Hi, lately, I was thinking of good way of spending money, and because I listen to music about 8 hours per day, I got into conclusion some better speaker system would be nice - but the thing is, I know absolutely nothing about those.. So I thought I will try to get a help from the experts..

Now, the thing is, I have no idea of the price range those things sell at - I was thinking the full system with amplifier and everythign would be nice, but I don't know what to expect from the price.. so in the worst case, I would have to go with 2.1 set..

So, in short.. what is the minimum price I can get a full speaker + amp, etc. set for?
And, in the case of ermergency, what are the best 2.1 speakers out right now? (Or, best 2.1 speakers in, lets say, 200-300USD range? Of course the less the better..

Thanks.

Another question for you is what would be your source? I.e. PC, MP3 player, CD player?

I've been out of this for a while now but I'm guessing you wouldn't need the .1 part, just a set of decent speakers will be fine

PC, for sure.

Suggest listening through many music playback systems (including stratospherically priced ones) before purchasing anything. That said after you have an idea of what you are looking for garage sales etc will likely be best source for best value (I spoke with someone in my locale last week who purchased a McIntosh amplifier for $10 at a garage sale and resold it for over $500 at eBay auction). Sometimes severely undervalued product pops up on Craigslist from private parties. www.audiogon.com is an excellent resource for quality playback equipment but with the significant market exposure (e.g. many users) any item listed below market value is sold within a couple hours.

If you’d like to contact me off forum I can make suggestions of exceptionally capable products at various $$$($$) ranges.

The problem is, in my city, we don't really have garage sales, nor do I know of any shops that sell higher-end speakers.. Plus, so far, I have no reference to compare the sound to..

If I understand correctly, optimal set up would be bookshelf speakers + amplifier + eventually subwoofer?

Also, I'm kind of limited by things we have in sale in my country (Czech Republic), and the fact that everything is more expensive here - and because of shipping rates I can't order from overseas..

I remember listening to very nicely sounding Czech-made two-way monitors a few years ago. Don't recall the name though.

Another way to go is to use powered loudspeakers, e.g., active studio monitors, with a subwoofer if you feel you need one.

Give these a listen if you can.

http://www1.bowers-wilkins.com/display.asp...=2311&sc=hf

If you add a decent subwoofer at a later time, the sound will really come to life.

Spend more on speakers if you can.

The Tannoy Mercury F1 Custom are also in your price range and are also superb speakers.

Regarding price/performance I can recommend anything from the nuBox line from Nubert in Germany. They ship to the Czech Republic and you are protected by European consumer protection laws. You can send them back for a full refund if you don't like them. They start at 280,- € a pair and even the small ones are already excellent. The nuBox 681s for 980,- € are probably already better than anything most people have heard in their life.

Good amplifiers are being built for at least 25 years. Get an old premium one at Ebay (e. g. Luxman) instead of a cheap new one. You can find excellent pieces below 100 €. For soundcards I can recommend a M-Audio Audiophile 2496 or Terratec EWX 24/96. Many HA users seem to use these. I have one lying around since switching to Mac, so drop me a line via PM if you need one. But many cards just one level above the consumer/gamer class will do fine.

I'm not affiliated with Nubert. I don't even own any of their speakers (but Elac). But if I would have to buy today and keep an eye on the price I would go for Nubert.

I can recommend Panasonic micro-systems (the ones with three-way speakers). Not "audiophile-grade", but they are affordable and - the most important - can be found in shop near you, so you can check the sound personally before buying.

I am not sure what the price range is, but Yamaha Pianocraft systems used to get very good opinions.

Wouldnt it be better to buy only speakers, instead of microsystem tho?

I was thinking about it and came to conclusion that I can't really go and listen to the speakers personally, because I don't think there are any shops that would sell speakers like those anywhere near - and I can't travel 4 hours to take a listen to speakers, for both economical and time reasons..



I'm kind of afraid of buying anything from ebay, because of the insane shipping prices (100-200 dollars) and troubles with returning.. And I can't really tell which are good and which not, because I'm really a noob in this..

I'll take a look at the Nubert ones, though it seems shipping would cost about 60 euro..

In the meantime, can someone recommend me good reciever for fair price? I was thinking about buying the reciever before the speakers.. How much would one cost me?

You will need an amplifier anyway, unless you buy powered speakers

I just put together a nice-sounding little stereo for someone - a nice starter system that came from the a local appliance chain store.

Sherwood 2 channel receiver - about $80
A pair of small 2-way Infinity Monitor speakers with 6 1/2" woofers - about $80 each
An inexpensive DVD player - about $50

A good micro-system will deliver balanced, pleasant sound in compact dimensions, while providing enough loudness for a living room.

I presume that "monitor speakers" tend to sound flat and neutral, which seems to be an odd choice for regular consumers.

I have yet to find one micro system that sounds acceptable for its price. Usually a first step up from very cheap audio setups are active commodity speakers (e. g. Logitech) in the 60-100 € price range. There you'll find an entry plateau. Many people are already satisfied with that and it's usually a huge upgrade vs. speakers that came with their computer. You can buy about the same quality level for at least 50% more money in a complete Micro System with plastic speakers. I don't see much sense in that. They sound ok on the first look but frequency response is usually a nightmare. For example, extremely boosted bass in the 100 Hz range to cover the non existent sub range or boosted highs to mask their extreme mids. I would never call that "balanced". If you want better speakers for Micro Systems, you have to pay also for a lot of extra features, that you don't need, in the main unit.

