So what? I've always thought that in a free market, the onus was on the consumer to make informed choices, or not. Don't people have a right to sell or purchase the products they want to? Without resorting to any audio issues whatsoever, since there's going to be a segment of the population that will spend money on expensive audio gear, won't there always be companies supplying that demand? Making it sound like people are being forced to buy this stuff, is factual incorrect.

Furthermore, clearly if people are happy with their gear, what's the problem with that? As well, audio isn't the only endeavor that relies on subjective opinions in order to promote products. Isn't it unreasonable to expect only audio companies, and their promoters, to be completely "objective" and without bias?

Not everyone has discovered HA, and there are many more websites (and magazines) where the information is overwhelmingly of the oposite kind.

The average person may not have the time or intellect to determine which of the conflicting views to accept. THAT is the limited resource that I am referring to.

Quote from: 2Bdecided on 2009-05-01 14:26:25

Or to put it more bluntly, if it was medicine rather than audio, the practice would be illegal (in most parts of the developed world!).

Sigh ... this is simply not true, in fact right now, there are many 'medications' that have questionable medicinal value; for example, kids cough syrup. In fact, there is an entire world of alternative, unproven, holistic 'legal' remedies in the health fields of all the countries of the first world.

Quote from: pdq on 2009-05-01 14:42:56

Not everyone has discovered HA, and there are many more websites (and magazines) where the information is overwhelmingly of the oposite kind.

So what? Is it really the companies who are to blame for the current situation?

Economies of scale factor into this free market. So it's folks on a budget like me who want something both high-end and low-cost (relative to $350,000) who end up having to research and pay a lot more than they ought to because of the spread of all this airy misinformation.

The FTC sometimes forces a company to remove advertising claims that they cannot substantiate. But have you ever heard of them protecting consumers of audio equipment from false claims? I haven't.

Quote from: 2tec on 2009-05-01 15:01:18

Quote from: pdq on 2009-05-01 14:42:56

Not everyone has discovered HA, and there are many more websites (and magazines) where the information is overwhelmingly of the oposite kind.

So what? Is it really the companies who are to blame for the current situation?

There are plenty of companies that make excellent audio equipment at reasonable prices. There are also companies that make and sell products that are way overpriced. I don't have a problem with either of these.

The problem that I have is with companies and apparently neutral reviewers who feed off of people's fears and gullibility, getting the victims to pay exhorbitant prices for products that do little or nothing for audio quality.

The FTC sometimes forces a company to remove advertising claims that they cannot substantiate. But have you ever heard of them protecting consumers of audio equipment from false claims? I haven't.

Check this out - its been the law for maybe 40 years:

http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2000/12/amprule.shtm

exempt advertising disseminated through the media from disclosure of total rated harmonic distortion and the associated power bandwidth and impedance ratings when a power output claim is made; and

Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on 2009-05-01 15:40:41

Check this out - its been the law for maybe 40 years:

http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2000/12/amprule.shtm

Quote

exempt advertising disseminated through the media from disclosure of total rated harmonic distortion and the associated power bandwidth and impedance ratings when a power output claim is made; and

Does this really mean that when you advertise an output power rating, you no longer have to specify at what level of total harmonic distortion? I'm shocked. 

I like your comparison of the high end audio scene with holistic medicine. A lot of it like most of the cable stuff, simply does no good and does no harm except distract people from effective solutions.

In some cases, taking holistic medicine is not that far from religious groups who refuse effective medical treatments. When real harm is probable, courts will take over. But, bad sound has not killed that many people. ;-)

However, some of the stuff the high end  push as being better simply sounds bad or at best substandard - it is like a wine conoisseur's magazine pushing cheap even spoiled wine in expensive bottles at sky-high prices. It's legal, but...

I've wondered for decades about how long the high end scene would survive given all their flaws. The expected decline is finally happening to some degree.

Quote from: Axon on 2009-05-01 00:01:09

Insofar as JA's article deliberately avoided the whole issue of observed audibility of lossy encoding artifacts, and that (as I pointed out) a modern codec shows similar numerical issues, I'm not sure how important the Audition/Fraunhofer thing is in the context of the article itself.

As I said, the premise behind the article was not to use the very best examples of the breed but to show typical results.

The analogy [is]...close enough.

I think that us ABXers and skeptics are also arguing fallaciously when we decry all high end audio as placebo, ...

Me neither - all I'm saying is that the "it's all placebo" argument is extremely easy to dismiss.

