Hydrogenaudio Forums > Is my EAC rip as accurate as it can be?

Full Version: Is my EAC rip as accurate as it can be?

Hydrogenaudio Forums > CD-R and Audio Hardware > CD Hardware/Software

Gazjam

Jul 6 2008, 18:23

Hi,
new user to EAC, ripping my CD's to FLAC for my upcoming squeezebox purchase.

I've setup EAC from various online guides and as a final check before I rip all my CDs to FLAC, I wonder if someone could confirm my rips are as accurate as they can be.
*Please look over my EAC logfile below*

Is my "Command Line Options" entry ok? Any changes / additions I should make?

I only want to rip my CD's once!

Thanks.

CODE

Exact Audio Copy V0.99 prebeta 4 from 23. January 2008

EAC extraction logfile from 6. July 2008, 23:15

Johnny Cash / The Essential Johnny Cash (cd 1)

Used drive  : TSSTcorpCDDVDW SH-S203N   Adapter: 3  ID: 1

Read mode               : Secure
Utilize accurate stream : Yes
Defeat audio cache      : No
Make use of C2 pointers : Yes

Read offset correction                      : 6
Overread into Lead-In and Lead-Out          : Yes
Fill up missing offset samples with silence : Yes
Delete leading and trailing silent blocks   : No
Null samples used in CRC calculations       : Yes
Used interface                              : Native Win32 interface for Win NT & 2000
Gap handling                                : Not detected, thus appended to previous track

Used output format              : User Defined Encoder
Selected bitrate                : 1024 kBit/s
Quality                         : High
Add ID3 tag                     : No
Command line compressor         : C:\Program Files (x86)\Exact Audio Copy\FLAC\FLAC.EXE
Additional command line options : -6 -V -T "ARTIST=%a" -T "TITLE=%t" -T "ALBUM=%g" -T "DATE=%y" -T "TRACKNUMBER=%n" -T "GENRE=%m" -T "COMMENT=%e" %s -o %d


TOC of the extracted CD

     Track |   Start  |  Length  | Start sector | End sector 
    ---------------------------------------------------------
        1  |  0:00.00 |  2:13.30 |         0    |    10004   
        2  |  2:13.30 |  2:23.70 |     10005    |    20799   
        3  |  4:37.25 |  2:43.65 |     20800    |    33089   
        4  |  7:21.15 |  2:13.52 |     33090    |    43116   
        5  |  9:34.67 |  2:17.23 |     43117    |    53414   
        6  | 11:52.15 |  2:11.17 |     53415    |    63256   
        7  | 14:03.32 |  2:31.25 |     63257    |    74606   
        8  | 16:34.57 |  1:49.35 |     74607    |    82816   
        9  | 18:24.17 |  2:12.30 |     82817    |    92746   
       10  | 20:36.47 |  3:02.50 |     92747    |   106446   
       11  | 23:39.22 |  1:46.35 |    106447    |   114431   
       12  | 25:25.57 |  1:51.73 |    114432    |   122829   
       13  | 27:17.55 |  2:58.50 |    122830    |   136229   
       14  | 30:16.30 |  2:34.42 |    136230    |   147821   
       15  | 32:50.72 |  2:35.53 |    147822    |   159499   
       16  | 35:26.50 |  4:07.72 |    159500    |   178096   
       17  | 39:34.47 |  3:06.63 |    178097    |   192109   
       18  | 42:41.35 |  3:51.22 |    192110    |   209456   


Track  1

     Filename C:\Users\Administrator\Documents\Johnny Cash - The Essential Johnny Cash (cd 1) - 01. Hey Porter.wav

     Peak level 98.8 %
     Track quality 100.0 %
     Copy CRC 6963BB4E
     Accurately ripped (confidence 10)  [900B7577]
     Copy OK

Track  2

     Filename C:\Users\Administrator\Documents\Johnny Cash - The Essential Johnny Cash (cd 1) - 02. Cry, Cry, Cry.wav

     Peak level 98.8 %
     Track quality 100.0 %
     Copy CRC E5E61BB8
     Accurately ripped (confidence 10)  [11BD16B5]
     Copy OK

