Very well said john33!

USA is thinking more distant to the future, even after Saddam. If nothing is done, Saddam's legacy, his sons, continue where he left. If Saddam and his sons can continue little by little building their military and especially since development goes on, it's every year easier and easier to make quickly and secretly biological and chemical weapons. They did those before, there's no reason why Saddam and his sons suddenly became "better persons".
There's every evidence that Saddam is lingering to the last second and only does as little as possible co-operation with the UN. Without USA's military threat, there sure wouldn't have been any kind of weapon inspections at all.

SK1, what you are talking is so absurd that isn't worth any comment.

Please, let the Israel/Palestine discussion for another thread.

Agreed. I'm not saying they were going to become "good" in the future. But what keeps the world from appliying that pressure as much time as needed so that Irak doesn't become a threat again?

Gee thanks for reasonable debate and explainations.
Seperate everything then. Us from them, their threat, your threat and our threat.
What ever. Bye.

The world has looked into Iraq and decided that Saddam is not doing what is best for his people. The world suggested (dictated?) what Saddam should do to improve the situation. Saddam refused. Parts of the world decided that it had gone on long enough, and other parts of the world think that he still has a chance.

Personally, I see Saddam as a cancer. At first, you don't notice it. But then it grows and eventually kills you. In order to stop it, you have it removed. If you don't remove it completely, it starts to grow again and you gain nothing but a few years of peace in the interim. Is this not how things have progressed?

I know that there will never be peace in the Middle East. There are too many radically different religions fostering radically different societies and resulting in radically different lifestyles. And these radically different lifestyles are in much too small an area... much too close a proximity. It would be nice of the Middle East could be placed in a bubble where the people could bicker amongst themselves while the rest of the world went about it's business, but I know that's not possible. So the only option for the world is to look into its parts and decide what can be done and what will have global influences. Then the world can decide which of those global influences are for the benefit of the world and which of those should be stopped (and which of those *can* be stopped).

I cannot say whether or not my country is doing the "right thing". Those who make the decisions know far more than I do. However, I do know that a decision was made. I happen to agree that the world would be better off were Saddam not in power. Whether or not I agree with the decision, I feel it is for the common good and therefore I support it.

I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying that israelis are not doing any harm to palestinians?
It's weird, because I used to be more on the side of Israel just about 6-10 months ago, but then I saw few documents (which were filmed by western film groups) which totally made me realize that israelis and palestinians are just as bad both.

It probably comes as surprise to many people that israelis killed at least double the amount of palestinians last year (majority can't be counted as terrorists) than died by palestinian terrorists. Although it was not the death tolls that made me think. It was simply the attitudes of the israeli people living in the colonies who were interviewed. They simply didn't regard palestinians as humans, more like animals and terrorists. I don't know which is worse, the thing that palestinian suicide bombers blow themselves up killing families, or israeli caterpillars killing palestinian families to their homes, when the homes are destroyed because new israeli colonies will be built.

My opinion is that both israelis and palestinians are just as bad. But in both camps there are people who are strongly against the violance. According to a few documents, there's a small but increasing number of (ex)-soldiers from privates to higher ranking officers in Israel who would die for defending their country but absolutely don't agree with what is happening in colonies and refused to serve their time in the colonies. It was sure nice to see, that even some soldiers realize what is really happening in the illegal colonies, and that it is wrong.

So you mean that USA should keep this kind of military power which makes Saddam to co-operate in the Gulf year after year after year? Even though USA is the richest country in the world, even it has not that kind of money. Not to mention the ever lasting insecurity what would follow. The world would just slow down completely.. The world economy,development, everything.

This thread hasn't been closed yet???

Damn, come on, Mr Moderators/Admins...

Well, I'd say they will spend more in this war than would have spent in 10 or 20 years of just pressure. I didn't see any complaint from USA and UK of military pressure being too expensive, I mean, AFAIK that is not even a reason they used for the attack.

Why? As long as this keeps in control there's no reason to close this. But make no mistake, I'm wathing it..

