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Topic: why don't apple devices play unprotected wma files natively? (Read 9065 times) previous topic - next topic
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why don't apple devices play unprotected wma files natively?

To my surprise (and horror) I discovered that none of the Apple devices like the ipad or iphone can play wma files natively. They require that the files be transcoded into mp3 before they can be imported into itunes.

This seems crazy to me. All my other devices since about 2006  (sansa music player and android tablets) can play both m4a and wma natively. Heck, even  my old  Zune could play m4a files.

Apple already pays for a license for the mp3 codec (i'm assuming), and Microsoft presumably bought a license for the aac codec when they made Zunes. So neither company is averse to using foreign codecs to make their devices more useful.

I'm assuming that the fault lies solely in Apple's corner, but does Microsoft have anything to do with this.

I guess I find it amazing that Sansa is rich enough to buy licenses for wma, mp3 and m4a codecs, but Apple is too poor to pay for wma.

I personally have no problem with Apple's codecs. I rip almost everything from flacs to m4a. I just can't understand why other device manufacturers have been able to do something which all Apple devices seem utterly incapable of.

I would appreciate any insights into this question. Because it seems to be a mystery to me.

why don't apple devices play unprotected wma files natively?

Reply #1 –
The simple answer is that WMA is not part of Apple's own software ecosystem. They sell music in AAC format, which is why their player primarily supports this format. They only support MP3 because it is by far the most widespread format for digital music distribution. I bet Apple would prefer not to support it, since it doesn't have any DRM provisions built in, but leaving it out would cripple their products in the market.

They don't even support FLAC, despite the fact that it's completely open and free to support for anyone. Instead, they only support their own lossless ALAC format, which is functionally identical to any other lossless format (slight compression differences notwithstanding). At least ALAC is free and open source now, but it's still completely pointless in a world where FLAC exists.

So really it's just another case of Apple being Apple.

why don't apple devices play unprotected wma files natively?

Reply #2 –
So the answer is that although Apple can easily afford it, they don't want to allow foreigners into their ecosystem. Maybe the more interesting  question should instead be: why has it been so easy for android devices and small players like Sansa to support both m4a and wma?

why don't apple devices play unprotected wma files natively?

Reply #3 –
WMA is a dead format supported by a company that competed with Apple back in the day. That's basically it.

For what its worth I ported a reverse engineered WMA decoder to Rockbox on the iPods back in the day, and that decoder is now in various iPhone and iPad apps if you want to use it.

why don't apple devices play unprotected wma files natively?

Reply #4 –
Quote from: bigidiot on
I personally have no problem with Apple's codecs. I rip almost everything from flacs to m4a.


It sounds like m4a (I think you mean AAC?) belongs to Apple. And it's not true.

why don't apple devices play unprotected wma files natively?

Reply #5 –
Quote from: bigidiot on
I would appreciate any insights into this question. Because it seems to be a mystery to me.

Selfishness, irresponsibility and greed, which explains most decisions made by overly affluent people.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?  ;~)

why don't apple devices play unprotected wma files natively?

Reply #6 –
Wow, that is news to me that  AAC wasn't Apple's brainchild. But I see from googling around that you are correct.

It might be that the licensing process  for AAC is more straightforward  while the licensing process for WMA is more complicated.

I would guess  that Microsoft's licensing fees for AAC to be discounted to reflect the fact that wma is not considered to be a competitive  codec any longer.  But on the other hand, this is Microsoft, so it's impossible to know what to expect.

A personal note: The reason why this issue even came up for me is that my neighbor asked me to fix her itunes so that her iphone could play all her songs. So far it has taken 9 hours to use Apple's transcode-wma-to-mp3 solution (on an admittedly old and slow laptop).

In retrospect maybe I should have done the transcoding on my laptop instead of hers. But her music collection is a mixture of mp3s, wma, m4a, wavs, so I'm not sure the effort to separate everything would be worth it.

why don't apple devices play unprotected wma files natively?

