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Topic: Remastered cd's. Have I waited to long? (Read 15669 times) previous topic - next topic
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Remastered cd's. Have I waited to long?

Reply #25 –
Sebastion,
Are those values for the current release? If so, I may go grab a copy today. They look pretty good!

Remastered cd's. Have I waited to long?

Reply #26 –
They are from "Pink Floyd - The Wall (30th Anniversary Edition)" (from 2000 IIRC). On the CD, I see the number "489101 2" - not sure what that means - maybe UPC?  The bar-code is "9 399700 047370"

Remastered cd's. Have I waited to long?

Reply #27 –
This is a screenshot taken directly from my foobar 0.8.3 window. These RG numbers are from a flac rip I just did of the 1994 remaster of The Wall. Both discs were scanned as an album (this is what I normally do with double discs/boxed sets). Plenty of dynamics I believe.



The great thing is I purchased it only a few months ago at my local HMV.
Acid8000 aka. PhilDEE

Remastered cd's. Have I waited to long?

Reply #28 –
Quote
Quote
"They are. Why does that suck? "

Going by the posted numbers. The first boxset has the lowest RG values. The second 10 cd boxset AND the individual cd's (that I want), have the crappier values. Thats what sucks. As for used. I had to buy an original used Ozzy cd due to the rerecording (mentioned by the other poster). It was reprensented as in good condition. The cd had more scratches than any I have ever seen! I won't deal with that again. First and last ebay transaction!
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=353889"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

To keep a sense of perspective, the difference between the ReplayGain values for the first and later box sets is fairly minimal. I've just done a more detailed analysis of "Good Times Bad Times" (because I happened to have that track from both sets easily to hand). On the earlier box set, it peaks at -0.4dB/-0.51dB (L/R), while the later box set peaks at 0dB/0dB. However, after normalising the earlier one to 0/0, the RMS values are still very slightly different between the two sets (-14.6/-14.2 v. -14.1/-14.4). So clearly something other than simple linear amplitude adjustment was done for the later release, but the differences are so minimal that I suspect it may be subtle EQ changes rather than additional compression.

To be frank, after seeing how close these measurements are, I'm amazed that the two sets sound different. But the fact is that I think they do sound different, with the newer set somehow sounding a little harsher to me - fortunately that's not too great a problem for a band like Zeppelin, which benefits from a little roughness in the sound. Maybe it's just some kind of psychoacoustic effect caused by the marginally different level and/or EQ.



Is it something you can ABX consistently? The 0.5 dB peak level difference alone could theoretically be audible.

How do RPG values for the same tracks on the first box versus the 10 CD box work out?




Quote
But the bottom line is that the current Zeppelin CD releases sound pretty good, not like modern CDs that are completely butchered with hypercompression.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=353918"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]



Indeed...that was why I asked about the teeth-gnashing above.  The early 90s Zep CDs are 'old school' compared to modern dynamically squashed CDs.  Has anyone compared the most recent 'greatest hits' (or whatever it was called...came out a year or three ago) package to the older CDs?  I'm gonna bet the dynamic range shrank.

Remastered cd's. Have I waited to long?

Reply #29 –
Quote
They are from "Pink Floyd - The Wall (30th Anniversary Edition)" (from 2000 IIRC). On the CD, I see the number "489101 2" - not sure what that means - maybe UPC?  The bar-code is "9 399700 047370"
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=354008"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]



You mean 20th Anniversary, unless you hail from our future. ;>


For comparison , here is ostensibly the same edition  (USA purchased, Columbia  C2K68519 Pink Floyd The Wall [20th Anniversary Edition 1979-1999]) , RP scanned as one album.  Curiously, the track gain values are different (generally greater than) yours.  Is it possible the damned thing was remastered *yet again*, hotter, for the German market?  Wish You Were Here and Animals from the same 1997/2000 remaster series are also in the capture.  What you don't see are all the other PF albums I have. Interestingly, Meddle (from the Shine On box) has an album RP value of -1.05 (the highest rp value of the Floyd CDs I have) , while Saucerful , from the same boxed set , has an album RPG of -6.32, among the lowest.


Remastered cd's. Have I waited to long?