Well, the military power needed to pressure Saddam nowadays to co-operate really costs a fortune, although of course war is gonna cost temporarely relatively much more. But the biggest issue imo is that it's really not an option that the world is in so insecure state for tens of years. The military threat which made Saddam to co-operate even a little bit means, that it must be strong enough for possible severe actions against Iraq. This would keep the whole world in constant insecure state for years and years to come, since USA could use the force anytime (otherwise there really wouldnt be any threat and Saddam wouldn't co-operate).
It just wouldn't work, and it would cause severe global depression and development slowdowns far to the future. And Saddam is not the only bad guy in the world..

You have no idea what you're saying. But of course, you don't live here and you get to hear and read the twisted stuff only.
Look, if you are an israeli, and you go in to Gaza, very soon you will be beaten and most probably killed by an arab mob. It's not an assumption nor a myth, it is the plain truth and it has happened many times.
If western film groups is what you consider a source for learning, not to mention, learning truths, you are very wrong.

This is so unbelieveably ridiculous. This is not the truth. If you think it is, better think again.
The majority is indeed terrorism supporters. If anyone tells you otherwise, it's either because they don't know what they're saying, or lying to you.
Did you even stop to think that they may be showing you only the interviews with the most fanatic israeli people who live in the colonies so that you'll get only a bad impression?
And in any case, there's a reason to their opinions on palestinians, the vast majority will kill you if you set foot in gaza.

What israeli caterpillars killing families to their homes what the FUCK?? Sorry but what the FUCK are you talking about? Such a thing never, EVER happend nor will happen. This is another IDIOTIC lie, which i find quite hard to believe you believe. Such a thing NEVER HAPPENED, period. Israelies don't blow themselves up! Israelis don't perform terrorism acts upon palestinians! Israeli's don't wreck LEGAL homes! Not to mention with PEOPLE inside (oh my god how stupid). They just DON'T. So that new israeli colonies will be built? Almost any israeli would tell you "where do you live, in space or something? i'd never go live there if i'd get a million dollars". Because of the simple reason they will be killed by the palestinians surrounding them.

Sure, israelis are just as bad as the majority of palestinians who are terrorism supporters and/or terrorists. Israelis murder families in the middle of the night in their own homes too, sure.
If anyone in a palestinian community is against the violence you can be pretty sure John, that this person will be killed by people from his community. NO palestinian will say to you "i'm against the terrorism acts being done on israelis". NO ONE.

Those soldiers who "realize" what is "really" happening in the "illegal" colonies are probably less than half percent of all soldiers, and are either mind numb idiots or liers. The media will show you the twisted of all.

It is frustrating to see that people are so ignorant about what's happening in Israel. And believe so idiotic lies.

Pfff, go read some real stuff and educate yourself. http://www.idf.il/iraq/english/info.stm

@SK1

I find it very distasteful what you are saying. Here are a few facts, personally I believe Israel to be the heart of the problem in the middle east, that and years of manipulation by America in that region.

These are facts not in dispute, Israel has illegally from the international stand point occupied foreign territories. Israel 'stole' uranium from America to create its nuclear weapons. Israel has not complied with more UN resolutions than any other nation in the world. I also find it distasteful of the Israeli army goes against unarmed / lightly armed civilians in the name of 'wiping of terrorists'. It is also bad timing of the Americans to announce a 9 billion bail out deal (of that billions in arms) for Israel at the start of the Iraq campaign.

For reference I have grown up with the Terrorist threat in the UK from Ireland, but not for 1 second would I advocate sending tanks into Ireland to crush the locals, luckily neither did the government and we have peace at the moment.

BTW I am not an Arab, not a Muslim, not an American hater.

I didn't mean to draw a straight parallel in the whole situation, but the means were used.
Really, the Bush/Blair goals can't encourage people to stand another bombings. For them it's the same 'external invasion/defending independance' situation, I believe.

It's UN (which was the main achievement of international community after WWII) role to decide what's need to be done about the situation.
But the new coalition has taken that part from it, as they believe that both iraqi people and UN are unable to do that right thing.