Reply #7 –
Funny enough, iPods have had the hardware capable of decoding WMA files ever since the introduction of the 3G iPod in 2003 (and likely before).  It is a matter of them unlocking the software end.  At one point WMA and AAC were trying to be the successor to mp3.  MS partnered with different hardware and software vendors to include WMA and Apple chose to adopt AAC (and develop their own encoder).  The success of iPods, iTunes, and the iTunes Store led to the shutdown of other online stores that offered DRMed WMA files (Napster, Rhapsody, etc.) which further led to the death of the format all together.  The success of the iTunes Store, and Apple's adoption of DRM-free music, pushed AAC as a viable lossy format.  MS had to adopt it with their software and hardware as, at that point, its adoption was above and beyond WMA.  MS had to support AAC with their Zune and eventual Windows Phone if they wanted to give people the ability to switch to their products after owning an iDevice.

On a side note, you don't have to transcode your WMA files to mp3.  You can transcode them to AAC, AIFF, PCM WAV, or Apple lossless too.  Whatever format is selected as your importing setting in iTunes will be the format (and bitrate) that the WMA files are converted to.

why don't apple devices play unprotected wma files natively?

Reply #8 –
The original iPod does in fact play WMA files if you load Rockbox. The format is much more simple then mp3 so almost anything can play it.

why don't apple devices play unprotected wma files natively?

Reply #9 –
Quote from: bigidiot on
So the answer is that although Apple can easily afford it, they don't want to allow foreigners into their ecosystem. Maybe the more interesting  question should instead be: why has it been so easy for android devices and small players like Sansa to support both m4a and wma?
Quite plainly, it’s not a matter of ease. It’s a matter of will. Apple want to have propriety over things. Thus, they’re not willing to concede to Microsoft that WMA is worth supporting (which one could argue it isn’t!). If they wanted to do it, it would be trivial on a technical level.

why don't apple devices play unprotected wma files natively?

Reply #10 –
Quote from: KozmoNaut on
The simple answer is that WMA is not part of Apple's own software ecosystem. They sell music in AAC format, which is why their player primarily supports this format. They only support MP3 because it is by far the most widespread format for digital music distribution. I bet Apple would prefer not to support it, since it doesn't have any DRM provisions built in, but leaving it out would cripple their products in the market.

There are some inaccuracies in your theory. Apple has supported MP3 on its devices from day one. AAC support wasn't added until years later. The reason is simple, they didn't want to create their own format, they're a hardware company that wanted to create the most popular music player. MP3 was the most popular lossy format at the time, they'd be mad not to support it. DRM has nothing to do with it. AAC doesn't support DRM either so they had to build their own DRM layer around it (which they abandoned some time later). Apple could just as easily have built a DRM layer around MP3. Their music store came years after the first iPod and when they had the freedom to choose a format they decided to opt for a more modern format than MP3.

Why not WMA? It will simply be a question of complexity. Why take out an additional license for a proprietary format (especially when open formats were readily available) and develop a decoder, with its support and maintainence efforts, taking up extra space on a mobile device with limited storage space and computational power, for a format that never really caught on?

Why did other manufacturers support WMA? Because they are coming from a position of relative weakness compared to dominent player. They need to take away any reason, however small, that might prevent people from considering their product. Supporting every format and the kitchen sinks makes business sense while Apple can easily ignore more niche formats.
Every night with my star friends / We eat caviar and drink champagne
Sniffing in the VIP area / We talk about Frank Sinatra
Do you know Frank Sinatra? / He's dead

why don't apple devices play unprotected wma files natively?

Reply #11 –
Quote from: Maurits on
Quote from: KozmoNaut on
The simple answer is that WMA is not part of Apple's own software ecosystem. They sell music in AAC format, which is why their player primarily supports this format. They only support MP3 because it is by far the most widespread format for digital music distribution. I bet Apple would prefer not to support it, since it doesn't have any DRM provisions built in, but leaving it out would cripple their products in the market.