Track  3

     Filename C:\Users\Administrator\Documents\Johnny Cash - The Essential Johnny Cash (cd 1) - 03. I Walk the Line.wav

     Peak level 88.1 %
     Track quality 100.0 %
     Copy CRC 0E24A00B
     Accurately ripped (confidence 10)  [EFB0ED17]
     Copy OK

Track  4

     Filename C:\Users\Administrator\Documents\Johnny Cash - The Essential Johnny Cash (cd 1) - 04. Get Rhythm.wav

     Peak level 98.8 %
     Track quality 100.0 %
     Copy CRC 9B6EC72C
     Accurately ripped (confidence 10)  [AC4DD81A]
     Copy OK

Track  5

     Filename C:\Users\Administrator\Documents\Johnny Cash - The Essential Johnny Cash (cd 1) - 05. There You Go.wav

     Peak level 98.8 %
     Track quality 100.0 %
     Copy CRC 994C9B73
     Accurately ripped (confidence 10)  [599279DC]
     Copy OK

Track  6

     Filename C:\Users\Administrator\Documents\Johnny Cash - The Essential Johnny Cash (cd 1) - 06. Ballard of a Teenage Queen.wav

     Peak level 98.8 %
     Track quality 100.0 %
     Copy CRC 2B844552
     Accurately ripped (confidence 10)  [F73284E3]
     Copy OK

Track  7

     Filename C:\Users\Administrator\Documents\Johnny Cash - The Essential Johnny Cash (cd 1) - 07. Big River.wav

     Peak level 98.8 %
     Track quality 100.0 %
     Copy CRC 337AB1D1
     Accurately ripped (confidence 10)  [B6B4DB80]
     Copy OK

Track  8

     Filename C:\Users\Administrator\Documents\Johnny Cash - The Essential Johnny Cash (cd 1) - 08. Guess Things Happen That Way.wav

     Peak level 97.3 %
     Track quality 100.0 %
     Copy CRC 91DEFC85
     Accurately ripped (confidence 10)  [028B6595]
     Copy OK

Track  9

     Filename C:\Users\Administrator\Documents\Johnny Cash - The Essential Johnny Cash (cd 1) - 09. All Over Again.wav

     Peak level 95.5 %
     Track quality 100.0 %
     Copy CRC 84623F03
     Accurately ripped (confidence 10)  [2EFFA1FC]
     Copy OK

Track 10

     Filename C:\Users\Administrator\Documents\Johnny Cash - The Essential Johnny Cash (cd 1) - 10. Don't Take Your Guns to Town.wav

     Peak level 97.3 %
     Track quality 100.0 %
     Copy CRC 74ED6862
     Accurately ripped (confidence 10)  [07275E12]
     Copy OK

Track 11

     Filename C:\Users\Administrator\Documents\Johnny Cash - The Essential Johnny Cash (cd 1) - 11. Five Feet High and Rising.wav

     Peak level 97.7 %
     Track quality 99.8 %
     Copy CRC 59B524A1
     Accurately ripped (confidence 10)  [EDA06906]
     Copy OK

Track 12

     Filename C:\Users\Administrator\Documents\Johnny Cash - The Essential Johnny Cash (cd 1) - 12. The Rebel - Johnny Yuma.wav

     Peak level 96.5 %
     Track quality 100.0 %
     Copy CRC F1DE6234
     Accurately ripped (confidence 10)  [21E11166]
     Copy OK

Track 13

     Filename C:\Users\Administrator\Documents\Johnny Cash - The Essential Johnny Cash (cd 1) - 13. Tennessee Flat-Top Box.wav

     Peak level 80.9 %
     Track quality 100.0 %
     Copy CRC 9155414C
     Accurately ripped (confidence 10)  [9595A6DC]
     Copy OK

Track 14

     Filename C:\Users\Administrator\Documents\Johnny Cash - The Essential Johnny Cash (cd 1) - 14. I Still Miss Someone.wav

     Peak level 86.9 %
     Track quality 99.8 %
     Copy CRC 624DE1E7
     Accurately ripped (confidence 10)  [CC88B7E2]
     Copy OK

Track 15

     Filename C:\Users\Administrator\Documents\Johnny Cash - The Essential Johnny Cash (cd 1) - 15. Ring of Fire.wav

