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Topic: FLAC "compresses" audio by throwing away data (Read 9432 times) previous topic - next topic
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FLAC "compresses" audio by throwing away data

I need to convert to mp3 some 40 CC tapes and decided to store them in FLAC before encoding. Now, I have recorded some 10 hours when I noticed that they play jerky, because they consist from pieces of original. At first I thought it is problem of recording. I have 3Ghz P-IV + SATA RAID stripping array, but I was doing something in between so I thought it was my fault. Then I moved the recording to idle Celeron 2GHz with UDMA 133 and again the playback is jerky.
Now I discovered that the files start playing jerky only after saving in FLAC when they become 30 min. instead of 45 min. It turns out that FLAC "compreses" sound by throwing away "unwanted" audio.
I am recording in Cool Edit and saving in FLAC using Windows Audio Codec Manager.
When I tryed to decode file using utility FLAC frontend.exe it told me at first that it can decode only FLAC files, when I changed the extension, it showed me the lost sync error which I posted about few days erlyer: http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....91&#entry302191
Can I recover my recordings or they lost forever. I swear, I will never use FLAC again, please help me this last time.

FLAC "compresses" audio by throwing away data

Reply #1 –
Don't you think that if FLAC were faulty like you said, thousands of people would have noticed it too ?

The FLAC format is fine. It is your hardware, filesystem or tools that is/are broken. Have you even tried the original FLAC tool ? Is that broken too ?

FLAC "compresses" audio by throwing away data

Reply #2 –
Try recording to WAV first using cooledit, and then compress the resulting file with FLAC. If the WAV file isn't choppy and the FLAC copy is then there is probably something wrong with your version of FLAC or your settings or something else.

I seriously doubt FLAC is to blame here.

FLAC "compresses" audio by throwing away data

Reply #3 –
FLAC is not at fault. Many people have been using FLAC for a number of years.

The problem likely lies with whomever wrote the FLAC encoder or decoder that is acting up and giving you problems. While the FLAC base code is relatively bug free and has stood the test of time (many years of use), the individual implementor of the FLAC plug-in or tool you are using may be at fault.

I have encountered this with various filters and applications that allegedly support FLAC. Programmers tend to be not the best at testing exceptions and every possible case. In fact, many programs in the past failed to even support mono FLAC files, so I had to write to several of them to get them to fix that over the years. They likely never tested with mono FLAC files.

As with any open-source codec, the developer of the codec is not at fault if the person who implements it inside their program makes mistakes or coding errors. Even Plextor had problems implementing FLAC in their Plextools program a while back. Also I remember spoon, the developer of dbPoweramp, complaining about problems with FLAC's interface when he began implementing that codec in his audio tools. Hopefully FLAC 1.1.2 code has improved documentation for developers to make it easier for developers to properly implement FLAC support in their programs.

Some programmers simply try to "slap FLAC support" into their programs, and some get the tagging wrong (i.e. they use IDv2 at beginning of file by default instead of Vorbis style tags like they are supposed to use, etc.). Most are simply not used to the kind of default tagging that the FLAC format uses.

There have been examples of very little testing of FLAC implementations for compatability by some developers, so in those cases you must be the tester and report back to the particular developer of the product if you find any problems in how they implemented FLAC. I have done this with many programs supporting FLAC on both the PC and Mac platform, and most developers have modified their code to get their FLAC support 100% compliant with Josh's FLAC specs.

So please don't blame FLAC or give up on it for lossless encoding. Just do some testing first, before encoding many hours of audio data, to make sure your programs truly supports FLAC correctly. The FlacTester tool is helpful in determining if your FLAC files were corrupted or not: http://www.vuplayer.com/other.htm

I wish you success in using FLAC. It is a popular and useful format.

FLAC "compresses" audio by throwing away data

Reply #4 –
What is the best audio editor? Cooledit!
Have you tryed your codec with it? No!
What is the value of codec if I have first to save in wav, then convert?
And then convert back before using?
I realy was compressing 22Khz mono, maybe there is problem.
But not developers of programs have to test codecs.
You guys before spreading software have to test it first.
Why do you list your codec in Windows Audio Codec Manager then if you know it works faulty?
What do you want to explain to Bill Gates?
Maybe just write it correctly?
You even have not read my post carefuly.
CoolEdit is not using any plugins for FLAC.
Noone have wrote FLAC plugin for CoolEdit.
The FLACs are saved in CoolEdit using WINDOWS AUDIO CODEC MANAGER.
The Windows audio codec manger allows saving and opening audio files in any audio program using installed codecs.
It is not third party plugin, it is host operating system which tryes to support your faulty codec, do you copy? 
I converted 22 khz mono file from wav, it works.
And I have installed only latest version from sourceforge.
But the file is not opened then by CoolEdit nor eny other audio editing software.
What is a purpose of your codec if files cannot be saved and opened in your format?
To encode, store and listen?
Forgive me, my attitude, but in this case it is just piece of junk.

