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Topic: 10 years later: What is the "reference" portable mp3 player  (Read 18287 times) previous topic - next topic
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10 years later: What is the "reference" portable mp3 player

2004:

10 years later: What is the "reference" portable mp3 player

Reply #1 –
Listen to the music, not the media it's on.
União e reconstrução

10 years later: What is the "reference" portable mp3 player

Reply #3 –
I think that includemeout was recommending you go with something that can run rockbox firmware (there are many out there).

10 years later: What is the "reference" portable mp3 player

Reply #4 –
Quote from: pdq on
I think that includemeout was recommending you go with something that can run rockbox firmware (there are many out there).


And I appreciate the software suggestion, but I'm looking for hardware opinions on an audio hardware forum.

Rockbox supported hardware:

    Apple: iPod 1g through 5.5g, iPod Mini, iPod Nano 1g
    Archos: Jukebox 5000, 6000, Studio, Recorder, FM Recorder, Recorder V2 and Ondio
    Cowon: iAudio X5, X5V, X5L, M5, M5L, M3 and M3L
    iriver: iHP100 series, H100 series, H300 series and H10 series
    MPIO: HD300
    Olympus: M:Robe 100
    Packard Bell: Vibe 500
    SanDisk: Sansa c200, e200 and e200R series, Fuze, Clip, Clip+ and Clip Zip
    Toshiba: Gigabeat X and F series


I guess that not all the devices that are able to run rockbox firmware sound the same, do them?

10 years later: What is the "reference" portable mp3 player

Reply #5 –
The opinion that you will find here at HA is that, unless you can objectively prove an audible difference, any modern player is a "reference" device, since they all have flat frequency outputs and low thd, whether a $30 clip, a $600 iPhone, or a $2500 A&K.

10 years later: What is the "reference" portable mp3 player

Reply #6 –
Quote from: deafmutelame on
I guess that not all the devices that are able to run rockbox firmware sound the same, do them?


There will be some differences between older devices, but on modern hardware most players are 16 bit limited.

10 years later: What is the "reference" portable mp3 player

Reply #7 –
Quote from: deafmutelame on
Quote from: includemeout on
Research. 


I'm researching by posting in a specialized audio hardware forum on the internetz.

Makes sense?  So what's your choice?



pdq was spot on: my recommending you what IMO (and many others'), is a very competent firmware alternative is simply down to the fact that these days*, trying to spot night-to-day differences in terms of SQ among reasonably-priced DAP's is a wild goose chase of sorts. Hence my recommendation for searching previous posts and maybe narrow down to whichever player appeals to your personal taste in terms of features, design and the like, (the Rockbox compatibility list you referred to would also be a good starting point) and seriously consider "Rockboxing it" afterwards and see for yourself what many users have been on about.

And, as I'm certain you're aware of, unlike what happens on most "specialized audio hardware forum", claims regarding SQ here at HA - whether a piece of advice or just an anecdote - would have to be scientifically proven (for starters, ABX testing) in order to not to be dismissed as plain fallacy.


*In fact, I seriously doubt differences were so significant a decade ago.
Listen to the music, not the media it's on.
União e reconstrução

10 years later: What is the "reference" portable mp3 player

Reply #8 –
iPods and Sansas (and probably others) have been more than good enough for over half a decade. That's why no one can answer your sound quality question.

The most audible problem on most non-rockboxable devices is the lack of gapless support, though Apple devices seem to do well enough when used in the way they were designed for.

Capacity, speed, ways of browsing your music library etc are all important.

There are still some utterly pitiful devices out there, but these are sold as toys at the bottom of the market. By the time you're spending £25+ on a Sansa clip <something>, you're fine.

Build quality and longevity have proven an issue for some.

Dedicated mp3 players are something of a niche, now that "everyone" has a smartphone.

Cheers,
David.

10 years later: What is the "reference" portable mp3 player

Reply #9 –
I guess the best thing you can do sound quality-wise is to get a portable headphone amplifier + a good (i.e. better than Apple earbuds) set of earbuds/IEMs/headphones.

10 years later: What is the "reference" portable mp3 player

Reply #10 –
Quote from: Hex144 on
I guess the best thing you can do sound quality-wise is to get a portable headphone amplifier + a good (i.e. better than Apple earbuds) set of earbuds/IEMs/headphones.
What is wrong with the output of the recommended Sansas and iPods? The Sansa Clips even have a fantastic output impedance of 1 Ohm, and also the iPods should be around 4-5 Ohm.
It's only audiophile if it's inconvenient.

10 years later: What is the "reference" portable mp3 player

Reply #11 –
You're right, didn't know about that. Also, seems like the iPods from 2010-2011 onwards are less than 2 Ohm.

10 years later: What is the "reference" portable mp3 player

Reply #12 –
Well, just the latest generation, actually.

10 years later: What is the "reference" portable mp3 player

Reply #13 –
Many current generation players actually have better output than some popular dedicated amplifiers a few years ago.  Companies have begun to take headphone output a lot more seriously, at least for portable devices.

