Recently someone postet a link to a youtube video portraing greek audiophiles. I think it's quite a revealing inside into the psyche of (not just some greek) audiophiles. Perhaps the most interesting part is when they are asked for the amount of money they spend in their systems. You see their women sitting next to them, showing some kind of disapproval and admiration at the same time... you can read it from their faces "Yeah I know, my husband is nutty for spending that much money on his hobby. But isn't it sexy that he can afford to be that nutty?"
I think that's the very proof that audiophilism isn't primarily about the music but about status, just like big cars and all the other things: there are virtually no female audiophiles. Personally I don't know any female but a whole lot of male audiophiles. Of course there are frenetic music lovers in each gender. But woman generally are content with a good sounding stereo. They don't feel the audiophile's urge to buy more and more irrationally expensive equipment. Why not? Because society demands other status symbols from woman. The man shows his "potence" by expensive technical equipment, the woman by expensive decoration. It's that simple, isn't it?

So here's the argumentation again in short form:

1. There is an equal number of female and male music lovers.
2. There are (virtually) no female audiophiles.
3. Thus audiophilism isn't about music but is some gendered phenomena (i.e. male status symbols)

Fascinating. But you know, I think it´s a bit of a cliché to say that women like to decorate things while men are buying big cars, fancy stereo systems etc.

Years ago, in the german audiophile magazine AUDIO there was something about a couple who did the usual audiophile stuff. From the article it appeared that actually the women was moving the loudspeakers around, buying cables etc. In the article she was quite vocal about several advantages some cables gave her.

Years ago I sold my old Sennheiser HD-580 on eBay. I exchanged a few mails with the buyer - it turned out to be a woman. Personally I would think that the HD-580 is a bit beyond the "good stereo equipment" you mentionend and far nearer to "audiophilism" than other products. This lady (who was an expert on Sennheiser) expressed how only Sennheiser could produce the good sound she was expecting and that she was frequently ridiculed by male friends and colleagues for her - at times - expensive hobby (!).

I could say the same about gay people... that they only care about Madonna´s new album, looking good, going to the hairdressers etc. instead of being interested in audiophile things. I´m gay (and obviously my boyfriend too) and I´m very interested in those audiophile things. I sometimes even do stuff that is considered to be stupid around here. My boyfriend instead ridicules me for having "bat ears", he´s more interested in his work or in being prepared for our retirement (which lies some 30-40 years ahead). And he´s not the type that comes running from the kitchen when I do something with the stereo In fact, he doesn´t seem to hear very good. But then, he´s not interested in this.

So, be careful. I think you are falling for a cliché.

You reckon? I thought they were just horrified.

I know the look - I'm married - it's the "this stupid thing you've done is going to be remembered for the next decade" look!

If there was a second thought in their minds, I think it was "why doesn't he spend this money on me - or the kids - or the house - or just anything other than this crap!"

I also reckon they might have said some of this, had the cost not been been revealed in front of a camera and other people.


BUT I think you're dead right about the gender thing*, and some of the motivation - and maybe before marriage girls are a little impressed (maybe subconsciously) by the boy with the most cool "stuff" (whatever that may be). Problem is, us boys don't know when to stop!

* - in general - of course there will be exceptions, and a range/spectrum of behaviour - but I think we can generalise a bit.

Cheers,
David.

Let me guess - you've been married for less than a decade? Otherwise you'd know that it will be remembered *forever*!
Women never forget their husbands' transgressions, no matter how trivial. They forgive, but don't forget.

The way to head this off regarding audio purchases is to involve them in the buying decision and get their agreement. Emotionally they can't deny you, because deep down they know that they make equally crazy purchases (clothes, shoes, etc).

Regarding the original subject matter - could it be anything to do with the fact that women empathise with people, while men empathise with machines?

Obsessive hobbyists and collectors tend to be male. Not exclusively - Enid Lumley was one of the most fruit-cake of audiophile writers in the 1980s - but we take the majority share of the hobby. And hobbies in general - obsessive book collectors, musical instrument collectors and even butterfly collectors are predominantly male too.

Why is another matter. Perhaps it's that Asperger Syndrome is more common in males that females.

I've also never quite understood why the obsession is almost always inversely proportional to its potential utility. Why do I have no interest in taking the washing machine apart, even though it now sounds like it's half-filled with concrete blocks, but have infinite patience in stripping down the Gaggia four times a year, despite its alarming habit of working perfectly?

Cavaille, I'm surprised, yet it seemed totally clear to me that you were female! First off your way of writing and secondly, if I remember it correctly, at least Axon has called you "she" in the past without objection.

It's interesting what you pointed out. I was aware of the fact that women are not this much interested but when you think about it there shouldn't be a reason for this to be.

