I would appreciate some expert recommendations for a home theater setup on a budget. I need everything from speakers to receiver and CD/DVD/(BD) player. I am looking for 5.1 surround, good s/n ratio. I hate noise. I also have a large lossless music collection (on hard disc, w/ some 24/96) which I would love to hook up to the system wirelessly if possible (?).

I need 3 separate options to weigh my choices:

• $500
• $1000
• $2000

ty!

As you haven't specified which country you reside in, this is almost an impossible question to answer regarding exact product makes and models. Please tell us where you are.

Cheers, Slipstreem.

I am in California.

The two top choices for receivers are the Yamaha 663 and Onkyo 705(refurbished), so far as features/quality vs. price. I have seen the Yamaha as cheap as $360 shipped new and the Onkyo as cheap as $440 shipped refurbished. Both have HDMI switching and up conversion from other sources. The 663 has two HDMI inputs while I believe the Onkyo has 3 HDMI inputs. The Onkyo is reported to run hotter than the 663, but no where near as hot as many of the other Onkyos(such as the 605 or 805). The Onkyo passes the HDMI signal unadulterated, while the Yamaha modifies the signal. The modification specifically has no effect on standard movie viewing, but it will cause clipping in extreme color values; really only an issue if you intend to switch a computer display source through the Yamaha, such as a home theater PC. I don't think you can go wrong with either choice - both are my top contenders right now. The Onkyo looks much nicer IMO, though, if that is a factor. The Onkyo has a thick solid metal alloy front, and comes in both satin silver and black, as compared to the metal-simulated molded plastic of the Yamaha. Both have pre-amp outputs; important for future proofing if you for example want to use external powerful processing or want to drive difficult load speakers.

-Chris

Thanks a lot. Any ideas for 5.1 speakers?

WmAx made some great entry-level suggestions... Either the Yamaha or the Onkyo will be great. I'd like to add the Dennon 688 to the list. Similar price point, great sound. Does a little better with music, IMHO.

As for 5.1 speakers, take a look at Polk's RM6750 package... you might want to upgrade your front speakers somewhere down the road but this set will not let you down. I bought a set (on sale, mind you) for $300 at Future Shop in Canada. If you do get some larger fronts some day you can configure a 7.1 or put the two extra polks in another zone.

I will get back to you with speaker suggestions later. I don't have time right now. But I have significant qualification in giving you advice in this regard, as my primary hobby is speaker engineering and study of the perceptual sciences in relation to this subject. As such, I can recommend the devices that will be perceived by the majority with regular hearing(as opposed to hearing damage or impairments) as superior vs. the dollars spent. But the first recommendation for a super low price point is usually going to be the Behringer B2030P, along with some minor physical fixes(such as sealing an air leak, etc.). I'll add some other recommendations and cover details on the Behringer when I reply later on.

-Chris

Ty Guys - I look forward to some more input on speakers. I like that these options seem very futureproof, even at minimal expense. Does anyone know how I can get my music collection (on hard disc, 2 stories above) to the receiver? Is there any way to control it from downstairs?

The Denon is an inferior choice compared to the two previous recommended units. The Denons has no pre-outs(which means you can't upgrade later with powerful external processors or even add external amplification for difficult load loudspeakers), and it has no HDMI cross conversion(it can't convert other video inputs to HDMI so only a single video connection is needed to the video monitor). I'm not even sure the Denon can grab the audio stream from the HDMI input signal; many of the units that do not have video cross conversion require separate analog audio or digital audio connections seperate from the HDMI input.

As for claims like: "Does a little better with music...", such claim has no plausible credibility. If I thought the Onkyo or Yamaha offered any distortion, noise or frequency response deviations to cause audible difference from a baseline neutral reference, I would not even recommend them.

-Chris

Okay, for speakers.....

