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Topic: Can't get DTS wav files to work with KS (Read 5550 times) previous topic - next topic
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Can't get DTS wav files to work with KS

Hi,

Subject pretty much says it all.

Has anyone else been able to play DTS wav files with Foobar through Kernel streaming?  I'm still getting the same results as I would when going through Kmixer.  Works okay with ASIO drivers from M-audio, but the M-audio drivers really limit the card.

I disabled everything I could, but still doesn't work.

Any help would be appreciated.

take care

Can't get DTS wav files to work with KS

Reply #1 –
probably going through 32bit floatingpoint and dithering back to 16 kills DTS signal, can't be helped.
Microsoft Windows: We can't script here, this is bat country.

Can't get DTS wav files to work with KS

Reply #2 –
Yup. ALternatively you can use winamp with dsp disabled & with ASIO output. That works, on this end anyway.
Perhaps an option to turn off 32bit processing & dithering?

Still, what will be the best is ASIO in fb2k. Kernel Streaming demands the soundcard exclusively while ASIO works more like directsound. I can play music with fb2k & still hear my ICQ sounds or click on a media file to play then shut down fb2k instead of clicking now & then WMP complaining it can't access the soundcard.

Can't get DTS wav files to work with KS

Reply #3 –
making it possible to "disable" 32bit floatingpoint processing would simply mean killing superior handling of lossy format for a bunch of people playing weird files that don't contain regular PCM data.
i'll rather look into possibility of convincing current 32bit core to output bit-identical results with 16bit source (with volume set to 0 and DSP / replaygain disabled).

Quote
Still, what will be the best is ASIO in fb2k. Kernel Streaming demands the soundcard exclusively while ASIO works more like directsound. I can play music with fb2k & still hear my ICQ sounds or click on a media file to play then shut down fb2k instead of clicking now & then WMP complaining it can't access the soundcard.
must be system-specific, using KS output doesnt block other sounds here (i can even play Quake while listening to music through KS), most of other people report the same.
Microsoft Windows: We can't script here, this is bat country.

Can't get DTS wav files to work with KS

Reply #4 –
Really? Hmm, gotta figure out why it doesn't work in my system. Thanks for the heads up & all the hard work!

Can't get DTS wav files to work with KS

Reply #5 –
Quote
i'll rather look into possibility of convincing current 32bit core to output bit-identical results with 16bit source (with volume set to 0 and DSP / replaygain disabled).

I can go for that.

I've been wanting to play DTS wav files and DTS cds on my computer without any hassles for quite some time now.

Thanks for the quick reply,

take care

Can't get DTS wav files to work with KS

Reply #6 –
Probably depends on your device and/or drivers. Quite possibly, your device only has a single playback stream. Windows 2000 and XP support multiple playback streams on all hardware, through kmixer if necessary. Hmm, not sure, but kmixer may be used for multiple waveout even if the hardware supports multiple streams, as I've noticed some funny results from playing low frequency wave samples in Sound Forge then some system event triggering something at a different sample rate. May have been intereference between the two, or just all in my head.

Can't get DTS wav files to work with KS

Reply #7 –
Getting the bit perfect conversion from 16 to 32 bit and back to work sound like a great idea. If the same works for 24bit files even better.

Thomas

Can't get DTS wav files to work with KS

Reply #8 –
It's a M-Audio Delta Dio 2496 running the professional version of the drivers. Anyone else has this problem? WinXP.

Can't get DTS wav files to work with KS

Reply #9 –
Quote
Anyway, according to Microsoft's documentation, Kernel Streaming should take over the audio device:
Note
Using the DirectKS approach results in exclusive access to the audio device, which can break many aspects of the user experience, including disabling warning alert sounds and loss of interoperability with other audio applications.


Previous Hydrogen Audio Winamp KS Output Thread

It seems that my system IS working correctly. Oh well, guess it's back to hoping that ASIO support will be released. Thanks again PP for answering so many questions.

Can't get DTS wav files to work with KS

Reply #10 –
Quote
Getting the bit perfect conversion from 16 to 32 bit and back to work sound like a great idea. If the same works for 24bit files even better.

This will disable dithering.... and won't be lossless for 24bit file to 16 bit output (truncating)
just for 16bit to 16bit, 24bit to 24bit or 16bit to 24bit.

There should be some info in database to only disable it on encoded files.
I've changed only because of myself.
Remember, when you quote me, you're quoting AstralStorm.
(read: this account is dead)

Can't get DTS wav files to work with KS

Reply #11 –
Same for me with M-Audio AP 24/96
By the way, 96 kHz by itself works fine, but 24 bit don't. Any idea ?