     Peak level 97.1 %
     Track quality 100.0 %
     Copy CRC D4350B8C
     Accurately ripped (confidence 10)  [79D3D2DD]
     Copy OK

Track 16

     Filename C:\Users\Administrator\Documents\Johnny Cash - The Essential Johnny Cash (cd 1) - 16. The Ballad of Ira Hayes.wav

     Peak level 98.8 %
     Track quality 100.0 %
     Copy CRC D26E7EBD
     Accurately ripped (confidence 10)  [43C2F1CB]
     Copy OK

Track 17

     Filename C:\Users\Administrator\Documents\Johnny Cash - The Essential Johnny Cash (cd 1) - 17. Orange Blossom Special.wav

     Peak level 91.4 %
     Track quality 100.0 %
     Copy CRC 262CC8FD
     Accurately ripped (confidence 10)  [10BBF64C]
     Copy OK

Track 18

     Filename C:\Users\Administrator\Documents\Johnny Cash - The Essential Johnny Cash (cd 1) - 18. Were You There  (with the Carter Family).wav

     Peak level 96.0 %
     Track quality 100.0 %
     Copy CRC A13CEF53
     Accurately ripped (confidence 10)  [B2679930]
     Copy OK


All tracks accurately ripped

No errors occurred

End of status report

Moderation: Log placed in a codebox.

kornchild2002

Jul 6 2008, 18:56

Everything looks fine to me. Did you manually set EAC to use C2 pointers or did it automatically detect those settings?

The main thing you want to look at when ripping is the track quality (I believe that anything over ~90% is alright) and whether or not the tracks were ripped Accurately.

Gazjam

Jul 6 2008, 19:03

QUOTE(kornchild2002 @ Jul 7 2008, 01:56)

Thanks for the reply.

EAC automatically detected the C2 pointers.

gib

Jul 6 2008, 22:16

First of all, you used AccurateRip, which is excellent. If AR says the rips are accurate, you are good to go since AR is the best way to verify a rip. But in the event AR can not verify your rip, you should probably run a test rip (hit F8) and check for matching CRCs. EAC doesn't really use C2 pointers all that well, so relying on them with a single pass and without AR verification is a little dicey.

You have EAC set to over-read. Are you sure your drive can over-read? Most drives can't, but I'm not familiar with the SH-S203N.

Also, with regard to track quality, I don't think there is any number that is truly "safe". 90% is extremely low and indicates EAC did a ton of re-reads. I'd be very wary of ~90% track quality. But even 100% isn't a guarantee of goodness as consistent errors can still slip through, which is partly why AccurateRip is so useful.

Again, AccurateRip verification is the best. In the event AR can't verify the rip's accuracy, then ripping the disc again (hitting F8 for a test rip) and checking for matching CRCs is the way to go. Or, if you wish to be more thorough, ripping the disc again in a totally different drive and comparing the rips would be even better.

edit: clarity

kornchild2002

Jul 6 2008, 22:56

QUOTE(gib @ Jul 6 2008, 22:16)

Also, with regard to track quality, I don't think there is any number that is truly "safe". 90% is extremely low and indicates EAC did a ton of re-reads. I'd be very wary of ~90% track quality. But even 100% isn't a guarantee of goodness as consistent errors can still slip through, which is partly why AccurateRip is so useful.

edit: clarity

The reason why I said 90% is that I have had some 1:00-2:00 tracks where EAC went back once to reread them. The track qualities were reported to be around 90% to 93% yet they were still Accurate when using AccurateRip. So there are some tracks (mainly the short ones) where a track quality of 90% means that it is OK. I wouldn't accept a track quality of 90% on something that is longer than 2:00 though. I guess I should have clarified that, thank you for bringing it up.

So, it is my understanding that you had EAC automatically determine all of the correct settings on your drive such as caching, accurate stream, offset correction, over reading, and so on? If so, then everything looks alright.

vinyas

Jul 6 2008, 23:07

QUOTE(gib @ Jul 6 2008, 22:16)

First of all, you used AccurateRip

can u elaborate on this ?

kornchild2002

Jul 6 2008, 23:16

QUOTE(vinyas @ Jul 6 2008, 23:07)

QUOTE(gib @ Jul 6 2008, 22:16)

First of all, you used AccurateRip

can u elaborate on this ?