There are some inaccuracies in your theory. Apple has supported MP3 on its devices from day one. AAC support wasn't added until years later. The reason is simple, they didn't want to create their own codec, they're a hardware company that wanted to create the most popular music player. MP3 was the most popular lossy format at the time, they'd be mad not to support it. DRM has nothing to do with it. AAC doesn't support DRM either so they had to build their own DRM layer around it (which they abandoned some time later). Apple could just as easily have built a DRM layer around MP3. Their music store came years after the first iPod and when they had the freedom to choose a format they decided to opt for a more modern format than MP3.


The only really inaccurate thing is that they picked AAC because the compression was slightly better and the patent licensing massively cheaper for them.  Their encrypted container format itself was sufficiently proprietary for their needs, so they could have wrapped any format at all in it if they really wanted, but they chose AAC because it was incredibly cheap to license and quite good.  Everything else hes saying is essentially correct. 

why don't apple devices play unprotected wma files natively?

Reply #12 –
Quote from: lvqcl on
Quote from: bigidiot on
I personally have no problem with Apple's codecs. I rip almost everything from flacs to m4a.


It sounds like m4a (I think you mean AAC?) belongs to Apple. And it's not true.

m4a and AAC are not quite the same thing.  The audio inside is the same, but AAC audio packets can be wrapped in an MPEG-4 container in which case it is generally given a .m4a file extension.  MPEG-wrapped files are also sometimes called .mp4 but this is not recommended for files containing only AAC audio (or is it m4a that isn't part of the standard?).  Raw AAC streams usually have a .aac file extension.

I suspect there are more wrapped files out there than raw, but most people (and more importantly lazy companies!) that just call them AAC anyway.  Raw AAC cannot contain any metadata, whereas in an MPEG-4 container it can have all sorts of goodies like tags and and cover art.

MPEG-4 containers can also be used for other audio formats such as ALAC (also commonly in .m4a files!).  With DRM they are often called.m4p, which is what iTunes used to sell.  iTunes plus without DRM uses the m4a extension.  Wikipedia also lists m4b for MPEG-4 containing audiobooks or podcasts and m4r for iPhone ringtones but I'm not familiar with either of these.

why don't apple devices play unprotected wma files natively?

Reply #13 –
Quote from: saratoga on
The original iPod does in fact play WMA files if you load Rockbox. The format is much more simple then mp3 so almost anything can play it.


I was talking more in the sense of Apple's firmware.  The hardware was there to fully playback WMA files but Apple's firmware (and now iOS software) locked it out.  Of course, loading Rockbox onto an iPod will almost exponentially increase the formats it works with compared to the default firmware.  Honestly though, after all these years, I'm surprised that WMA files are still floating around.  I thought it was the "bee's knees" back in 2000-2002 but quickly moved to Lame (and thus, mp3) in 2003 after I purchased my first iPod.

Quote from: lithopsian on
MPEG-wrapped files are also sometimes called .mp4 but this is not recommended for files containing only AAC audio (or is it m4a that isn't part of the standard?).  Raw AAC streams usually have a .aac file extension.


I think you're right in that, initially, the m4a extension wasn't part of the standard.  That was something implemented by Apple, along with m4v, to differentiate between audio and video files in an mpeg-4 container.  It might just be a matter of naming or something deeper, I'm not sure.  I do know that initial AAC encoders would pump out mp4 files or .aac files, even earlier ones relied on the mpeg-2 container.  The mpeg-4 container, and m4a extension, has pretty much become the standard for AAC encoding.  The software I rely on for video encoding has even used m4v as the default for mpeg-4 4 AVC (h.264) videos for the past 5 years.

why don't apple devices play unprotected wma files natively?

Reply #14 –
And, why can't I run Apple Garage Band on my Windows computer?  And why can't  get McDonalds secret sauce on my Burger King Cheeseburger?   