An American Peace lady killed in such activity...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_ea...ast/2856433.stm

From the "international standpoint" arab nations "illegally" tried to take over all of israel by joining all their forces together.
Israel doesn't steal shit from America. Go tell that to someone else.
Israel has not complied with the UN because israel unlike the UN has a need to fight terrorism, not support it.
Israeli army forces never go against unarmed, where the heck did you hear/read/see this? More arab media?
Israel in case you don't know, is America's most important ally in this war, America needs to support Israel just like Israel supports America.

I don't subscribe to this - there are small optimistic signs which give me hope.

Whilst is may be human nature for different religious and ethnic groups to fight, it's not universal. There are plenty of European cities where a greater mix of people live together than in the middle east, and they don't kill each other.

I don't know what the rest of the world is like (though I know I sensed 10 times more black/white division present in the USA than I've ever noticed at home), but in the UK it's normal for kids from different religions and races to go to school together, be friends, and their families live alongside each other. OK, so we also have Northern Ireland and the BNP (a fascist political party), but not every mixing of races and religions has to result in conflict.

When people don't feel under threat, but feel secure and well off, and part of a multicultural society (there's a buzz word for you!), they don't tend to fight. Even if they live next door to each other.

But people in the UK aren't generally fed race-hate material from birth - in fact the media (especially the BBC) try very hard to promote the opposite - a liberal, tolerant society.

I'm not saying the UK is particularly good at this (though I can think of countries who are worse) - just saying that there is hope.

Most western nations are much further on with racial and religious tolerance (and better) than they were this time last century. Maybe the Middle East can follow. one day.


Cheers,
David.

P.S. I feel a John Lennon song coming on! ;-)

True I don't live there, but it also means that I'm less biased. I'm certainly seen enough material from both sides (like I said, I was more on the side of Israel before, but now I'm not on either ones side), and somewhere in between is the truth. It always is.


Ok, and where did you get the information that they indeed are terrorism supporters? From the goverment supporting media? Or did you knew these people personally?
Well, from people living from colonies there were bad and worse impressions. And even without interviews they must know that they are moving to the areas where they shouldn't go according to UN resolution. I don't think I could get any good impression even if they wanted to give it.
So they are all animals and terrorists?

Yeah, when people die in home demolitions by israelis, it only gets news coverage when western people die also..
http://www.forward.com/issues/2003/03.03.2....21/news11.html
This was just an example though. Most palestinians die to the bullets of israeli soldiers.

Well.. If legal is defined by what UN says, then you are wrong.

Heh.. I can sure tell that you live in Israel.. It's totally impossible to be unbiased there. Notice that I'm not defending palestinians at all. All I'm saying that both sides are just as bad.

They were not idiots nor liers. In the document both the soldiers and their superiors were interviewed. If he/she refuses to serve on illegal colonies, you are out, as simple as that, even though the person would gladly serve in any other place.


I don't believe everything at all. But what I now believe is that the truth is somewhere in between. And that either side is not better than the other.

This never happened and there is no proof. All you have is a letter saying this is what happened. Got pictures damn it? This is a stupid lie,

Yes, it happened. It was here on TV, too (different stations, also EuroNews which isn't german). The other activists were at a police station and reported about it in shock, while holding her passport into the camera. There was a statement from the Israeli side saying it was an "unfortunate accident".

[quote=JohnV,Mar 20 2003 - 04:50 PM] [quote=SK1,Mar 20 2003 - 06:16 PM]You have no idea what you're saying. But of course, you don't live here and you get to hear and read the twisted stuff only.

If western film groups is what you consider a source for learning, not to mention, learning truths, you are very wrong.[/quote]
True I don't live there, but it also means that I'm less biased. I'm certainly seen enough material from both sides (like I said, I was more on the side of Israel before, but now I'm not on either ones side), and somewhere in between is the truth. It always is.

