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Topic: Recommend me a quality MP3 player (Read 28801 times) previous topic - next topic
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Recommend me a quality MP3 player

Reply #50 –
I think he's a bit upset for not getting credit for at least attempting level matching, or for being shot down because it wasn't good enough.

Speaking of level matching, how do people feel differences in how loud a player can drive high impedance headphones before there is audible distortion?  I mean we can't just dismiss it by telling people they need an external amplifier, can we?  Or am I just making something out of nothing?

Recommend me a quality MP3 player

Reply #51 –
Quote from: greynol on
Speaking of level matching, how do people feel differences in how loud a player can drive high impedance headphones before there is audible distortion?  I mean we can't just dismiss it by telling people they need an external amplifier, can we?  Or am I just making something out of nothing?


You somehow got the concept of loudness and impedance wrong.

High impedance makes it actually easier for the output stage to stay precise. For example, if you put 600 ohm headphones (rare) on your DAP, you can turn up the volume to 100% and still only get as loud as a quiet conversation.

High impedance headphones don't limit your ability to go up in volume by distorting at some point. They limit how high you can go up in volume at all. Here a headphone amp would only make sense to make it louder, not to get less distortion (there won't be any).

Low impedance is the problem with some models. They don't "tame" the output stage enough so there can happen a bass roll-off. But such is clearly visible on any RMAA plot and so clearly out of the scope of opinion and discussion and best presented by hard fact. Here it can help to put a good amp between source and headphone (the amp presents itself to the DAP as very high impedance load).

Recommend me a quality MP3 player

Reply #52 –
Quote from: rpp3po on
Quote from: ddrawley on
The only way I can see of settling this is to borrow my friends ITouch for a weekend and run the RMAA and ABX tests with it against my Cowon D2, and the Sanza Fuze I have been meaning to get for a throw around player.


That would be very interesting! All tested against the same RMAA circuitry. The ABX is going to be quite hard, though. You have to level match the volume controls once with a very small and sensitive microphone put inside the earbuds. The environment needs to be quiet and you shouldn't move or touch it while reading the level meter.



No, you don't need mics to level match, and in fact you shouldn't go down that route.

Just measure the voltage of the outputs with the actual earbud load attached.

Recommend me a quality MP3 player

Reply #53 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
No, you don't need mics to level match, and in fact you shouldn't go down that route.

Just measure the voltage of the outputs with the actual earbud load attached.


I thought about that again. You're correct. When not comparing headphones or speakers a microphone is really unnecessary effort. Instead of using a voltmeter you can also try the method described in post #43.

Recommend me a quality MP3 player

Reply #54 –
Quote from: rpp3po on
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
No, you don't need mics to level match, and in fact you shouldn't go down that route.

Just measure the voltage of the outputs with the actual earbud load attached.


I thought about that again. You're correct. When not comparing headphones or speakers a microphone is really unnecessary effort.


It also adds another source of outside influences. Stable acoustic measurements are not always easy.

Quote
Instead of using a voltmeter you can also try the method described in post #43.


I take it you mean the second method from post #43, which amounts to using the audio interface's input as an uncalibrated voltmeter. Absolute calibration of the measuring device is of course unecessary, since it is level matching that is of the essence. Therefore either method will work.

Some people shy away from voltmeters due to their expense. I've found an inexpensive readily available voltmeter that could be very effective for level matching, the Ideal 61-312, which my local Lowes Home Improvement Store sold me for the princly sum of $32.95. Here's how the Ideal 61-312 compares to a Fluke 85 that cost about $200 some years back. I measured the output of an M-Audio AP 2496 that was playing sine waves generated in Cool Edit Pro:



Freq Fluke 85 61-312
Hz      V    dB    V      dB
5      0.991 -0.08 0.954 -0.41
10    0.996 -0.03 1.003 0.03
20    1.018  0.15 1.015 0.13
100    1.021  0.18 1.021 0.18
400    1.022  0.19 1.021 0.18
1 KHz  1.024  0.21 1.015 0.13
5 KHz  1.021  0.18 0.855 -1.36
10 KHz 1.024  0.21 0.619 -4.17
20 KHz 1.011  0.10 0.344 -9.27
90 KHz 0.759 -2.40 0.003 -50.46