I know that you were asking gib but I can step in. AccurateRip is an online database that houses the ripping results for audio CDs. It can be used with programs such as EAC and dBpowerAMP. So basically, what this means is that EAC will rip a track and compare it to the online results of AccurateRip. You can look in Gazjam's ripping report where is says "Accurately ripped (confidence 10) [900B7577]" for the first track. This means that their rip matched with other AccurateRip results.

Now, correct me if I am wrong but a confidence level of 10 means that there are at least 10 other CRC (or ripping results) values that match Gazjam's that were previously submitted to AccurateRip for that one track/album.

gib

Jul 6 2008, 23:48

QUOTE(kornchild2002 @ Jul 6 2008, 18:56)

Does the track quality % take into account track length? I always thought it was just related to re-reads, but I could certainly be wrong.

QUOTE(kornchild2002 @ Jul 6 2008, 19:16)

Now, correct me if I am wrong but a confidence level of 10 means that there are at least 10 other CRC (or ripping results) values that match Gazjam's that were previously submitted to AccurateRip for that one track/album.

That is correct. 10 previous rips of the songs on that disc matched Gazjam's rip.

jlib

Jul 7 2008, 00:11

From the EAC FAQ:

QUOTE

What does the Track Quality really mean? A few times I get 99.7% or 97.5%. But there are no suspicious position reported.

When you get 99.7% and so on, that means that a bad sector was found, but the secure mode has corrected it - from 16 times of grabbing the sector, there were 8 or more identical results. So it only indicates read problems. It is the ratio between the number of minimum reads needed to perform the extraction and the number of reads that were actually performed. 100% will only occur when the CD was extracted without any rereads on errors. ONLY when there are suspicious positions reported, there are really uncorrectable read errors in the resulting audio file.

So, basically don't think that the percentages have any thing to do with the quality of the resulting file. In secure mode it will reread sectors multiple times and if read error can't be resolved you will get an outright failure or more usually a suspicious position reported. And even the rare errors I have received, I have never been able to discern any problem at a suspicious position even though I always check them.

EAC is a bear to configure first time around especially since some of the defaults are inappropriate. I still don't understand why secure mode is not the default, especially since the people attracted to a program like EAC are only interested in accurate rips.

Anyway, assuming your drive is capable it looks like your settings are good. The only thing that caught my eye is the directory structure and file naming you are using. Wouldn't you want

Johnny Cash - The Essential Johnny Cash (cd 1) - 01. Hey Porter.wav
to be
Johnny Cash - The Essential Johnny Cash (cd 1)\01. Hey Porter.wav

especially since you are going to have an assembly line going? I use EAC for my tagging (with LAME) so I don't know how FLAC does it but my directories (folders) automatically get created, the WAV file gets dropped in there, it is then piped to LAME (or FLAC in your case) and the final properly named encoded file is left behind, the WAV being deleted.

Edit: Wait, this is not related to tagging. I confused myself. It is the filename template in EAC options. Check that menu to get your file naming the way you really want. I use %A - %C\%N - %T but some people further separate the %A - %C as %A\%C but I like all albums at the root. I doubt you actually want what you currently have, though. And make sure you understand the various artists naming convention format if you have lots of compilations and soundtracks.

greynol

Jul 7 2008, 00:24

The quality figure is the amount of data that didn't require re-reads. A single set of 16 re-reads will result in a lower quality figure for a short track than a single set of 16 re-reads for a longer track not including rounding to the nearest tenth of a percent and that the figure will never round up to 100%.

The quality figure can be useful but should not be taken with much weight when assessing the accuracy of a track, especially when C2 pointers are being used. I would pay more attention to how many rows of "error correction" illuminate, though that doesn't mean all that much all by itself either.

QUOTE(jlib @ Jul 6 2008, 23:11)

In secure mode it will reread sectors multiple times and if read error can't be resolved you will get an outright failure or more usually a suspicious position reported.

This is a distinction without a difference unless you're talking about EAC crashing.

QUOTE(jlib @ Jul 6 2008, 23:11)

And even the rare errors I have received, I have never been able to discern any problem at a suspicious position even though I always check them.

