I've just finished building some high end speakers. Click here for more details. They sound really nice except for the level of detail that they reveal in the highs. So much so that it revealed the limitations of my iPod nano. The iPod nano (second gen) has very harsh highs regardless of the bit rate. Even tried lossless to no avail. Tried going from the headphone output to a line output. It was better but still not nirvana. I've tried my laptop as a source and it's better... but still not nirvana. I've dug out my 1990 Sony CD player and it has improved things quite a bit but I'm still looking for more.
Should I invest in some sort of lossless server/speaker extender solution... or just get a newer CD player?
I have a raid/NAS I could use to store my CDs in lossless format. Any idea on how to get my amp a really clean signal from the NAS? A laptop with an external DAC/soundcard? Off the shelf solution like Apple's speaker extenders? At this point I don't trust apple so much for SQ. But I do want something small and clean looking. Last I checked, Sonos was pricey.
Open to suggestions for an affordable CD player...
What say you?
Peter
Full Version: Need a cleaner source
QUOTE (peter_m @ May 31 2009, 00:07) 
They sound really nice except for the level of detail that they reveal in the highs. So much so that it revealed the limitations of my iPod nano. The iPod nano (second gen) has very harsh highs regardless of the bit rate.
How do you know that the problem is not in your speakers, maybe they have overemphasized highs and would sound like that with any source?
QUOTE (pawelq @ May 30 2009, 23:41)
How do you know that the problem is not in your speakers, maybe they have overemphasized highs and would sound like that with any source?
I don't know it for sure. Could be the amp, the speakers or the source. Only know that things improved every time I changed source and that my best source so far has been a 1990 CD player... Did you read my previous post?
Yes I did, it seemed though that you are unhappy with all sources you tried, thus I started suspecting the speakers.
QUOTE (pawelq @ May 31 2009, 00:15)
Yes I did, it seemed though that you are unhappy with all sources you tried, thus I started suspecting the speakers.
Technically every source has exhibited a different "sound". Some were better, some were worst. I also know I have no really clean sources. iPods and laptops are far from reference quality sources. Just looking for a cleaner source if you have any to suggest.
quote name='peter_m' date='May 31 2009, 06:07' post='638086'
> What say you?
Nirvana may be your problem. It is straightforward and cheap to convert a digital signal to the corresponding analogue signal in an audibly neutral manner (i.e. perfect to the ear). Whatever you are doing at the moment may not be achieving this but as a task it is neither difficult nor expensive.
> Should I invest in some sort of lossless server/speaker extender solution... or
> just get a newer CD player?
In order to change the sequence of 1s and 0s being delivered, the source of a digital signal needs to be broken. In this case, the influence on the sound quality is usually not subtle. So it is extremely unlike there is going to be a difference in using your computer, CD, ipod or whatever as a digital source.
The digital-to-analogue conversion might be a source of sound quality loss but a number of cheap on board sound chips are audibly neutral these days. Portable players will often only deliver an analogue signal forcing you to use their DAC and amplfication of the analogue signal. This may not be audibly neutral given the limited power supply, desire to get costs down and the minimal weighting given by the market to audibly neutral performance.
A safe, conservative, flexible choice might be:
1. extract only a digital source from the PC, CD and portable player
2. feed digital signal to a separate good quality DAC to get a line level analogue signal
3. preamplifier to switch between other analogue sources and provide a volume control
4. power amplifiers
5. speakers
The separate DAC should not need to cost more than, say, $25 but a few years ago I bought a small USB powered consumer DAC around this price and the sound is slightly different to a more expensive DAC I have more confidence in. Unless neutral sound quality becomes a factor in customers choosing one cheap consumer devices over another I suspect this risk is likely to remain.
> What say you?
Nirvana may be your problem. It is straightforward and cheap to convert a digital signal to the corresponding analogue signal in an audibly neutral manner (i.e. perfect to the ear). Whatever you are doing at the moment may not be achieving this but as a task it is neither difficult nor expensive.
> Should I invest in some sort of lossless server/speaker extender solution... or
> just get a newer CD player?
In order to change the sequence of 1s and 0s being delivered, the source of a digital signal needs to be broken. In this case, the influence on the sound quality is usually not subtle. So it is extremely unlike there is going to be a difference in using your computer, CD, ipod or whatever as a digital source.
The digital-to-analogue conversion might be a source of sound quality loss but a number of cheap on board sound chips are audibly neutral these days. Portable players will often only deliver an analogue signal forcing you to use their DAC and amplfication of the analogue signal. This may not be audibly neutral given the limited power supply, desire to get costs down and the minimal weighting given by the market to audibly neutral performance.
A safe, conservative, flexible choice might be:
1. extract only a digital source from the PC, CD and portable player
2. feed digital signal to a separate good quality DAC to get a line level analogue signal
3. preamplifier to switch between other analogue sources and provide a volume control
4. power amplifiers
5. speakers
The separate DAC should not need to cost more than, say, $25 but a few years ago I bought a small USB powered consumer DAC around this price and the sound is slightly different to a more expensive DAC I have more confidence in. Unless neutral sound quality becomes a factor in customers choosing one cheap consumer devices over another I suspect this risk is likely to remain.