The Ideal 61-312 is a 3 1/2 digit, auto-scaling device, and can be readily used to provide +/- 0.1 dB level matching in a wide variety of practical applications. While it is nearly 10 dB down at 20 KHz, it performs quite well up to 1 KHz for basic level setting. Even with the 10 dB loss at 20 KHz, it is still good for level matching at that frequency. The basic goal of 0.1 dB level matching is matching of levels within 1 percent. As long as both signals display as greater than 100 counts, and match within 1 count, the match is adequate.

One can also infer from the measurements above that aside from not being calibrated in the conventional sense, the input of an AP 24192 makes a fine measuring device, or source of audio signals! ;-)

The AP 2496 is only a little bit less precise than the AP 24192, but with about 10 dB more noise and distortion.

Recommend me a quality MP3 player

Reply #55 –
Quote from: rpp3po on
High impedance makes it actually easier for the output stage to stay precise. For example, if you put 600 ohm headphones (rare) on your DAP, you can turn up the volume to 100% and still only get as loud as a quiet conversation.

I understand that, but I am wondering if taking the volume to 100% results in clipping because the output stage runs out of headroom.

Recommend me a quality MP3 player

Reply #56 –
Quote from: greynol on
Quote from: rpp3po on
High impedance makes it actually easier for the output stage to stay precise. For example, if you put 600 ohm headphones (rare) on your DAP, you can turn up the volume to 100% and still only get as loud as a quiet conversation.

I understand that, but I am wondering if taking the volume to 100% results in clipping because the output stage runs out of headroom.


Hmm, I don't know a general answer for this problem. Probably not going above 95% should keep most players in a completely save range. Don't ask me why these 5% more loudness were worth the clipping to the engineers, though.

That's one more reason why a proper RMAA test loaded with your actual headphones should precede any ABX. There any clipping is clearly visible.

Recommend me a quality MP3 player

Reply #57 –
Quote from: kornchild2002 on
What I am trying to get at is that, during parts of silence/low volume, I was easily able to pick out which input was the iPod touch.  Both the 1G and 2G iPod touch have a constant hiss that can be heard.  This is due to the touch screen interfering with the iPod's internal hardware.  The hiss is inaudible at any reasonable level when sound is coming out through the headphone port but it can be heard during really quiet/silent parts.  Just giving you a heads up as I used a couple of samples (mainly from Tool) that were a dead give away for the iPod touch (not that it wasn't capable of processing the audio but that hiss came through).



Strange, I don't hear it on my touch (2G).  I'm wondering if something has changed. 

After reading your post, i went looking for the hiss.  I was on my lunch today, so time was short.  My first instinct was to try Pink Floyd, so i fired up DSOM.  This is with the volume on max, no equalizer, 16 Ohm Etymotic Er6i's.  They're not high end, but half decent at least.  These are canalphones with really good isolation, so i should hear a hiss if it's there.  The first few seconds of the album are dead silent.  I can hear a hiss come up around seconds 5-6 or so, just ahead of the heartbeat becoming audible.

I checked out some Tool, and the only silence i could think of was at the beginning of Eulogy on Aenima.  There's definitely a hiss there, but i expect that's part of the recording, or encoding due to my experience with DSOM.  Because i was on my lunch, i didn't have much time to look further in my Tool albums.  Do you remember where you found the hiss in the silence? 

I'm not trying to prove you wrong, something could have changed, or your ears could be more sensitive to the hiss frequencies.  In a discussion about iPod sound quality, i think it bears further investigation. 