10 years later: What is the "reference" portable mp3 player

Reply #14 –
Errm... Isn't the reasoning here backwards? These devices just run the DAC step. Anything "reference", especially in regards to a digital audio format like MP3, must be defined in terms of digital signals.

These devices, they just spew decoded PCM data. There is no reference to be had in the analog domain there, only fidelity to be lost.

10 years later: What is the "reference" portable mp3 player

Reply #15 –
Quote from: deafmutelame on
2004:



See if you can find RMAA test results on these earlier players.

My first portable audio player was a Nomad Jukebox 3. 

2002-2003?

From a technical performance standpoint it wasn't that much worse than the best we have today in terms of actual audible performance. It major deficiencies were that it was expensive, delicate, heavy had short battery life, and large.
 

10 years later: What is the "reference" portable mp3 player

Reply #16 –
This looks like expandable, audiophile buzzword-compliant fun (albeit $350):

Fiio X5

Claimed output impedance from the headphone jack is <0.26 ohms.

10 years later: What is the "reference" portable mp3 player

Reply #17 –
Quote from: 4season on
Fiio X5

Interesting, they quote a lot of numbers but even they can't get it right apparently. Crosstalk: > 100 dB @10K? @1KHz? That's a lot of crosstalk, right? I think they mean < -100dbFS or something like that. All those numbers must look very impressive to the average audiophool, right?
Music: sounds arranged such that they construct feelings.

10 years later: What is the "reference" portable mp3 player

Reply #18 –
Quote from: ktf on
Quote from: 4season on
Fiio X5

Interesting, they quote a lot of numbers but even they can't get it right apparently. Crosstalk: > 100 dB @10K? @1KHz? That's a lot of crosstalk, right? I think they mean < -100dbFS or something like that. All those numbers must look very impressive to the average audiophool, right?


The sign is missing, but that is obviously a typo from whoever wrote the website.  The X5 isn't all that impressive given its price, but I will give Fiio credit for actually providing real specifications about the analog performance of the device.  Virtually no one else will tell you the output impedance of their amplifier for example. 

10 years later: What is the "reference" portable mp3 player

Reply #19 –
Quote from: ktf on
Quote from: 4season on
Fiio X5

Interesting, they quote a lot of numbers but even they can't get it right apparently. Crosstalk: > 100 dB @10K? @1KHz? That's a lot of crosstalk, right? I think they mean < -100dbFS or something like that. All those numbers must look very impressive to the average audiophool, right?


Audiophools need numbers to be impressed? A true audiophool only needs science and measurements when they happen to support what they already "know".

10 years later: What is the "reference" portable mp3 player

Reply #20 –
Quote from: 4season on
Quote from: ktf on
Quote from: 4season on
Fiio X5

Interesting, they quote a lot of numbers but even they can't get it right apparently. Crosstalk: > 100 dB @10K? @1KHz? That's a lot of crosstalk, right? I think they mean < -100dbFS or something like that. All those numbers must look very impressive to the average audiophool, right?


Audiophools need numbers to be impressed? A true audiophool only needs science and measurements when they happen to support what they already "know".


I personally didn't get it. Care to elaborate on that, please?
Listen to the music, not the media it's on.
União e reconstrução

10 years later: What is the "reference" portable mp3 player

Reply #21 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
See if you can find RMAA test results on these earlier players.

My first portable audio player was a Nomad Jukebox 3. 

2002-2003?

From a technical performance standpoint it wasn't that much worse than the best we have today in terms of actual audible performance. It major deficiencies were that it was expensive, delicate, heavy had short battery life, and large.


Being also by 2003 an
owner of the same player, and besides being then mesmerized by its double batteries and sheer number of connections, I don't recall it being a huge leap from the previous one (a Rio Volt) in terms of sound quality.

And the fact this same Jukebox3 is still up and running these days, only makes any SQ comparison to my current Sansa Fuze impossible to discern bar a few refinements (crossfeed, gapless playback etc) the latter can offer only due to it being Rockbox'd.
Listen to the music, not the media it's on.
União e reconstrução

10 years later: What is the "reference" portable mp3 player

Reply #22 –
Quote from: includemeout on
Quote from: 4season on
Audiophools need numbers to be impressed? A true audiophool only needs science and measurements when they happen to support what they already "know".

I personally didn't get it. Care to elaborate on that, please?

It's like this: An audiophool will worry about matters like jitter, frequency response and distortion, then refuse to implement solutions which can make a real improvement in those areas, because they don't seem "pure". Hence, they avoid Asynchronous Sample Rate Converters, tone controls and negative feedback like the plague.

If I know a bit about audiophoolery, it's because I was one for many years, and I had the wires, the footers, fluids and special solders to prove it 

10 years later: What is the "reference" portable mp3 player

Reply #23 –
Again, from Fiio's website: "AAC  Support，AAC is lossy music compression format of Apple. iPhone, iPad，iPod are all ACC format.".

How is this professional?

10 years later: What is the "reference" portable mp3 player

Reply #24 –
The latest iPod Touch is probably what comes closest to "reference" DAP both in terms of sheer (technical) sound quality and popularity. It's a shame that it's locked into Apple's walled garden though.