Jerry

This is like an evolutionary psychologist's wet dream. By which I mean, a lot of assumptions from "just-so" observations. Instead of male/female distinctions by virtue of gender, think maybe it would be more reasonable to think about cultural/societal expectations or conventions.

Well, I expected someone to come up with a counter example as Cavaille did. And certainly there will be some. That doesn't change that fact, however, that the vast majority of audiophiles are male.
Of course he is right, calling that over-simplified role models I mentioned a cliché. But they are a cliché most of us have internalized from early childhood on. Boys are given toy cars to play with, girls get puppies. Most of our role models are nothing but patriarchal cliches passed from one generaton to another. Some radical gender theorist may claim that there is nothing beyond convention, but I think that's nonesense. Man isn't reducible to his biology (woman neither ), but there is an empirical nature to everything - which becomes apparent, for instance, when oppressive conventions are established against that nature, i.e. homosexuallity had been condemned in western culture for centuries but as we know today, it's a common phenomenon in many species.
Look alone at Hydrogen Audio, I guess at least 80% of the members here are male. That's because we all learned that technics are for boys. That's what we have in common with the audiophiles. The difference is, that most people here are interested in the matter, whereas audiophiles are interested in the myth (and it's effects on others).

Some time ago when Cavaille referred to a "boyfriend" I too was left wondering between the two interpretations. But since then, with this in the back of my mind, I was never struck in Cavaille's further writing by anything that would have indicated one or the other, at least to me.

Ok, I'm not married but engaged for quite some years, so I know what you're meaning

But I really think there's that other side to their reaction. Let's wade knee-deep into that evil evolutionary psychology here: in many species the male individuals show some signs of useless decoration or behavoir, think of the peacocks feathers. These features are not just utterly useless but tend to be an evolutionary disadvantage. Why did they nevertheless develop them? The established theory says they did because it show's they are that fit that they can even afford such useless stuff. Voila, here we have the audiophile

One of the editors of What Hi-Fi? is a woman. That's a great magazine Honest.

Really? I never thought that my writing style could be considered as feminin. But as we are talking about clichés... well here it goes: I like cars and technically I know quite a bit about them, I do like action movies, Star Trek... you know, all the typical "heterosexual" nerd-stuff, I listen to filmmusic a lot (which generally is considered totally un-gay). The gay clichés I fulfill are as follows: I like Madonna & Kylie, I like to dress nice, I mostly take good care of myself (I´m a bit vain), I´m good looking if I can say so myself and I can´t conceal that I´m gay, it always shows. So you see, one can´t make general assumptions about gender.

And I didn´t object to the "she" because it didn´t seem necessary to me.


And I thought you guys weren´t reading the posts of members here carefully. Well, I have to erase that prejudice.

Back to the topic: I still stand to my first post but I´d like to add something I forgot. Since I´m listening to filmscores for many years now I´m well aware that almost no women are listening to them. I´m quite active in several filmmusic related forums and I´ve never encountered a female filmmusic lover before. It would be a first and I´d be delighted.

The funny thing about audiophile system is: They are BIG. Big amplifiers, big cables, massive use of mechanical engineering (see turntables), therefore everybody can see it and watch things moving and of cause manual operation.

I think that's the point. Modern HiFi is not visible and big, it's invisible and tiny. Save all your music and more on a 1TB 2.5" HD, compared to a audiophile turntable the HD isn't impressive.

my wife couldn't tell the difference between MLP and MP3.

Hey guys and gals, isn't fair to say that well--fellas love their toys/equipment, and gals and their pals, love to decorate?.For the most part!..
Guess I'm just from the K.I.I.S school of thought..

Probably why things like that stick in my mind is that it is extremely rare for someone who is identifiably female to post often or over a long period here. When it happens it brings a fresh perspective in general. and in topics like this one in particular. I guess I should extend that to getting the gay perspective as well.

The hobby described by the word "audiophile" is collecting and listening to recorded music. Of course that requires audio equipment. from an iPOD to a $100,000 stereo system. Both men and women seem equally interested in music. The prices paid for the tools they use to play recorded music do not define whether or not they are "audiophiles" -- if they like listening to music, then they are audiophiles.

It's mainly men interested in the "tools" of the hobby, and many male audiophiles are also StereoEquipmentphiles (quite interested in audio hardware), but few female audiophiles are.

During 40+ years as an audiophile, the biggest collection of recorded music that I ever saw in someone's home was owned by a female audiophile. Her music was heard through a cheap stereo. So what -- she was still an audiophile.

I'm guilty of the same mistake as well. My apologies, Cavaille and thanks for the clarification.