 

Recommend me a quality MP3 player

Reply #58 –
No, nothing has changed in the 2G iPod.  The hiss is audible on both the 1G and 2G iPod touch models, it can even be heard with the stock white Apple earbuds.  So the hiss is there whether you hear it or not (please don't take that negatively).  I know that the hiss is pretty much silenced when using some headphones and you cannot hear the hiss when ambient noise is interfering.  You can feel free to conduct some more research.  iLounge was filled with forums regarding the hiss when the 1G iPod touch was released.  Looking at the RMAA tests, the hiss does not interfere with the output quality of the iPod touch.

I didn't mind the hiss at all whenever I had my 2G 32GB iPod touch and the hiss was not audible with my Sennheiser or Bose cans.  The hiss was still there but I couldn't hear it.

Recommend me a quality MP3 player

Reply #59 –
If the hiss is there, shouldn't it show up in the noise level of the Anandtech RMAA results?  It shows < -115 db of noise across the full spectrum.

Not trying to be adversarial here, but ipod lounge isn't exactly a bastion of objective evidence.  I've butted heads with subjectivism there, and i know you have too.  Isn't it at least possible there's some placebo going on here?

Can you tell me which tracks you're hearing it on? I'm a Tool fan myself, and wouldn't mind looking into it further.

Recommend me a quality MP3 player

Reply #60 –
Quote from: gerwen on
If the hiss is there, shouldn't it show up in the noise level of the Anandtech RMAA results?  It shows < -115 db of noise across the full spectrum.

Not trying to be adversarial here, but ipod lounge isn't exactly a bastion of objective evidence.  I've butted heads with subjectivism there, and i know you have too.  Isn't it at least possible there's some placebo going on here?

Can you tell me which tracks you're hearing it on? I'm a Tool fan myself, and wouldn't mind looking into it further.


That's absolutely correct. If a RMAA test is done at a maximum volume level you would never listen at, its results maybe incomplete. The distance from the loudest tone to the noise floor may well be 115 db then, but only because it was so loud. The device may have an absolute noise level independent of the set volume, which is much more audible when listening at lower volumes than those tested at. So a good RMAA test should also include the absolute noise level of the device, which seems to be quite high in the case of the iPod touch with its complex electronic components.

Recommend me a quality MP3 player

Reply #61 –
I have heard the hiss during "Eulogy" by Tool.  You can also hear the hiss just by pausing the track and turning the volume up.  As pointed out, the hiss may not have shown up on RMAA tests.  I know that iLounge is filled with subjective posts/reviews but that doesn't mean that every post there is bad.

Edit: just know that your headphones may prevent you from hearing this hiss.  I have two large "can" headphones in which I cannot hear the hiss.  I can hear the hiss using the supplied earbuds though.

Recommend me a quality MP3 player

Reply #62 –
Quote from: kornchild2002 on
I have heard the hiss during "Eulogy" by Tool.  You can also hear the hiss just by pausing the track and turning the volume up.

Edit: just know that your headphones may prevent you from hearing this hiss.  I have two large "can" headphones in which I cannot hear the hiss.  I can hear the hiss using the supplied earbuds though.

Two things:
1) given that you can hear the hiss with the track paused, then is there reason to believe that the particular track has nothing to do with the phenomena?
2) given that you can hear the hiss through some headphones and not through others, do we go back to concluding the phenomena is some interaction between headphone noise-floor and the DAP's driving power? Or?
God kills a kitten every time you encode with CBR 320

Recommend me a quality MP3 player

Reply #63 –
It just got a little more complicated.

On lunch again i did some more very critical listening with my Etymotic ER6i's.  They have extremely good noise isolation.

I can hear the hiss.  Barely.  It's just on the threshold of of my hearing, and it does respond to the volume control.  Lower volume lowers the hiss.

There's more.  When you hit pause, there is an audible pop or click, and the hiss remains.... for about 10 seconds, and then it pops again and the hiss is gone.  During this ten seconds, adjusting the volume, either with the slider or with the 2G buttons causes the same pop again for each move of the volume.  After the ten seconds, the volume change noise is gone with the hiss.  The pop itself is not loud, but noticeable while listening to a near silent track, or while it's on pause.  The hiss or popping doesn't respond to using the touchscreen. (I've read the hiss attributed to the touchscreen).  Electronic noise of some sort obviously.