Quote
Selfishness, irresponsibility and greed, which explains most decisions made by overly affluent people.
Ya' really think these "sins" are exclusive to "overly affluent" people?      The Christian belief is ,"We are ALL sinners and fall short of the Glory of God."    I don't know, but I think the "seven deadly sins" are supposed to be "deadly" to the sinner...

The statistics are that wealthy people tend to give a higher percentage of their wealth to charity than anybody else.  (At least that's true in America.)    Bill Gates' kids are still going to be "filthy rich", but when he dies most of it is going to charity (and he's given away a lot already). 

Rockefeller was a ruthless bussinessman, hated and known to be greedy.      He killed-off most of  the competition and monoplilized the industry (using some immoral or at least "questionable" tactics).    And... the availabilty & quality of oil products went up and the price went down, and consumers benefited.    And after he died, it was discovered how much he had been seceretly giving away. 

So....  I don't care and I don't know if McDonalds is run by generous people and Burger King is run by greedy people.... I just want hamburger...    If generous McDonalds cuts the price of a hamburger in half, they will soon be out of business.  If greedy Burger King doubles the price, they will soon be out of business.  What's "in their heart" doesn't affect me.


...End of rant! 

why don't apple devices play unprotected wma files natively?

Reply #15 –
Why did Apple create 'airprint', 'airplay' and whatever else when SMB has been the standard for three decades? Why do they force headphone makers to make TWO VERSIONS of the same smartphone headset, one for iphone, one for EVERY OTHER cellular phone ever? This is how they fleece their sheep. They 'create' ideas and give them new stupid names and say 'Hey! Look what we invented!" Its bothersome and every time somebody goes on about how great they are and how 'innovative' they are I just feel nauseated. They never supported WMA because they would rather fool you into thinking they 'invented' AAC...and judging by some posts here it worked...

why don't apple devices play unprotected wma files natively?

Reply #16 –
Quote from: DVDdoug on
Quote
Selfishness, irresponsibility and greed, which explains most decisions made by overly affluent people.
Ya' really think these "sins" are exclusive to "overly affluent" people?     
Nope, not exclusively, but these "overly affluent" are the people making these decisions and those are their motivations, as I see it.

Quote from: DVDdoug on
The Christian belief is ,"We are ALL sinners and fall short of the Glory of God."    I don't know, but I think the "seven deadly sins" are supposed to be "deadly" to the sinner...
Actually, as I understand it, sins are deadly to the soul, not the body.

Quote from: DVDdoug on
The statistics are that wealthy people tend to give a higher percentage of their wealth to charity than anybody else.  (At least that's true in America.)    Bill Gates' kids are still going to be "filthy rich", but when he dies most of it is going to charity (and he's given away a lot already).
So if I steal something and give a part to charity, it's ok?

Quote from: DVDdoug on
Rockefeller was a ruthless bussinessman, hated and known to be greedy.      He killed-off most of  the competition and monoplilized the industry (using some immoral or at least "questionable" tactics).    And... the availabilty & quality of oil products went up and the price went down, and consumers benefited.    And after he died, it was discovered how much he had been seceretly giving away.
and how much damage did he do, how many lives destroyed? As well, if these overly affluent people are such saints, why act like arrogant, greedy, irresponsible and selfish people. No, I don't buy the great philanthropist con. If the overly affluent were generous people, they pay fair wages to their employees, especially those at the bottom. Think sweatshops, prison labor, etc...

Quote from: DVDdoug on
So....  I don't care and I don't know if McDonalds is run by generous people and Burger King is run by greedy people.... I just want hamburger...    If generous McDonalds cuts the price of a hamburger in half, they will soon be out of business.  If greedy Burger King doubles the price, they will soon be out of business.  What's "in their heart" doesn't affect me.
I don't eat at either, because what's in their hearts, and products, is important, and not just to me.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?  ;~)

why don't apple devices play unprotected wma files natively?