The Behringer B2030P is the top choice for budget reasons. 3 sets of these, at $130 per pair, will give you enough units for up to a 6.1 audio set up. Now, this speaker is actually superior, at up to moderate volume levels, to anything I know of under $1000 per pair, in terms of measured performance factors that are most relevant to human hearing. Specifically, the unit has unusually good resonance control of the drivers, and superb off axis response that is very unusual. That is, the tonal balance at 60 degrees +/-(120 degree window) is almost identical to the on axis response, up to 15kHz. Very unusual. Very critical for optimal sound quality. The mirrored off axis response means that the ambient room reflections will be tonally identical to the on axis direct sound. Perceptual research has found that when these two sound sources(direct vs. room) are closer in response, the human hearing system virtually always perceives sound quality as being improved, as compared to differing direct vs. room signals. The Behringer is also made better, physically, than most bookshelf speakers that cost 3-4x the amount - I kid you not. I was very surprised with the physical construction of the drivers, crossover and cabinet when I examined a pair. Now, these are not perfect devices. Many mass produced speakers have certain details that are over looked. These are no different. But the details are easily corrected. They include:

(1) An air leak between where the tweeter mounts to the front plate. Fix this by simply using rope caulk or similar thick mastic type compound placed in very thin layer between the joint. Also, use the same material built up on the seam of the tweeter's own face plate(do not dis-assemble the tweeter from it's face plate) and the tweeter motor to make sure no air breach occurs here either.

(2) Possible vibration of the metal magnetic shield can that is attached to back of woofer. Fix by running liquid super glue between the joint of the magnetic shield and motor seam.

(3) Possible vibration of ports where they are glued to the side walls of the cabinet interior. Make sure they are rigidly attached(no movement). If you detect movement, use ample super glue to re-adhere the joint.

(4) Optional Upgrade: Add additional acoustic absorption stuffing. Like most speakers, this one uses an insufficient amount; some excessive internal reflections exist as a result.

Now, another excellent option is the Infinity Primus 150 or 152.($170/pair price range)(Basically same speaker; 152 is newest version with slightly different cosmetics). However, this offers less output ability(SPL) as compared to the Behringer unit. The same magnetic shield can vibration problem is likely here - and is fixed the same way. The acoustic absorption stuffing used in the Primus is even worse than that used in the Behringer. The Primus has very good off axis response(better than most), but is inferior to the Behringer. Resonance control of the drivers is about equal to the Behringer. Low frequency extension is worse compared to the Behringer.

Another option, but more expensive, is the Ascend Acoustic CBM-170 SE. However, these are $350 per pair and as such, would probably exceed your total budget allocation. The CBM-170 has the most resonant cabinet of the suggested units so far. However, the CBM-170 is very linear(flat), with a slight treble rise. It offers the highest SPL/dynamic range of the bunch by a considerable degree. However, this is a 4 Ohm speaker(yes, I know the manufacture site says it's 8 Ohm, but I measured some of these, and it is 4 Ohm), and many receivers may not have optimal high power output ability into this low of an impedance. The off axis response is good on these, but not near the performance of the other two units suggested so far.

The three above speakers are the best performing for the dollar units I know of, objectively. The Behringer, at up to moderate volumes, has the potential to exceed any that cost several times their price, if you make the basic fixes I outlined.

Please be aware that all of the speakers above need to be used in conjunction with a subwoofer. Ideally, you should use at least 2 subwoofer, if you want optimum seamless integration for music reproduction. For movies, it's not that big of a deal.

The only super cheap subwoofers I know of worth getting are the Dayton powered subwoofers, both the 10" and 12" have been heralded by everyone that has used them, as the best 'cheap' subs you can get. The 10" is about $130 and the 12" is about $155. If you want a subwoofer that is much better, you need to go to a starting point of about $400 to really exceed what the Daytons have to offer. Even then, if you were to simply get two of the Daytons as opposed to one of the $400 units, the two Daytons combined would better it in actual performance, and offer superior integration with the bookshelf speakers.

-Chris

I think there several subs between the Dayton's and ~$400 that are definitely worth considering.