I'm also inclined to believe that some property of the headphone affects the hiss (impedance maybe?)  My ety's should be very revealing of a hiss, as they are reportedly very flat in response, with great isolation.  They're 16 ohms, i'm wondering if higher impedance may make a difference.  I'm positive i'd never hear this hiss with over the ear model headphones. 

I'm satisified, the hiss is totally not objectionable with my headphones, barely perceptible in fact, and would never in a million years have heard it if i hadn't gone hunting for it.  I'm going to try the stock earbuds when i get home to see if they make a difference.

I suspect that the hiss is processor noise, because it stops after about 10 seconds on pause.  I would think this is due to the iPod sort of throttling down in response to being paused to save battery.

Side note. On Tool's Eulogy, there is a hiss in the recording that completely masks the iPod's hiss.  It is a fair bit louder, and hitting pause makes it disappear.  Of course it could be my recording: Eac ripped to flac, transcoded to nero aac q.42. 

Apologies for the long winded post.

Recommend me a quality MP3 player

Reply #64 –
No problem about the long post, I just wanted you to understand that there was a hiss.  I personally feel that the hiss is of no concern though since it is hard to hear and some headphones mask the hiss.  So my posts weren't to complain about the hiss, they were made to state that an audible hiss in there.  Yes, I am aware that there is a slight hiss on Tool's "Eulogy" as well.  I could still hear the iPod's hiss with that track though.

As for the source of the hiss, no one has come out with a concrete answer.  Some believe it has to do with the battery interfering with the sound processor (similar to the issue with some notebooks), some people think it has to do with the wi-fi antenna, others believe that it is due to the iPod's screen in that it operates by sending an electrical signal throughout it interface (the electrical signal is turned off whenever the iPod goes into a mode where the backlight is reduced).  I don't know if we are going to find something definitive on this.  I also don't know if the issue occurs with the iPhone either.

Recommend me a quality MP3 player

Reply #65 –
Quote from: kornchild2002 on
Yes, I am aware that there is a slight hiss on Tool's "Eulogy" as well.  I could still hear the iPod's hiss with that track though.

This leads me to believe there is variability to the hiss, depending on unknown factors.  Headphones being primary I'd guess.  The hiss on Eulogy is very apparent with my ipod/headphone combo.  Much, much greater than the iPod's inherent hiss.  I expect this is not the case in your (and other peoples') experiences. 

If anyone else shares their experience, Eulogy could be valuable for comparison to the native hiss, pause/unpause.

Recommend me a quality MP3 player

Reply #66 –
Quote from: gerwen on
There's more.  When you hit pause, there is an audible pop or click, and the hiss remains.... for about 10 seconds, and then it pops again and the hiss is gone.


Sounds to me like there is a muting circuit. If the player is stopped for more than 10 seconds, then the muting is activated.

Quote
During this ten seconds, adjusting the volume, either with the slider or with the 2G buttons causes the same pop again for each move of the volume.


The pop could be a number of things, nono of which reflect well on the design of the player.

Quote
After the ten seconds, the volume change noise is gone with the hiss.  The pop itself is not loud, but noticeable while listening to a near silent track, or while it's on pause.  The hiss or popping doesn't respond to using the touchscreen. (I've read the hiss attributed to the touchscreen).  Electronic noise of some sort obviously.


I take it that the muting circuit that comes on after 10 seconds is after the volume control.

Quote
I'm also inclined to believe that some property of the headphone affects the hiss (impedance maybe?)


Two properties relate: efficiency or acoustical gain, and frequency response.

The efficiency of headphones varies over a pretty wide range - 10 to 20 dB.  The actual efficiency of headphones is hard to compare because of how it is usually specified.  All other things being equal (and they never are!)  the more efficient headphones should enable a listener to be more sensitive to residual noises of the kind you have been describing.  Headphones also vary in terms of frequency response, which amounts to being relative efficiency at high frequencies. Headphones with more response at high frequencies should enable a listener to more sensitive to the kinds of noises that you have been describing.