FLAC "compresses" audio by throwing away data

Reply #5 –
Quote
It is not third party plugin, it is host operating system which tryes to support your faulty codec, do you copy?   [a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=303354"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Wrong. The operating system does not ship with FLAC support.

FLAC "compresses" audio by throwing away data

Reply #6 –
Well, I think you should install first of all your Foobar2K properly, exactly with the .DLL of foo_flac which should has been installed initially together with the application data (in new versions of course)
Then when you list your musics in Foobar, right click the music that you wanna to convert from, and set up your convertor to the FLAC decoder&encoder...

FLAC "compresses" audio by throwing away data

Reply #7 –
Quote
FLAC "compresses" audio by throwing away data

What are you trying to say? FLAC, in general, is normally lossless.

Quote
I swear, I will never use FLAC again, please help me this last time.[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=303205"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

If you're not going to use FLAC again, why ask for help this time?

FLAC "compresses" audio by throwing away data

Reply #8 –
Quote
The FLACs are saved in CoolEdit using WINDOWS AUDIO CODEC MANAGER.
The Windows audio codec manger allows saving and opening audio files in any audio program using installed codecs.
It is not third party plugin, it is host operating system which tryes to support your faulty codec, do you copy?
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


What program did you use to install FLAC so that the Windows ACM would recognize it? There is not an official FLAC codec for Windows ACM, so whatever installed codec you are using is not an official FLAC codec. Most likely it is derived from the official source code. The only two that I know of are [a href="http://www.illiminable.com/ogg/]Illiminable[/url] and CoreFLAC. So perhaps if you are using one of these you could submit this as a bug to the authors of these filters?

FLAC "compresses" audio by throwing away data

Reply #9 –
Quote
Quote
The FLACs are saved in CoolEdit using WINDOWS AUDIO CODEC MANAGER.
The Windows audio codec manger allows saving and opening audio files in any audio program using installed codecs.
It is not third party plugin, it is host operating system which tryes to support your faulty codec, do you copy?
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


What program did you use to install FLAC so that the Windows ACM would recognize it? There is not an official FLAC codec for Windows ACM, so whatever installed codec you are using is not an official FLAC codec. Most likely it is derived from the official source code. The only two that I know of are [a href="http://www.illiminable.com/ogg/]Illiminable[/url] and CoreFLAC. So perhaps if you are using one of these you could submit this as a bug to the authors of these filters?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=303360"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Also, I will repeat - there is NO official FLAC ACM, The problem is in the ACM, not the FLAC libraries.

The two projects mentioned above are DirectShow filters, not ACM, which is a bonus as they are more flexible, and the work!

FLAC "compresses" audio by throwing away data

Reply #10 –
OK! It turns out it was the Core Flac, it came installed with ACE MegaCodecs pack. But why didn't you wrote ACM support then, how can I use DirectShow filters to save and open files in CoolEdit? Do you know a good lossless codec which can be used with CoolEdit?

FLAC "compresses" audio by throwing away data

Reply #11 –
You can use Case's FLAC CEP/Auditon filter.
"Facts do not cease to exist just because they are ignored."
—Aldous Huxley

FLAC "compresses" audio by throwing away data

Reply #12 –
Wavpack has a plugin for Cooledit/Audition.

FLAC "compresses" audio by throwing away data

Reply #13 –
Quote
You can use Case's FLAC CEP/Auditon filter.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=303368"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


At first glance it works fine.

FLAC "compresses" audio by throwing away data

Reply #14 –
Quote
Wavpack has a plugin for Cooledit/Audition.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=303370"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


This also works and has a little bit better compression rate for given waveform.

FLAC "compresses" audio by throwing away data

Reply #15 –
Did you just come barging in, with little understanding of the plugins and ACM system, call others' work pieces of junk, stating FLAC to be of no value, accuse others of being stupid and not reading carefully, make nonsense offhand comments about Bill Gates (??), and end thanklessly with "At first glance it works fine", and still receive structured, courteous, honest, factual attempts to help?