[quote]This is so unbelieveably ridiculous. This is not the truth. If you think it is, better think again.
The majority is indeed terrorism supporters. If anyone tells you otherwise, it's either because they don't know what they're saying, or lying to you.[/quote]
Ok, and where did you get the information that they indeed are terrorism supporters? From the goverment supporting media? Or did you knew these people personally?
[quote]Did you even stop to think that they may be showing you only the interviews with the most fanatic israeli people who live in the colonies so that you'll get only a bad impression?[/quote]Well, from people living from colonies there were bad and worse impressions. And even without interviews they must know that they are moving to the areas where they shouldn't go according to UN resolution. I don't think I could get any good impression even if they wanted to give it.
[quote]And in any case, there's a reason to their opinions on palestinians, the vast majority will kill you if you set foot in gaza.[/quote]So they are all animals and terrorists?

[quote]What israeli caterpillars  killing families to their homes what the FUCK?? Sorry but what the FUCK are you talking about? Such a thing never, EVER happend nor will happen. This is another IDIOTIC lie, which i find quite hard to believe you believe. Such a thing NEVER HAPPENED, period.[/quote]Yeah, when people die in home demolitions by israelis, it only gets news coverage when western people die also..
http://www.forward.com/issues/2003/03.03.2....21/news11.html
This was just an example though. Most palestinians die to the bullets of israeli soldiers.

[quote]Israeli's don't wreck LEGAL homes! [/quote]Well.. If legal is defined by what UN says, then you are wrong.

[quote]Sure, israelis are just as bad as the majority of palestinians who are terrorism supporters and/or terrorists. Israelis murder families in the middle of the night in their own homes too, sure.
If anyone in a palestinian community is against the violence you can be pretty sure John, that this person will be killed by people from his community. NO palestinian will say to you "i'm against the terrorism acts being done on israelis". NO ONE.[/quote]Heh.. I can sure tell that you live in Israel.. It's totally impossible to be unbiased there. Notice that I'm not defending palestinians at all. All I'm saying that both sides are just as bad.

[quote]Those soldiers who "realize" what is "really" happening in the "illegal" colonies are probably less than half percent of all soldiers, and are either mind numb idiots or liers. The media will show you the twisted of all.[/quote]They were not idiots nor liers. In the document both the soldiers and their superiors were interviewed. If he/she refuses to serve on illegal colonies, you are out, as simple as that, even though the person would gladly serve in any other place.

[quote]It is frustrating to see that people are so ignorant about what's happening in Israel. And believe so idiotic lies.[/quote]
I don't believe everything at all. But what I now believe is that the truth is somewhere in between. And that either side is not better than the other. [/quote]
[quote]Yeah, when people die in home demolitions by israelis, it only gets news coverage when western people die also..
http://www.forward.com/issues/2003/03.03.2....21/news11.html
This was just an example though. Most palestinians die to the bullets of israeli soldiers.[/quote]
Bullshit. Give a fucking single proof. This is a lie.
[quote]Well.. If legal is defined by what UN says, then you are wrong.[/quote]
Yeah, like that's important.
[quote]So they are all animals and terrorists?[/quote]
Did i say all or did i say majority? Or do you like inserting words into my mouth..
[quote]Heh.. I can sure tell that you live in Israel.. It's totally impossible to be unbiased there. Notice that I'm not defending palestinians at all. All I'm saying that both sides are just as bad.[/quote]
It has nothing to do with bias.
[quote]..they must know that they are moving to the areas where they shouldn't go according to UN resolution.[/quote]
"UN resolution" doesn't mean shit. UN has not shown complete objection to terrorism, whereas America and israel has. UN resolution basically, means shit, i consider them terrorist supporters, as well as israely army leaders.
[quote]Ok, and where did you get the information that they indeed are terrorism supporters? From the goverment supporting media? Or did you knew these people personally?[/quote]
Actually no, from [b]being there as well, personally[/q], and from many friends of mine who were.

Look, one incident happened and people decide that israelis ruin houses with people inside. TOUGH FUCKING LUCK, next time people shouldn't stand in front of Bulldozers!!! They should keep this kind of mind numb activity in their own country instead of being idiots here and getting hurt because of it.

So you and your friends were there when the alleged terrorists were killed.. That's interesting.