While men and women both listen to music, I find that their musical tastes tend to be somewhat different, and that their preferred listening level and the amount of bass also tend to be different.

It's the same in my house. My collection is about twice as large as my girlfriend's counted in bytes, but hers is about twice as large as mine counted in seconds. She's totally satisfied with MP3 & AAC, rips CDs with iTunes and buys quite a few there, too. About 20% of her collection is a tagging nightmare, but she doesn't care. She also listens to her music a lot more than I do - on her iPod and on her Apple HiFi, which follows her around the house.

In comparison I spent much more on my gear, spend more time with collecting exclusive tunes, but actually enjoy all that much less often than she does.

And BTW, my parents tried to raise me without trying to predetermine my gender. But I never touched the dolls and went for Lego and electronics (in contrast to my sister). But of course all that is probably far from being representative.

I don't think that's how I'd defined an audiophile.

Most people these days have iPods filled with more music than almost anyone had a decade ago - they're not audiophiles.

Audiophiles are interested in the sound quality. Music fans aren't (necessarily). And audiophiles aren't necessarily that interested in music!

Cheers,
David.

I think you are right. By exact definition my GF is a serious music lover, but no audiophile. I probably am, though.

/me thinks you're a closeted heterosexual


Wait, are you saying you're a lesbian? I'm so confused…

Anyway, it's basically about obsessions. Men and women tend to obsess over different things.

I have to admit, I spent many hours a week and the the stereo store after finishing work during my public education years and observing the buyers interacting with the sales people it became apparent that the store was a primarily male environment. But the big spenders, like the one's who swore by Monster interconnects, oxygen-free copper speaker line and pure silver solder contacts, it would only be seconds after the door closed behind them that the sales people would start ragging them amongst themselves. I guess that mentality is akin to the usefulness of having a hood ornament on a car or something.

"The Dominator's a good marketing idea, but it's really not a good speaker...[they] are very popular with men who like to have bigger... uh--"

No, I am male and I am convinced that the high correlation between sex and gender is not mainly a result of social causation as it has been claimed in the past. But I have not more reference to offer right now than my personal experience and belief, that's why I called it not representational.

Ok, let's get back on topic, shall we?

"So what if it's as big as a Subaru and costs as much? You'll never have to trade this in! This is gonna be with you for the rest of your life! And when you die, they can BURY you in it!" (spoken, obviously, to a toung male customer:))

Oh wonderful! I love that movie. Bette Midler is gorgeous in it.

It could be that Men generally tend to play with toys more than women. When we were childs we had toys like cars, LEGO (I loved it) and now we have our expensive hobby. Just another toy really. As for some is the PC, the car (there it is again - only bigger and for real). It´s like a different form of comparing penises (is that allowed here??) I´d like again to extend this question to musical taste because that is important too.

Two weeks ago I was asked by someone who plays some instruments why I like classical music (beside filmmusic) while at the same time not coming from a family background where those music was played during my childhood. I couldn´t answer that question. One never played classical music at our house or at others but still I love it. The same with audiophilism. Not one in my family is interested in good playback/recording capabilities, I´m the only one and I still can remember when it started. It was back in 1987 with the new stereo system from my parents (something cheap from Schneider) and a CD borrowed from a neighbour that was supposed to be a "Test-CD". In reality it was "Time Warp" from TELARC. I think, what impressed me most back then was the deep bass and the explosive dynamic of that CD. Naturally I assumed that all CDs would sound that way. Well, that was spoiled when my parents bought some Pop samplers.

Interestingly, when it comes to technical stuff my mother is the expert. She knows how to handle the satellite receiver, the HDD-recorder, the GPS system. My father doesn´t know anything about it. He´s something like this: "Could you start the PC for me?" But when it comes to music both agree: they listen to radio all the time.

So, any similar experiences around here? Why do we listen to the music we listen to? Why are we interested in a good sounding system?

I think you answered the question yourself:Answer:I know it did with me, at least it gave me more of an audio "chubby" to listen to any kind of music through the Ampex integrated stereo than my own Radio Shack compact cassette recorder with the built-in mic.

Like any other phenomenon where the "brown" area is likely desensitized from everyday use, good stereos are better able to produce the outer extremes (in the case of the audible spectrum the low-end bass and upper high frequencies). So this can kindle exciting sensations from the simple fact that it's a more "lifelike" sound.

It also helps that acquiring this exciting sound is very expensive to impress one's peers , even though a hefty price is not indicative of audio "purity."

Pretty much every woman I've known throughout my life (mother, sister, relatives, girlfriends as well as my fiance) always seem to think that it's "too loud" or has too much bass. Come on, just because the dishes are no longer the same place they were in the cupboard doesn't mean it's too loud!