Just to make things more complicated, the frequency response of headphones and more particularly earphones (IEMs) is somewhat dependent on the unique shape of the listeners ears, both outer and innner.

Quote
My ety's should be very revealing of a hiss, as they are reportedly very flat in response, with great isolation.  They're 16 ohms, i'm wondering if higher impedance may make a difference.


Headphone efficiency is usually given in dB for a 1 milliwatt signal. Thing is, the higher the impedance of the headphones, the higher the voltage required for a given number of milliwatts. Portable stereoes tend to act like low voltage sources, so high impedance headphones put them at a disadvantage.

Quote
I'm positive i'd never hear this hiss with over the ear model headphones.


There are regular headphones with really good isolation and high sensitivity. Also, the isolation is less important if you are listening in a quiet place.

There is no necessary relationship between the size or impedance or price of headphones and their efficiency with a portble stereo as the source.

Then there is the sensitivity and frequency response of your ears, which also varies among individuals, and even at different times and circumstances for a given individual.

Quote
I'm satisified, the hiss is totally not objectionable with my headphones, barely perceptible in fact, and would never in a million years have heard it if i hadn't gone hunting for it.  I'm going to try the stock earbuds when i get home to see if they make a difference.

I suspect that the hiss is processor noise, because it stops after about 10 seconds on pause.


The noise is probably due to the DAC and the amplification that follows it. When the player is stopped, the DAC is usually receiving zero signal, which should result in no sound whatsever. However,  both the DAC and the amplification following it can add noise of their own.

Quote
I would think this is due to the iPod sort of throttling down in response to being paused to save battery.


Could be.

Quote
Side note. On Tool's Eulogy, there is a hiss in the recording that completely masks the iPod's hiss.  It is a fair bit louder, and hitting pause makes it disappear.  Of course it could be my recording: Eac ripped to flac, transcoded to nero aac q.42.


When in doubt, test using a file that is not lossy compressed.

Also note that there can be sample differences among nominally identical players that could be relevant to this discussion.

Everybody should do a Rightmark test on their own player to see if it is operating up to snuff, if they hear something they don't like.

Recommend me a quality MP3 player

Reply #67 –
I want these tests I do to be accurate. This M-Audio forum post seems to confirm what I thought about driving headphones with my AP 24/96. I guess I could drag my PC up near my Denon AVR-3000.

Quote
JA  JA is offline
M-Audio Tech Support
        
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Irwindale, CA
Posts: 4,066
Default
None of the Delta Series cards have headphone outputs. While you could get an adapter to connect them, the setup is not ideal. The other problem is, both cards only have 1 stereo analog output, the 3/4 output is digital (S/PDIF). This means that you would have to use a mono master output and a mono cue output from Torq LE. Another drawback is you can't use the Delta cards with your laptop, which could pose a problem if you want to DJ away from home.

I would suggest looking at a USB or FireWire interface instead. These devices can be used on either computer, are available with multiple analog outputs, and also include dedicated headphone jacks. Are you planning on recording into the computer as well?

Conectiv is a USB interface with 4 RCA inputs/outputs (2 stereo pairs), a 1/4" headphone jack, as well as a 1/4" mic input. This package includes the full version of Torq, which gives you more effects, the ability to run VST effects, a sampler, and more. Plus, you can still use your X-Session Pro as a control surface.

Other USB interfaces to consider would be the Fast Track Pro or the Fast Track Ultra. These devices have XLR mic inputs with phantom power, which are great if you plan on recording into the computer as well. The ProFire 610 is a great option if you're looking at a FireWire interface.