What war is that? terror? Iraq? or Arabs?

Seems to me SK1 that most of the free opinion of this board (from people spread out around the world) disagree with you. Israel & America are not the internation community, only a part of it.

Seems to me spoon that you try to make me look like hittler.
The WAR ON IRAQ if you DIDN'T UNDERSTAND CORRECTLY.

I'm actually surprised you didn't hear even about this case where western person was killed. I wonder how many similar cases people in Israel miss where palestinians are killed..

Funny.
Maybe i don't care about stupid news, but about important news? Thought about it?
Sadly i bet most people i know have heard about this.

I see.. So people dieing in home demolitions are just stupid non-important news. I sure get that kind of impression from you, true.

And here's another article of this "fucking lie":
http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/03/16/...eath/index.html

Well John, the arabs who built this house certainly were smart enough to FUCKING LISTEN and get the fuck away from there, but not those idiots, no, they have to risk their lives for a fucking illegal house, accidents can always happen and the arabs knew it, seems though that they didn't and payed the price for being worthless idiots.

Tell me SK1, would you say your views are representive of the Israeli people? I would also like to ask your age, much of what you are saying sounds (to me) immature.

Stay with your lies and support those who support terror. Why should i care? The sane people of the world, America and Israel are in war against the terrorists. You can whine all you want about how wrong it is and what ever, but the war continues. And the terrorist supporters are not going to stop it. I'm glad about this. I won't answer your questions spoon since they are worthless and only meant to make me look like an idiot. Go ahead, say i already did it myself.
No more comments from me in this topic. Don't care to change people's opinions here.

Good, that means the thread doesn't have to be locked.

Ok, so am I now supporting terrorists?...interesting as that would make me a terrorist and a legitimate target of Israel or America?

Maybe you could change your.

Even the CIA don't want to confirm that there is a link between Iraq and terrorism...

I know that Bush/Blair try to convinced us about that but I really don't think the terrorism is the issue here...

Here ya go, kid. Do you think an Israelian reporter would lie?
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...alestinians_550


CNN has a news piece about accident:
http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/03/17/...ence/index.html

News can be found from FOX News too if CNN is too liberal for you:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,81209,00.html
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,81242,00.html

Also, family of the killed peace activist seek investigation to matter. (Although i seriously suspect that the bulldozer who killed her won't ever be tried in justice or otherwise).
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...tester_killed_5


Hmm, i wonder who those Israelians are who have given their sympathy... definetely not SK1 and likes of him on both sides who have become "blinded" because of conflict.

So sad.

Maybe the CIA are not confirming anything because of, well.... read this www.latimes.com article written by Robert Scheer!

If you are not a registered member of Los Angeles Times, try here, or here!

Thx JEN.

Nice to see an US journalist telling that...

How true... I feel so sad. In my country (Spain), just a very few people supports the war; I'm tired hearing how my "leader" (?) tells a lot of lies every day. But this is the democracy: sometimes it has perverse effects.
Bad days for everyone...

<rant>
"Heil" to that. To put the whole middle east in isolation camps would be the best... Give some more lebensraum for the english speaking christians and their israeli friends instead.
</rant>

I hope this is not a common opinion in your country, and I sure hope that I misunderstood you. But you do send out the wrong signals with this comment...

Btw, could be about time now to close the thread?

As an American, one of my primary concerns about this whole mess, now that we are committed, is the cleanup. I'm really bothered by the Bush administration's diplomatic skills, and their apparent unwillingness to compromise with the leaders of other nations, many of which have been our longstanding allies. Something I don't think he failed to realise is that we need the UN to help us in post war Iraq.

Take the last two major US led operations Afghanistan and Serbia. Which two countries supplied the most peacekeepers once the bulk of the fighting was done? France and Germany. How many US troops will be required to stay and police Iraq, and how long will they be there to do so? This is something that the administration has failed to answer. This is also a task that would have been much easier had Bush cooperated with the UN, and had their full support before starting this war. Now, I'm not so sure. And, I for one, don't want to be drafted if the Bush team decides to go after another nation on the heels of Iraq and realises that we don't have the manpower to do so. North Korea is constantly pushing, seeing just how much it can get away with (in fact, South Korea has stepped up border patrol, for fear that the North will use the war in Iraq as a distraction for invasion), and Iran is going to be none to happy about US troops patrolling the border.