They can often be inaudible, but I would not go so far as to say they aren't there. A zoomed-in spectral view with Adobe Audition will often reveal an error unless the section of the track is heavily compressed and/or clipping.

QUOTE(jlib @ Jul 6 2008, 23:11)

EAC is a bear to configure first time around especially since some of the defaults are inappropriate.

I'm not in love with all the defaults but I can't think of any that are so critical as to call them inappropriate. Perhaps you can cite a few of them.

QUOTE(jlib @ Jul 6 2008, 23:11)

I still don't understand why secure mode is not the default, especially since the people attracted to a program like EAC are only interested in accurate rips.

Accurate rips can be achieved without using secure mode. In the case of caching drives and discs in good condition, secure mode isn't exactly the most attractive option.

gib

Jul 7 2008, 00:35

QUOTE(greynol @ Jul 6 2008, 20:24)

And I continue to learn new things. Excellent.

jlib

Jul 7 2008, 01:25

greynol,

I agree, there is an actual read error at suspicious position but if I can not discern by listening then I accept the faulty rip anyway after cleaning and retrying. This is a rarity, anyway.

Regarding the EAC defaults, I would have to look at a new installation to answer you beyond the burst mode default I was complaining about since I just copy over upgrades without doing a new install. So, for brevity let me leave it at that one for now. Isn't secure mode an important backup to using Accurate Rip? I had thought secure mode was the main feature that set EAC apart from easier to use rippers. From the FAQ again:

Why should I use EAC, instead of AudioGrabber, WinDAC, etc.?

EAC features some special read modes, known as “Secure Modes”. Using these secure modes, every sector read will be doublechecked and reread or corrected if necessary. On many drives the extraction is not error free, thus these routines will make sure the track is read correctly.

I had also thought that secure mode turned off caching if it detected it on the drive or if you checked the caching drive box.

greynol

Jul 7 2008, 01:56

QUOTE(jlib @ Jul 7 2008, 00:25)

I agree, there is an actual read error at suspicious position but if I can not discern by listening then I accept the faulty rip anyway after cleaning and retrying. This is a rarity, anyway.

You bet. I apologize for implying that you felt all errors were audible. This was not my intention.

Speaking of situations that aren't commonplace, it is possible for there to be good data despite the warning of a suspicious position (hence the word "suspicious").

QUOTE(jlib @ Jul 7 2008, 00:25)

Isn't secure mode an important backup to using Accurate Rip?

Yes and gib did an excellent job in pointing this out. Note that burst mode used in conjunction with test and copy is also secure. If you read the second post in this discussion you'll see the creator of the program has embraced this method.

QUOTE(jlib @ Jul 7 2008, 00:25)

I had also thought that secure mode turned off caching if it detected it on the drive or if you checked the caching drive box.

The caching setting is solely responsible in this regard. If you have a drive that caches audio data but have the setting unchecked, EAC will not perform the flushing necessary for proper operation.

jlib

Jul 7 2008, 03:52

OK, thanks for that detail. That would have saved some time I guess when I burned my entire collection earlier this year.

And this is what I mean about EAC being such a bear to figure out for a new user. Look at these seemingly contradictory suggestions in the FAQ:

I didn’t configure EAC at the first time and EAC extracted the audio really fast, somewhere between 8x and 14x. This seems too fast for an exact extraction?

In default configuration EAC uses the burst mode. I recommend to use the appropriate secure mode for your drive. To know what the appropriate read mode is, there is an automatic feature test in the drive options, just below the read mode switches.

and then

Why should I use Test & Copy? How to read the CRC codes?

If you don’t like to use the secure modes, and the burst mode does not have error correction, the best possibility to check if an error occured is to copy and test the track. For each read and each track, the appropriate CRC column is filled with the actual CRC code. One CRC code is unique for a set of data. So by comparing the CRC values you could be quite sure that both reads resulted in the same file.

greynol

Jul 7 2008, 10:13

Those aren't exactly contradictory. Andre recommends Secure but says it's safe to use Burst T&C if you don't like it. To be honest though, I can't say I'm thrilled with everything that has been written in that FAQ and some of it has later proven to be incorrect. While this may make the program tougher to configure, it doesn't make any of the defaults inappropriate.