QUOTE (honestguv @ May 31 2009, 02:37)
The separate DAC should not need to cost more than, say, $25 but a few years ago I bought a small USB powered consumer DAC around this price and the sound is slightly different to a more expensive DAC I have more confidence in. Unless neutral sound quality becomes a factor in customers choosing one cheap consumer devices over another I suspect this risk is likely to remain.
Does anyone have a suggestion for a descent USB DAC without spending hundreds of $$$? I think I am leaning towards the DAC solution due to not having to handle CD anymore.
Is there any evidence corroborating the claim that the 2nd generation iPod Nano has harsh highs?
A properly level-matched blind test would be a start and far more convincing than what has been demonstrated in the OP which at this point is not exactly consistent with this forum's terms of service.
Due diligence would suggest that we get to the bottom of the issue before throwing money at a problem that may not exist.
A properly level-matched blind test would be a start and far more convincing than what has been demonstrated in the OP which at this point is not exactly consistent with this forum's terms of service.
Due diligence would suggest that we get to the bottom of the issue before throwing money at a problem that may not exist.
Posted RMAA of wrong model, ignore.
How is the Nano being connected as a source? When you said you switch from headphone to line I assume you are using a dock?
QUOTE (Soap @ May 31 2009, 13:50)
How is the Nano being connected as a source? When you said you switch from headphone to line I assume you are using a dock?
I'm using a cable that connects in the same port as a dock would and gives me line outputs. The iPod's volume control is rendered useless in this setup. But it's not a dock...
I think you need a PC-based source that is considered reasonably trustworthy for both playback and recording, so you can perform your own RMAA measurements for both it and the iPod - and perhaps even do a blind test between the iPod and the sound card with a friend's help. Depending on the location of your PC, whether it's a laptop or a desktop etc I'd say either a USB/Firewire or an internal PCI card are both good options.
Such a source should be available for $200, tops. One fairly canonical choice right now is the EMU 0404 USB ($200) which has extremely good playback and recording performance, and oodles of pro audio options. The internal EMU 0404 ($100) is a good option too. Or the M-Audio Audiophile internal/external cards... Focusrite Saffire series although that's getting a little spendy... you have lots of options.
Keep in mind that if you get an audio interface with a built in preamp that may let you do your own frequency response measurements if you get a decent mic.
Personally I agree with the rest of the replies here and you're likely projecting characteristics of the speakers onto the iPod. It's what I would perceive. Judging from the response plots I've seen on the DXT2.5, you might simply be dealing with a response that does not have as much HF rolloff as you are perhaps used to. Or you're dealing with a fault in the speakers or perhaps the iPod - but you'll need to do more testing to say that conclusively.
Such a source should be available for $200, tops. One fairly canonical choice right now is the EMU 0404 USB ($200) which has extremely good playback and recording performance, and oodles of pro audio options. The internal EMU 0404 ($100) is a good option too. Or the M-Audio Audiophile internal/external cards... Focusrite Saffire series although that's getting a little spendy... you have lots of options.
Keep in mind that if you get an audio interface with a built in preamp that may let you do your own frequency response measurements if you get a decent mic.
Personally I agree with the rest of the replies here and you're likely projecting characteristics of the speakers onto the iPod. It's what I would perceive. Judging from the response plots I've seen on the DXT2.5, you might simply be dealing with a response that does not have as much HF rolloff as you are perhaps used to. Or you're dealing with a fault in the speakers or perhaps the iPod - but you'll need to do more testing to say that conclusively.
QUOTE (peter_m @ May 31 2009, 00:07)
I've just finished building some high end speakers. Click here for more details. They sound really nice except for the level of detail that they reveal in the highs. So much so that it revealed the limitations of my iPod nano. The iPod nano (second gen) has very harsh highs regardless of the bit rate. Even tried lossless to no avail. Tried going from the headphone output to a line output. It was better but still not nirvana. I've tried my laptop as a source and it's better... but still not nirvana. I've dug out my 1990 Sony CD player and it has improved things quite a bit but I'm still looking for more.
The DTX tweeter spec sheets show that they have flatter off-axis response than most comparable drivers. In a normal reverberent room, that could easily translate into the perception of a hotter and even possibly harsher high end. In a very reflective environment, they might even be a bit painful.
I personally don't think that a serious loudspeaker installation doesn't lack an equalizer to touch up the interfacing between the speakers and the room.
Problem has been isolated:
Don't know how or why but some song files created with EAC(XP) and Lame (don't remember the version) have harsh highs when the track gets loud. When I import the same CD via iTunes (iMac) at about the same bit rate (224 VBR) I get no harshness what so ever. Things are smooth again on the iPod... Was hard to find because it happened only an specific "loud" parts of specific tracks as opposed to all the time... All is well again.
Still have a question about an 18 year old CD player. Would a later model sound any different or better?
Peter
Don't know how or why but some song files created with EAC(XP) and Lame (don't remember the version) have harsh highs when the track gets loud. When I import the same CD via iTunes (iMac) at about the same bit rate (224 VBR) I get no harshness what so ever. Things are smooth again on the iPod... Was hard to find because it happened only an specific "loud" parts of specific tracks as opposed to all the time... All is well again.
Still have a question about an 18 year old CD player. Would a later model sound any different or better?
Peter
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