I want to see my country cooperate with other nations, and not be the world's bully. And yes, that includes signing Kyoto and signing onto the ICC. But, sadly, I don't see that happening as long as this administration is in power. At least I'll get a shot a regime change at home next year.

Thanks for your time, and thanks to the admins for letting such a lively debate continue for so long.

http://www.laweekly.com/ink/03/17/on-powers.php

"...the Bush administration's cronies are going to profit from the invasion: The contract for fighting Iraqi oil-well fires was just given to (you guessed it) a subsidiary of Halliburton, the corporation once run by Dick Cheney."

"While people the world over despise our president for his bullying foreign policy, his domestic policy is even scarier. Whether he's rolling back constitutional rights, skewing taxes to help the very rich, gutting environmental protections, letting energy companies shape energy policy, seeking unprecedented exemptions on testing for the Star Wars missile defense, knocking down barriers between church and state, stacking the courts with anti-choice judges, or trying to destroy the Medicaid entitlement with bribes to the states, Bush heads the most repressive and reactionary administration of any of our lifetimes. Whatever ultimately happens in Iraq, the peace movement must broaden its agenda to become a social justice movement that will resist his dire vision for this country."

Yes, you have grossly misunderstood me. Imagine two kids fighting in the schoolyard. Your statement makes it look like the two kids should be put in the bullpin to fight to the death. My opinion is that the rest of the kids in the schoolyard should just walk away and wait for the two fighters to work things out.

Is this a common opinion in my country? I really don't know. It is *my* opinion, and that is the only opinion that I have grounds to speak of.

Well said, Tim York and rocketsauce.

I do believe that war can be used as a last resort if justified. In my opinion, this is not the case in the current situation. I have access to the same facts that are made available to the US public and these facts have not been able to convince me that this war is legitimate. Can you name a major conflict after WWII, in which the USA was involved, that resulted in lasting peace (maybe even democracy) in that country/region? If so, who ensured after-war stability? I truly would like to hear about that, since many peace activists here claim there isn't a single one. What makes you think it will be different this time?

The following is meant as an addition to rocketsauce's post. A development inside the USA that scares me is the forming of a second line of jurisdiction. It is enough to be suspected a "threat to inner security" to lose a great deal of privileges. The same priviliges that are (rightfully so!) granted to alleged severe criminals. For example you can be put into jail for an indefinite amount of time without ever getting a fair process. The officials have no obligation to declare who has been imprisoned. The government can let people vanish at will. That fuckin' scares me. "Justice for all" - Pledge of Allegiance.

So what, you paste excerps from a left-wing site. Here's some similar sites that you can get material from:

http://www.cpusa.org/
http://www.wsws.org/

Speak your own mind.

What do you mean by had Bush cooperated with the UN? By cooperating, you mean sit there discussing Iraq years and years doing nothing but to protect other SC member's interests in the regime? All Hussein had to do was say here's the information on all our weapons programs, here's where we destroyed it all go take your inspectors to confirm the site, and you may take the scientists to a neutral country for private interviews without Iraqi officials being in the room. You didn't mention that maybe Hussein should have to cooperate with the UN as well, I'm not surprised.

OK, /me is skipping 50 or so posts of people telling eachother that they don't know what they're talking about (how terrible an argument - what use is there to start a forum discussion with people whom you consider to be ignorant??). Back ontopic:



True, but think about it: say some bad-ass criminal in your country would miss his imprisonement due to some procedural errors made during his arrest by the police (it happens...). Would you go after him to take a gun to his head and do justice? Hopefully no. Because that would render the whole system of laws and regulations useless.
Something else: taxes for the best-paid citizens are way higher here in Holland than for the ordinary man. I can think of many reasons why that is not fair, but do I decide to evade taxes? No, because taxes were imposed in a democratic procedure. Even though I disagree, I shall abide.
The same argument applies here. Even though I fully agree with you that there have been some terrible tragedies in the past due to the failing international community, I still think setting the UN aside may be the death blow to this democratic endeavour (we'll see when we look back at all this in 50 years ).