Anyway, if you allow EAC to run the wizard as it prompts you when it first starts and you tell it you are interested in accurate results, secure mode will be selected.

Agent69

Jul 7 2008, 11:31

QUOTE(greynol @ Jul 7 2008, 12:13)

Anyway, if you allow EAC to run the wizard as it prompts you when it first starts and you tell it you are interested in accurate results, secure mode will be selected.

That's what I do. I pretty much let EAC set up everything for me, especially since my optical drive is the database.

Mitch A

Jul 7 2008, 11:40

Is a single burst pass with high AR confidence (10+) enough to be sastified the rip is accurate? As with this method, I can get alot of ripping done quickly.

greynol

Jul 7 2008, 11:49

A defective disc ripped with a drive using the same chipset giving the same consistent error by 10 people is not beyond the realm of possibility, but I wouldn't be too concerned.

I used to say that a confidence of 1 is all one needs, but in light of some of the evidence brought forth not too long ago, I have backed away from this statement. The problem with DAE is that there are very few certainties.

Mitch A

Jul 7 2008, 12:53

I usually do T & C most of my rips for extra assurance. As with what your saying though, if you worry about every possibility with ripping you'll doubt any rip is accurate.

Juan C.

Jul 7 2008, 13:01

Hi, I'm ripping using Test and Copy but using Secure Mode. Is this good or I should switch to Burst Mode to use Test and Copy?

Akkurat

Jul 7 2008, 14:27

QUOTE(greynol @ Jul 7 2008, 20:49)

Really? What new evidence? Here in HA? I must have missed that topic. Please share your source. Thanks. I recently stumbled across a discussion between us in EAC forum where you said the confidence of 1 is good.. if that's not your own submission... it was over 6 months ago.

greynol

Jul 7 2008, 23:45

QUOTE(Juan C. @ Jul 7 2008, 12:01)

Hi, I'm ripping using Test and Copy but using Secure Mode. Is this good or I should switch to Burst Mode to use Test and Copy?

I've seen instances where matching CRCs in burst gave an accurate rip but not in secure and vice versa. It depends on the drive, the disc and the configuration. If we're talking about discs that produce errors due to scratches, I trust burst T&C over secure T&C. The best thing to do is employ diversity, meaning ripping with different modes and/or secure configurations and/or significantly different drives (as Gib already mentioned).

QUOTE(Akkurat @ Jul 7 2008, 13:27)

Please share your source.

Here are a variety of situations. All of them show the potential for consistent CRCs of bad rips to appear in the AR database. Some are due to disc defects, some due to a bug in EAC (one of which will be fixed in the next release), and some can be a combination of both (perhaps you could consider it an exploitation of a weakness in EAC for a specific case), some due to buggy drive models...
http://www.digital-inn.de/exact-audio-copy...ng-results.html
http://www.digital-inn.de/exact-audio-copy...rip-result.html
http://www.digital-inn.de/exact-audio-copy...am-related.html
http://www.digital-inn.de/exact-audio-copy...erent-crcs.html

daybreaker

Aug 1 2008, 13:42

I just reinstalled Windows and I finally bothered to upgrade EAC And start using the AccurateRip database. I got a new-ish drive from a friend's old computer (NEC ND03520A) and I have a Toshiba DVD-ROM SD-M1712. I was under the impression that the addition of AccurateRip to my routine would somehow help my audio paranoia...and I can easily say that it makes it worse.

The NEC seems to have the best results with AccurateRip but none of my drives (I have a Yamaha as well) seem to agree on rips. When I rip this one particular disc with the NEC it agrees with AccurateRip...when I rip it with the Toshiba only 2/3 of the tracks agree. I bought a brand new CD that isn't in the database yet and the NEC routinely finds a sync error in track 18 and the Toshiba happily rips it. What the hell's going on here??? Anyone else have a similar experience?

Parsi

Aug 4 2008, 10:00

you should post the configs for the questionable drives

greynol

Aug 4 2008, 11:43

There is nothing unusual about different drives behaving differently. It has long been recommended on this forum to own drives with more than one type of chipset.

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