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Topic: can you abx aps and ape(xtreme) (Read 9917 times) previous topic - next topic
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can you abx aps and ape(xtreme)

i've just ripped my cd linkin - meteora to mp3, --alt-preset standard, and when i saw the bitrate of 08 - figure09 it was around 241kb/s and just to see how far extreme would push the bitrate i enconded the wav to extreme and the bitrate was only pushed to 255kb/s, that's 14kb/s more + the lowpass in extreme is i think 1000hz higher, main question : is there really a good hearable sound differnce between standard and extreme?

newbie koen :-)

can you abx aps and ape(xtreme)

Reply #1 –
Quote
i've just ripped my cd linkin - meteora to mp3, --alt-preset standard, and when i saw the bitrate of 08 - figure09 it was around 241kb/s and just to see how far extreme would push the bitrate i enconded the wav to extreme and the bitrate was only pushed to 255kb/s, that's 14kb/s more + the lowpass in extreme is i think 1000hz higher, main question : is there really a good hearable sound differnce between standard and extreme?

newbie koen :-)

In general, for most people there is not a noticable difference between --alt-preset standard and --alt-preset extreme.  Often if something fails to reach transparency with -aps, it does the same with --ape, so real-world gains are marginal at best from what I've observed.

If I were encoding to MP3 currently, I'd be using --alt-preset standard.

Edit:  Oh, and concerning the lowpass...  --aps uses ~19000 lowpass.  If you can ABX that, then you've got a better high-frequency limit than the vast majority of people (for most, sound disappears above about 16KHz, with some variance of course).

can you abx aps and ape(xtreme)

Reply #3 –
I know I can't.

Try the experiment the other way:

encode two files and compare them:
1. --aps and then apply mp3gain
2. --scale 0.5 --aps and then apply mp3gain

I bet it will shave off at least 15 kbps and still give you a nice mp3 in --aps quality  For me it's more interesting to try to lower the bitrate and keep the same quality (i.e. transparent for me)... not much use the other way around, right?


Btw, schytluisje, I think I've seen someone else here on HA using the same avatar as you do. Have you seen it too? http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showuser=389

can you abx aps and ape(xtreme)

Reply #4 –
thanks for the replies and ErikS i haven't seen it before, but now i have :-)

greetz

can you abx aps and ape(xtreme)

Reply #5 –
Quote
Ask Guruboolez!

I am still wondering if he is a human...

Please, stop, it's not funny at all to see my nickname at each request on sound quality. There are much better hearing than mine in this board.

can you abx aps and ape(xtreme)

Reply #7 –
I know
But I read too much joke these days (cf. 160 listening test project) for smiling again. I don't like myth about audioencoding, especially when I'm, myself, the object of the mythologisation, without serious reason.

can you abx aps and ape(xtreme)

Reply #8 –
I'm not sure if this answers your original question, but there certainly are samples that can be ABX'ed by most people with aps, ape(xtreme) and api.

One such example is the Fatboy sample. It clearly has different tones even with api. You might want to check it out for yourself.

ScorLibran's post hits the mark. In many cases there is little or no difference, because if something does trip up aps, it often has problems in ape and api, although some artifacts are reduced as you go to the higher modes.

can you abx aps and ape(xtreme)

Reply #9 –
so den, i think you wanna say where aps failes generally api failes also, so that has put me to another question, will mp3 last a long-time? there are lots of new lossy codec's (bv aac,ogg, mpc ), i haven't tried aac and ogg, but i also rip my music for archive reason to mpc quality 8 (incase i want to write them an a audio cd, not every cd player plays mp3 eg car radio). I'm kinda scared also, i bought an mp3 portable player and an mp3 boombox which cost me alot of money and personnaly the music (mp3 aps) sounds pretty good on them, haven't heard any artifacts etcc... main question here will mp3 last a long time (+ for the people who have spend a lot of money on mp3 players etc, - for the people who can hear artifacts) or will it disapear within a year or two (- for the people who ..money...; + for the people who can hear artifacts)

sorry for some typ fault's , native language is dutch)

greetz

can you abx aps and ape(xtreme)

Reply #10 –
I don't think mp3 will dissapear in a couple of years at all.