I deeply apologize. Ofcourse I didn't mean "the Americans", and surely I didn't mean you. Sorry. Guess I was going too fast there. I will rephrase: "the Americans" == "the militaristic (Powell) and unintellectual (Bush) administration that sees these complicated matters purely black-and white". I wasn't thinking of the American people, and I didn't mean to insult them.


Hmmmm.... difficult to answer, because your examples are well-chosen... but, in the end, I think yes. See the above reasons why I think so.


Come on, this is not about "friendly nations", or being buddies. This is about world politics. What matters is what one thinks is wise, not what friendly leaders do.

Besides, my whole statement about slapping is taken out of context. I wasn't saying the American government were being unpolite towards the French; I was saying the French had taken the risk of getting their diplomatic impotence be put on display, whereas the Dutch leaders have weakly chosen to support something the parliament doesn't really agree on, just to save themselves from this slap in the face. So it wasn't meant as an attacking argument towards US government. I was merely putting forward my view on the weak positions taken by the Dutch - someone above here argued they were making money out of it, and I claim they're just afraid of losing their faces.

edit: fixed typo

That's good argument, but the problem is it isn't quite relatable since everyone will admit the numbers of serious UN resolutions which Hussein is ignoring therefore breaking this so called international law. So a better argument would be if the police know where there's a dangerous criminal but their superiors won't let them arrest him because of some sort of hidden agenda. Do you let the badguy do as he wishes or disobey and take him out?



That's a completely different issue. The argument isn't about whether one should obey a law, but should one enforce the law itself, in this case all the resolutions that are being ignored. You can argue that by enforcing the law on Hussein is breaking the law, but you'd have to completely disregard what 1441 states. Does one need the UN approval to enforce resolution that already approves of enforcement, in this case extreme consequences (or something of the sort)? Extreme consequences means talking endlessly while a couple a members with questionable agendas do whatever possible to stall enforcement of UN resolutions?



Ok I understand now.

I think you're getting Powell mixed up with Don Rummsfeld or Cheney. Powell's known here as a dove and Rummsfeld and Cheney are hawks. I don't know Bush's intelect and I have a feeling most don't.




Fair enough and I repect that.

I don't want to repeat what many have said here. In short, I'm along the skeptical people too, even though I regret Saddam hadn't been taken out during the Gulf war.

Just wanted to say something, about the "world threat" that Irak is supposed to be.

After reading *lame* reports from the CIA, such as this one from 2002:

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2.../9/175131.shtml

... it's no wonder the American administration is completely biased about how the world works !

If you believe what they say, every ballistic missile on earth is a threat to U.S homeland - nothing more, nothing less. I'd say that every new U.S president and administration, is a new threat for the world's peace !

Sincerely, I'm looking forward to the day when there'll be no oil left

Despite whether you like Bush or not, or feel that the US is being too aggressive, or think more months of useless negotiation are warranted...keep in mind the monster that we are dealing with here...

"There was a machine designed for shredding plastic. Men were dropped into it and we were again made to watch. Sometimes they went in head first and died quickly. Sometimes they went in feet first and died screaming. It was horrible. I saw 30 people die like this. Their remains would be placed in plastic bags and we were told they would be used as fish food . . . on one occasion, I saw Qusay [President Saddam Hussein's youngest son] personally supervise these murders."

(the above excerpt'd from another post/link)

That's his human rights attrocities, not to mention that we KNOW that he's connected to 9/11 in some way.

Saddam (& family & friends) are terrorist's...plain and simple. He needs to be dealt with in the most serious and direct of fashions, like we're doing now. He deserves the plastic shreader (but that kind of death is far too quick)....hmmm...maybe exposure to some flesh eating virus.

Anyhow...to the coalition forces of the US & UK...best of luck...come home safe.

xen-uno