For 300 € there's still not much to gain (like a whole new dimension) for Micro Systems, but you can already buy some real speakers with excellent drivers in solid enclosures (important to avoid resonance) and cross a new boundary regarding good sound.

I would save my money until that point and buy the speakers first, if you have at least some amp, capable of at least 20 Watts (RMS), and later add a better amp or receiver. Give the Nuberts a try. Even including the expensive shipping they are still a deal. They save the costs for distribution and marketing and spread the word only by recommendations and good reviews. You can only buy directly from the manufacturer and these savings are priced in. Take a look at their references. These magazines are respectable sources and not some monster cable praising industry ponies.

Edit: I have indeed found some very trustable reviews for the Yamaha Pianocrafts (recommended by pawelq) in the 300-400 € price range. That really looks like a good alternative. Last time I checked this market segment is quite a while ago. Seems that it has evolved substantially since then.

I would still go for high class single components, though, and buy them piece by piece over time as I could save the money.

Yeah, I'll do that, what should I buy frist, though? Because, right now, I have Manta MM1250 Barrel speakers, so I don't think a reciever would help..

By the way, I looked at some of the recievers I should be ableto buy, and those are the ones I saw so far with good things said about them:
Onkyo - A 9155
YAMAHA RX-V 363 T
Sony STR-DG520
Yamaha HTR-6130 B
ONKYO T-4355
Yamaha RX-397
HARMAN/KARDON CA280E
Sony STR-DE197

What do you think?

I've got recent personal experience with the Sony STR-DE197, and it seems fine. I was offered one for the same price as the Sherwood reciever I mentioned in the previous post. I like the ergonomics of the Sony a little better than the Sherwood. The Sony might be a bit more powerful.

I think the Sony STR-DE197 is not rated for 4 ohm speakers, only 8-16 ohm. You should get an amp rated for 4 ohm speakers if you are planning to use it as a base for higher class speakers.

That's a common misapprehension about power amplifiers - that not being rated for 4 ohm speakers means that something bad will happen if you try to use them with 4 ohm speakers.

I've *broken* this rule dozens of times without any ill effects. The origin of the misapprehension is the fact that bench testing with test signals is far more thermally stressful than actual use with music.

Bench testing involves continuous waveforms, which have far less energy then even the most heavily compressed music. It also involves low resistance dummy loads that again put far more thermal stress on the amplifier than just about any real world speaker.

So no, the STR-DE197 will not test out very well if you try to drive a 4 ohm resistive dummy load with full-power continuous sine waves. It will probably overheat and shut itself down before any of the legally required tests can complete.

If you restrict yourself to 4 ohm loadspeakers and music, movies, or speech there will be no problems. I've tried it for myself.

Well, it's no evil industry conspiracy, either. It may work, but as with all electronic components average lifetime depends mainly on the temperature envelope operated in. Sudden changes of energy flow (as in music) can even cause more mechanical stress for your components than continuous higher temperatures (as long as they are within specs), although only the latter set off the inert shutdown provisions.

So why should I drive an amp outside its spec, when there are both 8 ohm speakers and 4 ohm amps available as alternative?

Ok, I'm kinda confused now, and since I'm using to blast some really harsh noise lately.. I guess I will keep that in mind..
So, page for one of the Onkyos says "65 W/Ch Minimum into 4 Ohms, 1 kHz, 2 Channels Driven, IEC ", does it mean I can use that?

Sorry about the lots of stupid questions, I'm just really lost..

I had a look at the specs of the Onkyo A-9155 (the T-4355 is just a tuner) and the Yamaha RX-397. They are both very solid amplifiers according to their specs, capable of 4 ohm loads. The RX-V 363 T has the added benefit of a good integrated digital-to-analog converter. You could use digital outs from your computer to connect to that with good quality, but its amplifier part is not as good as the other two.

Unless you're really blasting your speakers, the impedance of the speakers will have negligable effect on the operating temperatures of your receiver.

Most receiver output stages run in what is known as class AB, which means that there is a steady idling current flowing thorugh the output stage, even when there is no music playing. This of course causes heat. Most people rarely if ever push their recievers hard enough to even exceed the heat caused by idling.



Why should everybody worry about things that won't ever happen to most people?

The only reasonble answer to that is that your needs are special, and you will frequently drive the %!$$ out of your receiver. Well then OK get yourself some high-powered separates. ;-)

The irony is that an amp that if you do the math or the bench tests, an amp that is rated at 100 WPC into 8 ohms will generally easily and cooly deliver 70 WPC into 4 ohms.

Receiver manufacturer's like to play ratings games. For example, the same receiver that delivers 125 wpc @ 1% THD will also deliver 100 wpc @ 0.1% THD (or so) and maybe 0.02% THD at 85 WPC.

Want a receiver with less distortion or one that will power lower impedance loads?

Just cut the rated power rating!

Do remember that the efficiency of the speakers you choose will have an effect on the amount of amplifier power you'll need.
Another factor is how loud you tend to listen.

I used to be partial to high-power solid-state amps (100 w/ch+), but these days I tend to prefer higher-efficiency (90 dB+) speakers, allowing me to use lower-power tube and digital (~ 15 w/ch) amplifiers.