I would rather buy the PC sound card I was considering for gaming, it can drive headphones:

Asus DX 7.1 PCIe card

Output Signal-to-Noise Ratio (A-Weighted):
116 dB for Front-out
112dB for other channels

Input Signal-to-Noise Ratio (A-Weighted):
112dB

Output Total Harmonic Distortion + Noise at 1kHz (-3dB) :
0.00056% (-105dB) for Front-out

Input Total Harmonic Distortion + Noise at 1kHz (-3dB) :
0.0004% (-108dB) for Line-in

Frequency Response (-3dB, 24-bit/96kHz format):
<10Hz to 48KHz

Output/Input Full-Scale Voltage
2 Vrms (5.65 Vp-p)


Thoughts?

Recommend me a quality MP3 player

Reply #68 –
RockBox firmware on a non-video (4th gen.) iPod Classic deserves a mention.
The 60/80GB Video iPod does as well, as it does, indeed, support RockBox.

iTunes never appealed to me, and native FLAC and SHN support makes Rockbox shine, especially when a refurb. 40GB iPod can be had for around US$100.

Recommend me a quality MP3 player

Reply #69 –
Quote from: ddrawley on
This M-Audio forum post seems to confirm what I thought about driving headphones with my AP 24/96.


You don't "drive" the headphones with your sound card while testing, but you drive them with you DAP and measure in parallel through you 24/96 what's happening. So no need to get another one for this test. It would be of no use. Even if it had an additional headphone output this would not be the place to put them for the RMAA test.

Recommend me a quality MP3 player

Reply #70 –
Good point. Darn, there goes my excuse to get the Asus sound card.

Recommend me a quality MP3 player

Reply #71 –
Quote from: mstieber on
I'm surprised the RockBox firmware on an iPod classic has not been mentioned.

iTunes never appealed to me, and native FLAC and SHN support makes Rockbox shine, especially when a refurb. 40GB iPod can be had for around US$100.


This was not mentioned because RockBox is not compatible with the iPod classic line.  Remember that the iPod classic line comes in 80GB, 120GB, and 160GB capacities.  It also has anodized aluminum fronts.  All other full sized iPods are addressed by their generation.  40GB iPods came in a few flavors: 3G 40GB and 4G 40GB.  Sorry to be picky but I see people call the older iPods "iPod classics" all the time and it drives me nuts.  I also see iPod classics being called 6G iPods and I find that equally annoying.

Additionally, to my knowledge, RockBox does nothing to alter the sound quality output of an iPod unless you enable an EQ.  So mentioning RockBox would really have no merit here since we are talking about the sound quality of these units regardless of what firmware then run (RockBox should use the iPod's audio hardware in the same way as Apple's default firmware).  My overall opinion of RockBox has been drastically changed (thanks to a few info updates) and I think it is a fine firmware.  Still, that shouldn't affect sound output quality on iPods unless an EQ is enabled.

Recommend me a quality MP3 player

Reply #72 –
Quote from: kornchild2002 on
I have heard the hiss during "Eulogy" by Tool.  You can also hear the hiss just by pausing the track and turning the volume up.


It seems this thread is really missing some very precious digital good: pure silence. People have to mess around with short snips of silence within music tracks to get a hold of this mysterious hiss.

I'm in a generous mood today. So here, exclusively for the hydrogenaudio.org community:

30 seconds of free, pure silence, 16 bit, 44,1 khz: Apple Lossless - MP3.

For the true audio enthusiasts among you (and only for them!) I am selling one whole minute of purest silence in 24 bit, 96khz quality on Ebay. Get it while it's hot!

PS I will also sell to Dan Volker, if he can afford it.

Recommend me a quality MP3 player

Reply #73 –
Quote from: rpp3po on
For the true audio enthusiasts among you (and only for them!) I am selling one whole minute of purest silence in 24 bit, 96khz quality on Ebay. Get it while it's hot!

Funny stuff, great description.  Any bets on whether or not it sells?

Recommend me a quality MP3 player

Reply #74 –
Other than the iPod model I have access to (5G), the iPod classic seems indeed to have some quality flaws I'd consider noticeable on good equipment. See these measurements. That's really ignorant of Apple. It wouldn't have been that hard to get this perfectly straight as most competitors can. The part costs wouldn't have increased more than few cents per unit.