Reply #17 –
Quote from: Mach-X on
Why did Apple create 'airprint', 'airplay' and whatever else when SMB has been the standard for three decades?


Why did Sony enforce ATRAC3 initially with their DAPs instead of adopting mp3?  Why does Google not open up their search technology to the rest of the world so that it's all open and filled with unicorns?  Why does Honda keep their transmission design hidden and only manufacture it in Japan?  Come on, Apple isn't the only company who makes proprietary technology and/or adopt something open, modify it, and release it as their own.  Nearly every single tech company has done this from Microsoft, Google, Apple, Sony, etc.

Quote from: Mach-X on
Why do they force headphone makers to make TWO VERSIONS of the same smartphone headset, one for iphone, one for EVERY OTHER cellular phone ever?


Did other smartphone makers come up with an in-line control system?  They aren't forcing manufacturers, it's up to them whether they support the standard or not.  It's no different than Android manufacturers using their setup, or using their proprietary apps and skins.  What about all those headphone manufacturers that come out with three versions of their headphones: ones that are standard, ones with a built-in microphone and basic button for Android smartphones, and ones for Apple devices?  Those Android ones have the little Android robot logo on them that certainly cost extra to use.  Why is Google so evil to come out with a standard for in-line remotes that doesn't work with every single device across the board?

Quite honestly, I'm tired of people ragging on Apple due to their success.  They are an innovative company but that doesn't mean that they have to invent every single technological aspect that they implement.  It's not always about the invention of the technology but rather how it's used.  Does Android implement a wireless streaming standard across all it's devices, including TV accessories?  Nope.  The different hardware partners can choose to incorporate DNLA or go with something else.  Does Microsoft offer something similar with their mobile market?  Nope, they are relying on 3rd parties to do this.  Who cares if Apple is successful with what they do?  We can trace everything, absolutely everything, in the technology world as either being copied or heavily influenced by a different company.  Microsoft wasn't the first to push a GUI (with a mouse and keyboard) into the PC world, neither was Apple.  That doesn't mean they can't be successful.  Apple wasn't the first to release an AAC encoder or push for the adoption of something other than mp3.  That doesn't mean that their success can be ignored or crapped on.

why don't apple devices play unprotected wma files natively?

Reply #18 –
Quote from: kornchild2002 on
Quote from: saratoga on
The original iPod does in fact play WMA files if you load Rockbox. The format is much more simple then mp3 so almost anything can play it.


I was talking more in the sense of Apple's firmware.  The hardware was there to fully playback WMA files but Apple's firmware (and now iOS software) locked it out.  Of course, loading Rockbox onto an iPod will almost exponentially increase the formats it works with compared to the default firmware.  Honestly though, after all these years, I'm surprised that WMA files are still floating around.  I thought it was the "bee's knees" back in 2000-2002 but quickly moved to Lame (and thus, mp3) in 2003 after I purchased my first iPod.


The Rhapsody to-go service still uses DRM-protected 160kbps WMA files.    It's been the same format for at least a decade.

why don't apple devices play unprotected wma files natively?

Reply #19 –
Quote from: kornchild2002 on
That doesn't mean that their success can be ignored or crapped on.

With all due respect, if Apple still built innovative, quality hardware, or software, based on open standards, in local unionized shops, using responsible materials and processes, I'd wholeheartedly be toasting their success, and I'd be happily buying their products. Sadly, I tend not to buy Macs or use iTunes, because of I perceive a dismal lack of integrity on their part.

They're no better, or worse, than any other company that sells overpriced, over-hyped stuff to choice limited consumers. For some, I'm sure Apple is ok, just not for me.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?  ;~)

why don't apple devices play unprotected wma files natively?

Reply #20 –
Quote from: 2tec on
Quote from: kornchild2002 on
That doesn't mean that their success can be ignored or crapped on.

With all due respect, if Apple still built innovative, quality hardware, or software, based on open standards, in local unionized shops, using responsible materials and processes, I'd wholeheartedly be toasting their success, and I'd be happily buying their products. Sadly, I tend not to buy Macs or use iTunes, because of I perceive a dismal lack of integrity on their part.

