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Topic: Experiencing Random Clicking when recording via my Win7 system (Read 6341 times) previous topic - next topic
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Experiencing Random Clicking when recording via my Win7 system

I installed windows 7 Pro 64 bit a while ago but have only just got round to trying to sort out my audio set up (I still have XP installed in a dual boot system and have continued to use that for
audio work). I have the latest drivers for my M-Audio Delta 66 and my Creative Audigy ZS (actually I'm using the KX drivers on this). I've done all the usual optimisations for audio work.

Via the Wave and WaveRT drivers I'm getting random clicks - like someone turning on a light in another room - when recording via either card.The clicks are fairly infrequent - maybe 10 to 20 times
during a 3 minute clip - and not always very loud but noticeable enough to be annoying. Previously recorded pieces play back without problem.

I don't think it's anything to do with system load as Task Manager is showing System load between 0% - 3% on recording and playback. I'm sure it's not a buffer issue either as making the bufers
very large (5 seconds or more) makes no difference. Anyway it doesn't sound like under-sized buffers either - it sounds mostly like distortion from a mild overload but nothing is anywhere near the
red.

Interestingly, I can record flawlessly via the onboard Realtek sound under Win 7 and using exactly the same settings, levels etc under XP everything still works properly via either card too. So,
all I can think is that this means there is something in my Win7 environment that is causing the problems to anything connected to the PCI bus. Does that make sense?

One thing that may be relevant is that if I record silence - everything connected but no audio playing - I don't get any clicks at all. I'll also mention, though I'm sure it's irrelevant that I get the same results whatever recording software I use.

I've uploaded a short example here. Any help would be gratefully received

Experiencing Random Clicking when recording via my Win7 system

Reply #2 –
Quote
I don't think it's anything to do with system load as Task Manager is showing System load between 0% - 3% on recording and playback.

Here's the thing...  It's not just the amount of CPU usage.  If some other application or driver is "hogging" the CPU for a millisecond or so  too long, the CPU doesn't get around to reading the buffer in time, your buffer overflows and you get a glitch.

Quote
I'm sure it's not a buffer issue either as making the buffers very large (5 seconds or more) makes no difference.
Seconds or milliseconds?  I'm not entirely sure how the hardware is constructed, but I think there is a limit to the buffer memory available.

I zoomed-in on the glitch.    I've never looked at a buffer-overflow glitch before, and it doesn't look exactly as I would expect  It's not clipping (overload).    It almost has to be a driver or buffer problem.  Something is fouling-up the digital audio data stream. 


Worse news... Looking at your sample in spectral view,* I can see about 15 glitches in your 5-second sample! 





* I used Sample View in Wave Repair to help me visually "find" & zoom-in on the glitch before switching back to a regular time domain (waveform) view.    Wave Repair wouldn't open a mono file, so I converted it to stereo in GoldWave first.

Experiencing Random Clicking when recording via my Win7 system

Reply #3 –
Hardware conflicts can cause clicking issues and it's well known issue that not all creative cards likes other audio hardware present. WiFi controller can be pain in the a**. IRQ sharing can normally be checked throug Device manager and system information tool shows possible conflicts.

Here's an example of bad situation:





Juha

Experiencing Random Clicking when recording via my Win7 system

Reply #4 –
Thanks for the replies.

I've been down the IRQ conflict route previously and found that there isn't one. I've also tried disabling known likely sources of interference - network cards, USB, On board sound etc. - until I had nothing non-essential running except my M-Audio card. I still got the clicks. I've just been through the process again but this time disabling everything except my Creative card. The clicks were much reduced. I only got 2 audible ones in the course of a 1 minute clip. I'll try it again later to see if that was just luck or whether there is a repeatable improvement without the M-Audio card. I hope that's not the case as I need it's 4 channel capability sometimes. I'd also be surprised to have problems with a card that's widely used, though I know they've lost favour since the Avid takeover.

Experiencing Random Clicking when recording via my Win7 system

Reply #5 –
If you can change the buffer to over 5s, it is not the buffer you are looking for. You need to increase the DMA buffer (to increase the recording latency) so that a delay of tens of msecs in your CPU reading the values stored to RAM by the soundcard will not cause buffer overrun. Both soundcards should handle some hundreds of msecs.

Your delta 66 supports up DMA buffer up to 256kB http://lxr.free-electrons.com/source/sound...ice1712.c#L1145 . That makes for two periods (standard for ASIO) stereo at 96/32 256kB buffer/2 periods/2 channels/ 4 bytes per sample (ice1712 native format)/96000 samples per second = over 100msecs of maximum latency time. But you need to find a way to setup that in your OS/drivers.

Experiencing Random Clicking when recording via my Win7 system

Reply #6 –
I've spent time tracking down conflicts that let to input samples not making it into the recording. Where one, or many, samples are missing, there is a click. The waveform in your sample does not look like what missing samples generated in the recordings I made. Yours instead look like something is being added. It is as if very short blips of noise from somewhere else are being mixed into your input.

