electrical metal tabs. There is no gasket installed between the tweeter motor and it's faceplate. This provides for an air tight seal.

(3) Remove woofer. Use liquid superglue(not gel) and apply generously the to magnetic can shield that fits over the motor. You will apply it in the seam where the can meets the driver. This point is only crimped on - and will vibrate/buzz with certain music/sounds. The superglue liquid is very thin and will run into the joint easily; once it hardens, the vibration will not be a problem.

(4) The gasket between the cabinet and waveguide needs to be checked. Check especially near the top of the tweeter cut out hole; the gasket is very thin in this area and may not be exactly aligned with the contact points of the waveguide when tightened down. If you do not see clear impression where it should be sealing, loosen/stretch move the gasket a bit to align it to the obvious point.

(5) Optional(but highly recommended): Remove the factory supplied acoustical dampening material and replace with a highly effective material such as high density(4-8lb/ft^3) fiberglass or rockwool board. If you don't have this available locally, and you are in the USA, I will gladly mail you enough for the speakers. It is very cheap - I will charge about $4 bucks for the material and 7-10 bucks for actual shipping. PM me if you need it mailed to you.




A flat response means the speaker is, in at least this capacity, neutral in regards to frequency response. This allows you to use a high precision DSP E.Q. to adjust the speaker response to your ideal preference(s). If a speaker is not flat to begin with, E.Q.ing as an end-user is not going to be nearly as effective because you will have pre-existing coloration(s)/deviation(s) that will always be present to begin with.

-Chris

Bluetak (prestik) gets very gummy after a few years - especially if the environment is a little warm. WmAx, what do you think about using carefully applied hot glue (or silicone sealant) instead? This should give you a robust seal, which is easier to remove later on.

Some (generally cheap) brands of silicone sealer contain solvents which can damage some types of plastics. Maybe test a very small area on the plastics to be sealed before you go wild and do the whole thing.


I have always found it strange that people get obsessive about a 0.1dB ripple on the frequency response of their DACs, but happily put up with huge (10dB or more) ripple on their speakers frequency response. For speakers of course, the frequency response doesn't tell the whole story - CSD is a better spec, but is seldom provided by speaker manufacturers.

I'd like to also recommend Cambridge Soundworks PC speakers. As well, my general advice is always buy the speakers that sound best to you, no matter if others like them or not. Spend as much on the speakers as possible. As well, you might also consider the second hand market, as a used quality speaker outperforms a new cheap one!

The hot glue will not work - as you have to scrape off the residual between the tweeter and waveguide on the front - scraping the hot glue off this joint on the front would likely cause cosmetic damage to the waveguide. A putty type material is easily scraped off with your fingernail. On my test units, I actually used a gummy rope type speaker gasket material. It is what (partsexpress) used to provide with drivers when you bought them. But rope caulk or blue tak should work fine. I have no idea of the long term resilience of bluetack; perhaps you have a point.


I have never used cheap silicones, so I can't comment on those. I use the high grade exterior silicone made by GE, that comes in a caulking tube. But if you are worried, you can even use the water based acrylic based caulking. It is so benign, that I can't imagine it harming any surface.



Well, that and resonance(which is almost never disclosed). Here is the waterfall response, btw: http://www.linaeum.com/productinfo/other/b..._offaxis_1M.gif

BTW, I was just lent a KRK active monitor speaker; one of the mini-monitor units with a 5" woofer(KRK ROKIT 5). I will measuring that soon. PM me if interested in the results.

-Chris

How is the graph of the waterfall response for CSD interpreted? How do you can determine whether it is favorable or not? What about for resonance?

On a side note, I tend to enjoy sound from larger drivers compared to a similar, but smaller model, of the first speaker compared at equal loudness. Is there a scientific measurement that explains this?

There is a number of active studio monitors which would probably give you the most accurate sound reproduction in this price range (but without very low bass, in this price range/size they would roll off at 45-60 Hz). And you need nothing but a cable to connect them to your sound card output. Start here. The cheapest probably don't deserve to be called studio monitors, and cheap Edirol monitors are usually given bad review, but look at Event, Alesis, M-Audio and such. Cheap KRK monitors (not carried by
Sweetwater) may be also worth looking at. Pay attention to what input do they provide (this may differ, althoug unbalnced RCA typically is provided), and if there is a volume control. If if there is a volume control, it will be often placed on the back, and there will be separate control for each speaker. So you may chose to control volume in your computer.

BTW, I completed the measurements of the KRK ROKIT 5 powered monitor. Apparently it is a popular unit - but it has so many broad width dips in it's response that it was not every neutral. Narrow dips are generally hard to hear - but when you have wide ones - it becomes an issue. Now, it's still not at all bad - in fact it's superb compared to probably any normal computer speaker. The unit can not really go above 95dB; it appears the amplifier starts to clip above this point. It must have very low efficiency transducers. Distortion performance was average. A 4th order xover at 100Hz really improves the midbass distortion, as expected. Actually, this does not tell the entire story. The entire frequency range of the midwoofer is drastically cleaned up at moderate to high SPLs with the xover - as the extreme excursion without the filter causes all sorts of nasty non-linear behavior(s) to appear. Frequency extension is rather impressive when you consider this is a mini-monitor with a 5" mid-range woofer, and if you use it full range at only moderately low to low SPLs.