Regards,
Wolfgang

Can't get DTS wav files to work with KS

Reply #12 –
@Bedeox

Obviously you can't expect to get 24 to 16 bit working with or without dithering.

However inthe sequence , 24 bit into 32 bit floating point, no processing and then back to 24bit output could be done bit transparent since the mantissa happens to be 24bits? It is unclear to me why dithering would contribute anything here. Is it not just a good check whether all the conversion are done correctly?

A setting for transparency might let you shortcut the conversions but am I missing something about why this should not also work in the normal processing pipeline?

Cheers

    Thomas

Can't get DTS wav files to work with KS

Reply #13 –
@wgrumblat:If it doesn't work, then it isn't 24bit or has broken drivers.
Are you using standard Windows drivers?

@thomaspf:
Dithering is a method of increasing dynamic range using special, very quiet noise.
This additional noise destroys DTS data.

When you're dividing bitrate, you have to lose quality:
3.1244515616176
3.124451561

But dithering makes our ears hear sounds, which don't fit in the image,
even if they're cut. (lowest volume/bits)

For example there is
3.124451561
3.124451562
3.124451561
3.124451562
3.124451561
3.124451562
3.124451562

And you could hear something similar to this:
3.1244515616

And yes, it could be made lossless if you turn off dithering,
which isn't possible right now.
I've changed only because of myself.
Remember, when you quote me, you're quoting AstralStorm.
(read: this account is dead)

Can't get DTS wav files to work with KS

Reply #14 –
Quote
Same for me with M-Audio AP 24/96
By the way, 96 kHz by itself works fine, but 24 bit don't. Any idea?

M-Audio Audiophile 2496 works in 96kHz 24bit here.

W2k
Kernel Streaming
Driver Version: 5.10.00.0027

Can't get DTS wav files to work with KS

Reply #15 –
Bedeox,

this is what I understood about dithering but here is where I get confused. If you have source material that is mastered to 24/96 my assumption is that the noise has been shaped to the optimal by the releasing studio or in case of a direct recording you take the bits you get from the converter and put them on the disk.

Foobar or any other player can transform this to 32 bit for effect processing and digital attenuation. In case you don't do any of this should the goal not be to transform exactly back to the bits you started with. Changing a single bit is just distortion at some level or the other?

Cheers

    Thomas

Can't get DTS wav files to work with KS

Reply #16 –
Yes, it should, but current pipeline adds dithering even if no processing is done
(e.g. DSPs excluding channel converters) and there is no bitrate dividing.
It's up to the Peter to fix this.
I've changed only because of myself.
Remember, when you quote me, you're quoting AstralStorm.
(read: this account is dead)

Can't get DTS wav files to work with KS

Reply #17 –
DSPs do not add dithering. The signal passes through the entire pipeline as a 32 bit float (in the range of -1.0 ... +1.0) and is converted to 16 or 24 bit with dithering before it hits the output plug-ins.

Have you tried disabling the 6db hard limiter?

Can't get DTS wav files to work with KS

Reply #18 –
Is this a special 32bit floating point format that was invented for foobar?

Cheers

    Thomas

Can't get DTS wav files to work with KS

Reply #19 –
No.

Can't get DTS wav files to work with KS

Reply #20 –
Quote
DSPs do not add dithering.
I think you misunderstood me.

What I mean is that there should be no dithering added
if there is no DSP (esp. ReplayGain/limiter) and bit depth is lower or same as output bit depth.
And a switch to disable dithering even if there is processing.
I've changed only because of myself.
Remember, when you quote me, you're quoting AstralStorm.
(read: this account is dead)

Can't get DTS wav files to work with KS

Reply #21 –
Does anyone have a link were I can read up on this 32 bit floating point format. 32bit floats in the range from [-1.0, 1.0] is something I have never heard of. IEEE754 32 bit floating point numbers implemented on most computers are in the range ± ~10-44.85 to ~1038.53 with sign followed by 8 bit exponent and a 23bit mantissa.


Representing 24 bit integers in a 23bit mantissa mean you potentially loose resolution right there, so I am wondering what this format is?

Cheers

    Thomas

Can't get DTS wav files to work with KS

Reply #22 –
Yes, it uses the IEEE 32 bit float format. Yes, it only uses numbers in the range of -1.0 through +1.0 to represent the full volume range. Yes, if you mess around with libvorbis, the floating point data that goes in and/or comes out is also at this scale, before it is translated to or from PCM. In RIFF WAV format, format code 3.