Experiencing Random Clicking when recording via my Win7 system

Reply #7 –
Quote from: AndyH-ha on
I've spent time tracking down conflicts that let to input samples not making it into the recording. Where one, or many, samples are missing, there is a click. The waveform in your sample does not look like what missing samples generated in the recordings I made. Yours instead look like something is being added. It is as if very short blips of noise from somewhere else are being mixed into your input.

Yes, it sounds like electrical interference rather than missing samples. That's one of the reasons I don't think it's a buffering issue. However, if it is interference - internal or external - I can't think why it doesn't happen if I boot into XP on the same machine

Experiencing Random Clicking when recording via my Win7 system

Reply #8 –
Quote from: botface on
Yes, it sounds like electrical interference rather than missing samples. That's one of the reasons I don't think it's a buffering issue. However, if it is interference - internal or external - I can't think why it doesn't happen if I boot into XP on the same machine


I disagree. Look at sample 15448. There is a definite 'hole' I estimate to be about 20 samples including the 5 or so where the disruption is.

G²

Experiencing Random Clicking when recording via my Win7 system

Reply #9 –
By far the most likely reason is missing samples due to the CPU not keeping up with reading the samples provided to RAM by the soundcard. And as it happens the most likely cause is usually the case :-)

IMO botface needs to

1. Find out what the current buffer headroom is (how much the CPU lags behind the soundcard) in that specific setup. My 2 cents it will be just a few tens of ms at most.

2. Raise it to max available/working value.

Trivial in linux, perhaps a challenge in black-box windows.

Experiencing Random Clicking when recording via my Win7 system

Reply #10 –
Thanks guys. However, no matter how big or how small I make the buffers - and hence the latency - on either sound card I still get the same degree of clicking unless I make the buffers so small that the recording "lags" behind the sound, presumably due to the CPU not being able to keep up. As you say, phofman, what your suggesting may be trivial in Linux but I don't know how to go about it in Windows. The only things I can change readily are the number of buffers and buffer size - which govern the latency - if I use the Wave drivers and the latency itself in milliseconds if I use the WaveRT drivers

Given that it all works perfectly under XP on the same machine it can't be anything to do with the cards themselves or any of my outboard gear. It can only be software - something within the Win7 environment or the device drivers. Since Google can't find anybody else experiencing the same problem it's not likely to be the drivers and as I've done all the usual optimisations and been through the usual process of eliminating other devices on the machine I'm at a loss to know what else to try except to do all my recording work in XP

Experiencing Random Clicking when recording via my Win7 system

Reply #11 –
Do you get any DPC latency spikes? There are two utilities to test that, one of which also tries to identify the cause.

Which motherboard? Nforce chipset? (those used to be problematic)

Experiencing Random Clicking when recording via my Win7 system

Reply #12 –
Quote from: Brand on
Do you get any DPC latency spikes? There are two utilities to test that, one of which also tries to identify the cause.

Which motherboard? Nforce chipset? (those used to be problematic)

DPC latency checker gives me a clean bill of health.

If it was MB or chipset wouldn't I get problems with XP too? Anyway it's an Intel Core 2 Extreme 3.2GHz on a XFX nForce 790i Ultra

Experiencing Random Clicking when recording via my Win7 system

Reply #13 –
If it were missing samples, which, despite the registered opposition, look to me not to be the case, occurrences other than CPU overload can be at fault. The system taking time to do other things can mean that samples come in are not recorded. even if that time does not use the CPU very intensively.

For instance, Win7 does a great deal more system log writing than any previous OS I've worked with, although my observations do not include WinXP, as I did not have a WinXP machine until recently and haven't paid any attention there. I record almost nothing on this Wins7 system, so I don't know that it might sometime have recording problems, but occasionally it seems to run amok with disk writing when there is no cause from my end, and this puts applications on brief, temporary hold. CPU use is very low during this writing, according to Task Manager.

Recording with M-Audio Delta series does not require extensive hardware power. Until the MB died just a few months ago, I did most of my recording over more than 10 years  with a Audiophile 2496 on a Win95 system running an original AMD K6 at 166Mhz, with 128MB of RAM, and a 9GB hard drive that is much slower than any disk made in the last decade. It handled 24 bit, 96kHz input recorded in floating point format with no difficulty.

Experiencing Random Clicking when recording via my Win7 system

Reply #14 –
Have you tried by monitoring the system while recording?


http://tinyurl.com/nctwfzj


Juha

Experiencing Random Clicking when recording via my Win7 system

Reply #15 –
Thanks. I've monitored activity via Task Manager but this looks more promising.

Thanks for the link

Experiencing Random Clicking when recording via my Win7 system

Reply #17 –
That last post recalls to me that I was originally getting some clicking on playback when this Win7 system was new, even though resources were measured at very low usage. Changing the Power Options settings from the default Balanced to High Performance eliminated them.