Quote from: 2Bdecided on 2009-05-01 14:26:25

Or to put it more bluntly, if it was medicine rather than audio, the practice would be illegal (in most parts of the developed world!).

Sigh ... this is simply not true, in fact right now, there are many 'medications' that have questionable medicinal value; for example, kids cough syrup. In fact, there is an entire world of alternative, unproven, holistic 'legal' remedies in the health fields of all the countries of the first world.

Don't worry, personally, I'd bet you'll be able to wonder for the rest of your life. Clearly the high end of audio isn't going to just disappear, no matter what your dreams are. By the way, do you have any proof that sales of expensive audio gear are declining?

Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on 2009-05-01 15:18:06

I like your comparison of the high end audio scene with holistic medicine. A lot of it like most of the cable stuff, simply does no good and does no harm except distract people from effective solutions.

First off, it wasn't my analogy,

Quote

In some cases, taking holistic medicine is not that far from religious groups who refuse effective medical treatments. When real harm is probable, courts will take over. But, bad sound has not killed that many people. ;-)

Again I feel as if you're going to extremes.

In truth, no one has ever been injured by choosing  to purchase some high end audio gear. The concept, like some arguments, is just silly.

Isn't a connoisseur someone who would be able to spot a cheap wine in an expensive bottle?

Indeed, isn't it just a straw-man argument to compare the dishonest practices of the wine industry to all those who produce expensive audio gear?

Quote

I've wondered for decades about how long the high end scene would survive given all their flaws. The expected decline is finally happening to some degree.

Don't worry, personally, I'd bet you'll be able to wonder for the rest of your life. Clearly the high end of audio isn't going to just disappear, no matter what your dreams are.

By the way, do you have any proof that sales of expensive audio gear are declining?

The Placebo Effect is brought up in a number of different places in this thread. Personally, I always wonder, is this effect as bad, or as serious, as it's being held up to be? If some individuals feel better spending money in order to believe they are hearing better, is this really a bad, or avoidable, thing? Isn't it simply true that some people will always require equipment to be expensive before they can be satisfied?

Here we go again. I never said that I had proof that sales of expensive audio gear are declining. What I said is that I see evidence of a decline.  Now, I've got a question for you, can you see the difference between those two statements?

Quote from: Axon on 2009-04-16 23:45:15

I think that us ABXers and skeptics are also arguing fallaciously when we decry all high end audio as placebo, ...

Quote from: Axon on 2009-04-18 04:22:34

Me neither - all I'm saying is that the "it's all placebo" argument is extremely easy to dismiss.

The Placebo Effect is brought up in a number of different places in this thread. Personally, I always wonder, is this effect as bad, or as serious, as it's being held up to be? If some individuals feel better spending money in order to believe they are hearing better, is this really a bad, or avoidable, thing? Isn't it simply true that some people will always require equipment to be expensive before they can be satisfied?

Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on 2009-05-01 17:11:23

Here we go again. I never said that I had proof that sales of expensive audio gear are declining. What I said is that I see evidence of a decline.  Now, I've got a question for you, can you see the difference between those two statements?

No, not really. So, I'll ask again, what "evidence" do you have of a decline?

It seems to me that there's more high end manufactures now than ever before. of course, that's just my opinion.

The Advertising Standards Agency in the UK has intervened on audio matters before - they've banned an advert claiming 64kbps HE-AAC was "CD quality", partly based on evidence gathered within this very forum.

Cheers,
David.

Besides the fact that high end audio stores have all but disappeared from my area, I've heard two sucessive generations of scary reports from the high end exhibitors areas of CES.

These days all it takes to have presence as a high end manufacturer is enough money to put up a web page. ;-)

Is this thread on HA about envy over Fremer getting space on Gizmodo when HA doesn't?

What would it take to for HA to get its 15 minutes of fame on sites like Gizmdo, and does the HA community even want it?

The problem that I have is with companies and apparently neutral reviewers who feed off of people's fears and gullibility, getting the victims to pay exhorbitant prices for products that do little or nothing for audio quality.

The FTC sometimes forces a company to remove advertising claims that they cannot substantiate. But have you ever heard of them protecting consumers of audio equipment from false claims? I haven't.

After all, here's a guy who seemed to experience an effect that doesn't really exist? Now, I'm in no way making the claim that that Fremer's system actually sounds better, however, the author certainly seemed to experience just that. Was this only the placebo effect, or self-deception based on visual cues?