Reply #30 –
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Quote
To be frank, after seeing how close these measurements are, I'm amazed that the two sets sound different. But the fact is that I think they do sound different, with the newer set somehow sounding a little harsher to me - fortunately that's not too great a problem for a band like Zeppelin, which benefits from a little roughness in the sound. Maybe it's just some kind of psychoacoustic effect caused by the marginally different level and/or EQ.

Is it something you can ABX consistently? The 0.5 dB peak level difference alone could theoretically be audible.[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=354424"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I've never done an ABX comparison - my feeling that they sound different is entirely subjective, so of course it doesn't really count for much. And while studying the tracks in more detail, I'm beginning to think that it could just be the level difference that I notice. Perhaps in a level-matched ABX, there may well be no audible difference. Then again, my feeling has always been that the first box sounds cleaner than the 10CD box, and yet the normal psychoacoustic effect is that the louder one sounds better.

If I get the time, I'll level-match them for a proper ABX and report back.

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How do RPG values for the same tracks on the first box versus the 10 CD box work out?[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=354424"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Because I only have the 10CD box ripped (in FLAC) to my music server, I had to dig out the first box for comparison and so only measured the RPG for "Good Times Bad Times". It is -5.67 on the first box and -6.18 on the 10CD box.

Remastered cd's. Have I waited to long?

Reply #31 –
I have the MFSL masters of pink floyd's the wall, meddle, and DSOTM

replaygain_track_gain = +2.13 dB
replaygain_track_peak = 0.817412
replaygain_album_gain = +2.42 dB
replaygain_album_peak = 0.921825

that's Brick in the wall part 2

the last track of the first disc has +12dB track gain!

Talk about dynamic headroom, i think i win best mastered version

-Joe

edit, their a little spendy since their out of print, like $300+
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...:POST0:RECO:BIN

my friend tells me you can find them on torrent sites though. dunno if their FLAC like all of mine i got from my dad.

-Joe

Remastered cd's. Have I waited to long?

Reply #32 –
Are you guys not a little too much concerned about replaygain values?

I mean, it may be used as an indicator. E.g. the same track having -3.0db on one version and -10db on the other version: You can be pretty sure that the latter is worse.

But reading this thread is something like: Your version has -5.0db, mine has -3.0 - so yours sounds much worse.

Maybe we should actually listen to some samples. In the end it might turn out that some people prefer (slightly, not extremely) more compressed tracks. Of course this will always be subjective and there's no track that will be better objectively.

edit: the problem is also that there's no reference to compare with

Remastered cd's. Have I waited to long?

Reply #33 –
Quote
I have the MFSL masters of pink floyd's the wall, meddle, and DSOTM
...
my friend tells me you can find them on torrent sites though. dunno if their FLAC like all of mine i got from my dad.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=354458"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Yes, you can find them in FLAC.  A little birdy told me so.

Remastered cd's. Have I waited to long?

Reply #34 –
I have the first CD mastered version of The Wall. Bought it back in 1987 (early days of CDs) in Belgium where I did my military service. It has "de-emphasis" flag set on each track (viewed in EAC), so I believe it must be de-emphasised before calculating correct RG values, although I wouldn't think it differs much.

Remastered cd's. Have I waited to long?

Reply #35 –
How many versions of The Wall are there? Mine has completely different numbers from all the others I've seen.
Acid8000 aka. PhilDEE

Remastered cd's. Have I waited to long?

Reply #36 –
Regarding the difference between the first Zeppelin box set and the 10CD set:
Quote
If I get the time, I'll level-match them for a proper ABX and report back.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=354455"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Well, I've just done an ABX test of an extract from "Good Times Bad Times", after level-matching them.

On my first attempt at ABX-ing them, I scored 100%. But then I realised that the channels are reversed between the two versions! (What clown did that? And which version is correct?). After swapping the channels on one, I re-ABX-ed, and could not tell them apart.

The strange thing is that when the channels were swapped and I could distinguish them, one sounded as if it was more "open", with a wider stereo image. Since I was using headphones, I think this must probably be due to the different response capabilities of my two ears.

So my conclusion after all this is that the two versions of the Zeppelin remasters do in fact sound the same (to me) once they have been level-matched and channel-matched. Presumably my subjective opinion that the earlier set sounds better must have been to do with the channel swapping interacting with my imbalanced ears. (Nobody has perfectly matched ears, of course).