- The X-Sub is a smaller sub with quality output. With an 8" driver it's not going to blow your windows out, but it will definitely add quality low end to a setup.

- The Acoustech H-100 is an impressive sub offering powerful and deep output at a terrific price. It can be had from a couple different distributors on eBay for about $250 including shipping within the US. Designed with help from the Hsu Research team (Hsu Research makes phenomenal subs), it even uses the same amp as one of Hsu's subs.

- The Elemental Designs A2-300 is a powerhouse on a relative budget. It's lone downside is its appearance, which many find ugly. But if you can tuck it away somewhere, it would be a great buy.

Any of those will deliver true subwoofer performance at a budget price. The H-100 and A2-300 will be the better choices for bigger rooms or heavy home theater use. I'm sure there are other options as well, but I haven't been on top of the subwoofer scene for about 6 months now. I've heard some good things about the Cadence CSX-12 but can't say for certain how it compares to the 3 I listed above.

I don't really agree. The Daytons are decent subs at great prices, but are definitely inferior to the subs I mentioned. I think getting 1 clearly superior sub is a much better option. Also, integrating 2 subs into a system can be a bit tricky - depends on the room and available placement options.

Tricky --- well, someone has to have basic motivation to do some basic measurements and experiment with placement. But multiple subs will always be superior to single units. Multiples will smooth response when placed properly, and they will integrate far better at the cross over frequencies required to integrate with standard bookshelf size speakers. There is no way a single of the subs you mentioned is going to provide the over-all quality as two of the Dayton units(that would add up to about the cost of just one of the Acoustech subs you suggested). It just is not probable, based on just the factor of integrating with the bookshelf speakers at the relative high xover frequency required.

I have to also point out, I consider all of the budget subs to be sorry in performance/quality - and most of the high end subs as well. I am strictly a DIYer - and I deal with far higher grade drivers/cabinet designs as compared to most commercial designs regardless of price range. I am recommending these cheap subs for minimum budget reasons only - and as far as $130 completed subs go - I don't know a better one than the Dayton unit.

-Chris

Chris,

Can you comment on Behringer's other passive 'Studio Monitor', the B2031P, or have you only examined/tested this model?

Thanks,

John

I have only measured/analyzed/examined the B2030P. As such, I can not comfortably suggest the B2031P.

-Chris

Thanks folks. The Behringers are sounding very attractive, however I'm not so confident in my ability to correct subtle engineering flaws using caulk or superglue. Assuming I made no modifications, how would these compare to the Polk RM6750?

I'm leaning towards the 12" Dayton, with the possibility of adding another down the line, depending on how much "boom"I need.

I think you nailed it when you said "Multiples will smooth response when placed properly..." (emphasis mine). Not everyone can do that for various reasons and that's why I specifically said that integrating 2 subs can be tricky depending on the room and available placement options. For example, in my room, I had exactly 2 placement options due to the layout, space, and other people in the house.

Beyond that, I will respectfully disagree that there is "no way" any of the subs I mentioned would provide the overall quality as 2 Daytons.

Jeez, WmAx, I was just making a suggestion. And a good one, I think. I guess you don't like Denons, I think they sound great. My previous receiver was a Denon (a 988, granted) and I now own a Yamaha 3800... I had a hard time deciding between the equivalent Denon or the Yamaha, but thought I'd try the latter. I love it, but I'm sure I would have loved the Denon, too.

I have never used my pre-outs on any of the receivers I've owned and I wouldn't expect it to be high on the list for someone looking for a $1000 HT setup. My PC and Blu-Ray player both connect by HDMI so I don't use any up-converting or analog-digital conversion options anyhow. That being said, for $100 more the Denon 788 will give you pre-outs and HDMI audio pass-through. If you want those features. It all depends on what the lad wants.



Dude, I will forward you the listening survey that I conducted where I had 400 people listen to alternating bursts of various movie clips and music clips from 25 different genres. I'm sure you'll come to the same conclusions that I did.