Complete measurements can be found in this directory: http://www.linaeum.com/productinfo/other/krk_rokit5/

-Chris

It's actually difficult for someone not familiar with the founding perceptual research[1] to determine audibility of things viewed in the chart. However, the basis is that you have the time axis and frequency axis and amplitude axis. You compare relative level and bandwidth(Q) of a residual trail or anomaly using this graph, to determine resonance audibility, at least in a crude manner. For more detailed analysis, you would take the impulse response and window specific time points for more detailed analysis to calculate level and Q of an artifact to correlate with the perceptual research. However, the chart becomes rapidly useless, based on the windowing length of the impulse. Here, with a 3.2msec window, information under 2.5khz rapidly becomes less useful/reliable(insufficient resolution). However, even if you use a larger window, you are limited by the distance in a room and the maximum window possible before reflections start to enter the time window. This prevents proper far field analysis of resonances in the 100Hz-500Hz bandwidth which are the typical range for cabinet panel resonances. There really is no substitute for an anechoic chamber in this regard - or a 50 foot pole in the air.



Yes. Distortion and frequency response are the main likely factors. If you use a proper active crossover and integrate the monitors with subwoofer(s) properly, neither of these is an issue.

-Chris

Very interesting, thanks for sharing! Why do you measure from 0.5k upwards only? What are the measurements conditions?

I'm afraid I don't understand. There is a full range 0 degree on - axis response graph that starts at 20Hz(filename frequencyresponse_onaxis_spliced.gif ). The LF limited measurements are the horizontal response sets; there is no reason for me to splice in the LF for those; the only difference is in the mid and high response for off axis. Refer to the full-range on axis file for full range FR measurement.

Measurement conditions are 1 Meter, except for the low frequency portion of the on axis graph, which nearfield LF was spliced to the 1M measurement.

-Chris

No, it was me who did not understand... I realized my mistake after I posted, but you corrected me before I got back to a computer :-)

Sorry been busy so no response until now. I guess you've already gotten something audiophilish running? Well, going from $10K speakers is not something that happened overnight. However, I am very tired of all the trickery. When all it comes down to it's my, in this case your, ears that counts. I went out and listened to tons of speakers before I purchased the JBL. It was just that none of the ones within my current budget sounded as good. As for reviews, I do not know what you mean by professional looking. If you want lots of measurements and charts and stuff I'm not sure I can help, but I would assume a "jbl spot review" wold come up with something. Also, I guess the source for music I use these days doesn't justify too expensive speakers. I am mostly listening to XMRadio and mp3s of various quality. I got tired of collecting music on CDs also. If you are one of those who rip your favorite CDs with EAC keeping the tracks uncompressed then maybe high(er) end speakers would matter a lot more.

These funky looking JBL babies sound good. Honestly they do. If you can find something within your budget that sounds better, get it! I couldn't, and my budget was close to yours.


//C

I was thinking of a review done by a knowledgeable reviewer from a site dedicated to audio news and such. Words from reviewers that just say they like the speakers have no value to me. A five sentence review on an retailer's website is not adequate. I want to see a full length review that explains WHY it's better than the competition or WHY it falls short.

Are software EQs such as the one in iTunes effective for this purpose? How can I adjust these speakers for the most "immersive" experience?

Sorry, the vast majority of these EQs are imprecise and do not allow the level of control required for fine tuning. They provide a very crude/rough tonal adjustment ability. It would be by pure chance, I believe, if you happened to achieve optimal response by using one of these.

BTW, here is an example of standard EQ vs. a precision DSP hardware unit, that I measured/graphed for clear illustration of the situation: http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showp...mp;postcount=29

BTW, jn addition to being woefully insufficient for precise adjustments, many software EQs also induce distortion when you use too much gain on a slider/adjustment.

-Chris

chris, thanks for your tests, i'll keep looking for a desktop replacement.

Ok, I have a question about how I would integrate the DCX2496 into my system. Should I be using the receiver to decode the audio to its analog outputs and connect the DCX to the receiver's analog inputs? This method would require the DCX to convert from A-D then back to D-A. Would this additional conversion audibly degrade the sound? Is this the best way to integrate the device?

Also, I need a USB/Firewire device to output the digital audio to the receiver. It should support pass-thru of AC-3/DTS. Can you recommend one?

I personally use the analog inputs on the DCX, even though my source is usually digital. It does not degrade audio by any degree enough to be anywhere near audible; if I had any suspicion of degradation in any way relevant to hearing - I would not do it. But you should use whatever method is most satisfactory to you - you might have OCD and it might bother the heck out of you for no real reason for all I know.

I don't have any recommendations for such products.

-Chris

First post!

I'd like to throw in my reccomendation for the 2030p (not like it matters, since you've already chosen them). I'm the lucky kid who managed to stumble upon the diamond that is the 2030p, and informed wMax about it.

Great speaker, and you will love every second of it.



I've heard that the EMU 0404 USB is a good card. Wmax said something to me about the DAC being very good. I can't remember what he said exactly, then again, I don't understand half the stuff he talks about.

I used to have the PCI version and used the digital output to my receiver. From what I could tell, it was an audible improvement over my Creative Audigy 2. Subjective, and can't back that up with facts, so take it anyway you want.

I am slightly OCD in this respect, but I'll manage to get over it in this case.

When using the analog inputs on the DCX, do I need a receiver equipped with pre-outs?

Yes.

-Chris

It's an old thread, but in case anyone else comes looking for a quality 5.1 system on the cheap, consider the Spherex Xbox 5.1. A ton of engineering went into these (they came out of Mirage), and they are both well regarded and measure extremely well:

See the June 03 3007 entry here: http://www.theaudiocritic.com/plog/

They can currently be had from parts express for $100: http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.c...tnumber=309-408, although without the original amplifier.