The fact remains, however, that the raw data is NOT exactly the same, even after normalising them both to the same peak level. The waveforms do look subtly different, even if they sound the same. So they've been fiddled with in some way between the two releases.

Remastered cd's. Have I waited to long?

Reply #37 –
Quote
Regarding the difference between the first Zeppelin box set and the 10CD set:
Quote
If I get the time, I'll level-match them for a proper ABX and report back.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Well, I've just done an ABX test of an extract from "Good Times Bad Times", after level-matching them.

On my first attempt at ABX-ing them, I scored 100%. But then I realised that the channels are reversed between the two versions! (What clown did that? And which version is correct?). After swapping the channels on one, I re-ABX-ed, and could not tell them apart.

The strange thing is that when the channels were swapped and I could distinguish them, one sounded as if it was more "open", with a wider stereo image. Since I was using headphones, I think this must probably be due to the different response capabilities of my two ears.

So my conclusion after all this is that the two versions of the Zeppelin remasters do in fact sound the same (to me) once they have been level-matched and channel-matched. Presumably my subjective opinion that the earlier set sounds better must have been to do with the channel swapping interacting with my imbalanced ears. (Nobody has perfectly matched ears, of course).

The fact remains, however, that the raw data is NOT exactly the same, even after normalising them both to the same peak level. The waveforms do look subtly different, even if they sound the same. So they've been fiddled with in some way between the two releases.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=354594"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]



There's lots of channel swapping between old LZ CDs and the remasters [a href="http://forums.lukpac.org/viewtopic.php?t=1991&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0](here's a thread on another forum about it)[/url]...but I didn't know the box set vs 10 disc did the same!  The official story is that the 10 disc set is simply the two earlier boxed sets, as mastered by George Marino with J. Page's input, resequenced back to their album order with segues restored...we now see this isn't quite true.  I wonder what the *real* story behind those remastering sessions was...

Remastered cd's. Have I waited to long?

Reply #38 –
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How many versions of The Wall are there? Mine has completely different numbers from all the others I've seen.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=354478"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


When did you buy it? If since 2000, could you post the numbers please?

Remastered cd's. Have I waited to long?

Reply #39 –
I did. Look above.
Acid8000 aka. PhilDEE

Remastered cd's. Have I waited to long?

Reply #40 –
Quote
There's lots of channel swapping between old LZ CDs and the remasters (here's a thread on another forum about it)...but I didn't know the box set vs 10 disc did the same![a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=354629"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Interesting thread (on a forum I was previously unaware of). I'm surprised that nobody on that thread has remarked on the blatent digital glitches on "The Ocean" remaster. Two of them are so bad (at around 0:45 and 0:47) that I had to go in there with a WAV editor to fix them then re-burn the album to CDR. The more I discover about the Zep remasters, the less respect I have for those responsible.

Remastered cd's. Have I waited to long?

Reply #41 –
Quote
Quote
There's lots of channel swapping between old LZ CDs and the remasters (here's a thread on another forum about it)...but I didn't know the box set vs 10 disc did the same![a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=354629"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Interesting thread (on a forum I was previously unaware of). I'm surprised that nobody on that thread has remarked on the blatent digital glitches on "The Ocean" remaster. Two of them are so bad (at around 0:45 and 0:47) that I had to go in there with a WAV editor to fix them then re-burn the album to CDR. The more I discover about the Zep remasters, the less respect I have for those responsible.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=354739"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]



I'll bet its sometimes awkward to have a rock star 'helping' with remastering....especially one of Page's vintage, habits, and almost certain hearing loss.   

Remastered cd's. Have I waited to long?

Reply #42 –
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"I have the 1990 Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab version of The Wall...the 24K gold disc layer (big pimpin'!)   IIRC, it album gained out around -2.53 or some-odd db."

I just checked a online dealer for that release. It's only $400.00
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=353899"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Is that used, or new?  I have a 1990 Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab version of The Wall too, a longbox copy, never opened.  What would that be worth?  Do these releases keep appreciating or do they kind of top out?  I'm not looking to sell it, just curious.