Wow. Anywhere else you'd be flamed to vapour.

FLAC "compresses" audio by throwing away data

Reply #16 –
It's a testament to the tolerance of regular members, if nothing else

FLAC "compresses" audio by throwing away data

Reply #17 –
You didn't mention in your initial post anything I saw about CoolEdit. That would have helped us point you to the 2 CoolEdit/Audition filters for FLAC. Also Adobe Audition is the latest version, but CoolEdit should work also with both the filter.

As previously mentioned in this post, Case's plug-in for FLAC works, but it is based on the older FLAC 1.1.0 code.

The latest FLAC 1.1.2 code is used in the second Cool Edit/Audition filter for FLAC written by author of VuPlayer located on the page at:
http://www.vuplayer.com/other.htm

By the way, both of these FLAC CoolEdit/Abode Audition plug-ins/filters are listed on the official FLAC page in the download area. Check out the page at:
http://flac.sourceforge.net/download.html

Both should work fine for your needs.

FLAC "compresses" audio by throwing away data

Reply #18 –
Quote
You didn't mention in your initial post anything I saw about CoolEdit.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Quote
I am recording in Cool Edit and saving in FLAC using Windows Audio Codec Manager.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=303205"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


It was easy to miss.  Anyway, glad you got it working, filo74.  Also, in the future, you might wanna look to see if there's any official documentation on plugins for formats like this.  On [a href="http://flac.sourceforge.net/download.html]the FLAC download page[/url], under "Players and plugins," Case's plugin is listed for Adobe Audition/CoolEdit (as guest0101 also stated, but I failed to notice  )

FLAC "compresses" audio by throwing away data

Reply #19 –
Quote
You didn't mention in your initial post anything I saw about CoolEdit. That would have helped us point you to the 2 CoolEdit/Audition filters for FLAC. Also Adobe Audition is the latest version, but CoolEdit should work also with both the filter.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=303387"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


In my very first post I in this thread I wrote I am using CoolEdit and ACM.
Do I have to cite my own post?
If you don't start accusing everybody in selling a soul to devil noone bothers to answer.

FLAC "compresses" audio by throwing away data

Reply #20 –
Not even slightly true.

FLAC "compresses" audio by throwing away data

Reply #21 –
Sorry but I didn't see your mention of Cool Edit prior to my post. Anyway, glad you found the 2 plug-ins for FLAC. Hope this works for you and that you enjoy FLAC.

FLAC "compresses" audio by throwing away data

Reply #22 –
Quote
Quote
Quote
The FLACs are saved in CoolEdit using WINDOWS AUDIO CODEC MANAGER.
The Windows audio codec manger allows saving and opening audio files in any audio program using installed codecs.
It is not third party plugin, it is host operating system which tryes to support your faulty codec, do you copy?
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


What program did you use to install FLAC so that the Windows ACM would recognize it? There is not an official FLAC codec for Windows ACM, so whatever installed codec you are using is not an official FLAC codec. Most likely it is derived from the official source code. The only two that I know of are [a href="http://www.illiminable.com/ogg/]Illiminable[/url] and CoreFLAC. So perhaps if you are using one of these you could submit this as a bug to the authors of these filters?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=303360"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Also, I will repeat - there is NO official FLAC ACM, The problem is in the ACM, not the FLAC libraries.

The two projects mentioned above are DirectShow filters, not ACM, which is a bonus as they are more flexible, and the work!
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=303361"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


My apologies, I assumed he was using a directshow filter because I didn't think someone had made a FLAC ACM. 

FLAC "compresses" audio by throwing away data

Reply #23 –
Quote
The two projects mentioned above are DirectShow filters, not ACM, which is a bonus as they are more flexible, and the work!


jcsston added an ACM codec also into the CoreFLAC pack, to allow Cyrius to add FLAC-in-MKA support in VdubMod, for editing/preview ( not encoding ). To my knowledge, he disabled encoding in this ACM codec, as FLAC is VBR by default and ACM doesnt support VBR at all.

Regards

Christian
matroska project admin
http://www.matroska.org

FLAC "compresses" audio by throwing away data

Reply #24 –
Quote
Wow. Anywhere else you'd be flamed to vapour.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=303379"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

*nods silently, because he's too suprised and confused to say something - and asks himself if the FLAC-devs recently got any "generous" donations*

- Lyx
I am arrogant and I can afford it because I deliver.