They're no better, or worse, than any other company that sells overpriced, over-hyped stuff to choice limited consumers. For some, I'm sure Apple is ok, just not for me.


I was done with Apple after my 4th gen iPod, which froze constantly.  I figured if I'm going to have a portable player that keeps freezing, I might as well pay a lot less for it.  I think I spent less on my next 5 players than I did on that Apple junk.

why don't apple devices play unprotected wma files natively?

Reply #21 –
Quote from: Mach-X on
...This is how they fleece their sheep. They 'create' ideas and give them new stupid names and say 'Hey! Look what we invented!" Its bothersome and every time somebody goes on about how great they are and how 'innovative' they are I just feel nauseated. They never supported WMA because they would rather fool you into thinking they 'invented' AAC...and judging by some posts here it worked...


Conversely I still get nauseated reading the same tired crap from fanatical tech-zealots on the 'net in which they constantly nerd-rage and refer to those who make different (completely inconsequential) product choices as "sheep."

You don't know everyone who buys a particular brand of phone or mp3 player any more than you know what you're talking about when you make utterly nonsensical statements like your last sentence.
The Loudness War is over. Now it's a hopeless occupation.

why don't apple devices play unprotected wma files natively?

Reply #22 –
I just wanted to offer a few final thoughts -- thanks for your contributions!

1. I think WMP ripped by default to wma, and unskilled users typically did it this way. Most people here would have found a third party tool, but the average user might not be so motivated. 
2. I have just spent 24 hours trancoding wma to m4a for a music collection that wasn't even that big to begin with. (As said, my neighbor's  laptop is 32 bit Vista -- which should give you a sense of how old it is).
3. Another issue: Apparently itunes doesn't have a "watch" folder but you must add folders manually. This seems to virtually guarantee that there will be dupes. (I already have a few hundred which I dread having to delete).
4. I have become really spoiled by Amarok (on Linux) and foobar2000 (on Windows).  The last time I used itunes was 3 years ago to make my ipad work. And frankly, I never used it before then.

That is why I am so amused/horrified by what itunes is.

why don't apple devices play unprotected wma files natively?

Reply #23 –
Quote from: bigidiot on
That is why I am so amused/horrified by what itunes is.

What is it?

iTunes is fine, users don't know how to handle it. For what it needs to do and it actually does it's second to no other software. It's up there with foobar2000 IMO.

why don't apple devices play unprotected wma files natively?

Reply #24 –
Quote from: fluzzknock on
The Rhapsody to-go service still uses DRM-protected 160kbps WMA files.    It's been the same format for at least a decade.


Now that's surprising, I had no idea Rhapsody was still "alive" and using WMA.  Sure enough, they even have a smartphone app for streaming.  They even purchased Napster in 2011.  That's the legal, not very successful or fun Napster though.

Quote from: 2tec on
With all due respect, if Apple still built innovative, quality hardware, or software, based on open standards, in local unionized shops, using responsible materials and processes, I'd wholeheartedly be toasting their success, and I'd be happily buying their products. Sadly, I tend not to buy Macs or use iTunes, because of I perceive a dismal lack of integrity on their part.

They're no better, or worse, than any other company that sells overpriced, over-hyped stuff to choice limited consumers. For some, I'm sure Apple is ok, just not for me.


That's fair enough.  I take issue when people scrutinize Apple and hold a different electronics company over them, often times it is Google, when those other companies are just as bad.  They rely on cheap labor in countries with questionable (that's putting it nicely) environmental practices while relying on the same rare metals that are mined in deplorable conditions.  Samsung, Google, Sony, HTC, Acer, Asus, HP, Dell, Apple, etc.  It doesn't matter.  I don't understand why people continue to point their fingers at Apple when others are just as bad.  Is it due to their success?  Probably.

I'm done with my rant now.