As to the subject, in my experience --ape does not usually make a difference compared to --aps, but --api sometimes does. But only on problem samples, you know.

can you abx aps and ape(xtreme)

Reply #11 –
Quote
so den, i think you wanna say where aps failes generally api failes also, so that has put me to another question, will mp3 last a long-time? there are lots of new lossy codec's (bv aac,ogg, mpc ), i haven't tried aac and ogg, but i also rip my music for archive reason to mpc quality 8 (incase i want to write them an a audio cd, not every cd player plays mp3 eg car radio). I'm kinda scared also, i bought an mp3 portable player and an mp3 boombox which cost me alot of money and personnaly the music (mp3 aps) sounds pretty good on them, haven't heard any artifacts etcc... main question here will mp3 last a long time (+ for the people who have spend a lot of money on mp3 players etc, - for the people who can hear artifacts) or will it disapear within a year or two (- for the people who ..money...; + for the people who can hear artifacts)

sorry for some typ fault's , native language is dutch)

greetz

If I may offer an answer though the question wasn't directed to me (but I'm sure den will answer as well)...

I firmly believe that MP3 will indeed be around for a long time to come.  When I joined HA a few months ago, I was under the impression that one of these new lossy codecs was going to be the "MP3 successor"...as if there could only be one codec-of-choice for the world.

I'm still new around here, and I'm no expert on this matter, but I am getting a different impression the more I learn.  Now I tend to think that the direction is going to be "variety" rather than "one successor".  For example, there are digital audio players for cars currently compatible with five different formats (MP3, WAV, WMA, FLAC and Ogg Vorbis).  And gradually more hardware players are starting to appear that can play more than just the "old standard" of one or two formats (MP3, or MP3 + WMA).  The Rio Karma (hopefully shipping soon, if not already) will play MP3, WMA, FLAC and Ogg Vorbis.  Though it's still too soon to be sure, I sense that the new trend will be for hardware players to be compatible with as many codecs as can be feasibly supported.  Maybe MPC will start seeing support in a similar fashion.  AAC has the iPod, and might possibly be ported to other hardware platforms as well.

So, even as hardware becomes Vorbis-friendly and FLAC-friendly, MP3 won't be going away in the foreseeable future.  A big reason for that is how embedded MP3 is.  People en masse will not tolerate all-of-the-sudden having to re-encode their collections because a super-popular format passed to the void in favor of something more "fad".  Microsoft may prefer dominating the world with WMA, but it's simply not going to happen, IMO.  I foresee a big selling point for hardware players instead  becoming "encode in whatever format you like...our player will still play it."  The technology to do this is gradually taking shape with each format that gets new hardware support.

can you abx aps and ape(xtreme)

Reply #12 –
I discovered my first --aps artifacts with harpsichord music (not only pre-echo, but kind of distorsion/watering sound). With --extreme preset, the distorsion was reduced (sometimes away).

can you abx aps and ape(xtreme)

Reply #13 –
That's interesting, I guess my limited experience was more about other kind of artifacts. In your experience, did --api further improve things over --ape?

can you abx aps and ape(xtreme)

Reply #14 –
Not sure anymore. I left mp3 long time ago... I would say "yes", but with care.

can you abx aps and ape(xtreme)

Reply #15 –
Guruboolez -- just out of interest, what is your preferred format?

can you abx aps and ape(xtreme)

Reply #16 –
Quote
so den, i think you wanna say where aps failes generally api failes also, so that has put me to another question, will mp3 last a long-time? there are lots of new lossy codec's (bv aac,ogg, mpc ), i haven't tried aac and ogg, but i also rip my music for archive reason to mpc quality 8 (incase i want to write them an a audio cd, not every cd player plays mp3 eg car radio). I'm kinda scared also, i bought an mp3 portable player and an mp3 boombox which cost me alot of money and personnaly the music (mp3 aps) sounds pretty good on them, haven't heard any artifacts etcc... main question here will mp3 last a long time (+ for the people who have spend a lot of money on mp3 players etc, - for the people who can hear artifacts) or will it disapear within a year or two (- for the people who ..money...; + for the people who can hear artifacts)


Others have already answered your question very well. I agree that mp3 will be around for a long time (many years) to come, as it has a massive user base, and there is so much hardware out there with mp3 support. To pick a single successor for mp3 is very difficult, but there are at least a couple of lossy formats (aac and vorbis) and lossless formats (FLAC) that are gathering hardware support, and I'm sure we will hear more about them in the future. I used to have trouble getting enthusiastic about using a lossless format, but now that storage is getting cheaper and cheaper, I'm starting to think that lossless is the way to go for your own archiving of music, and then use whatever lossy format is required for your portable listening needs. (ie in your case, mp3.) 

can you abx aps and ape(xtreme)

Reply #17 –
Quote
is there really a good hearable sound differnce between standard and extreme?

Sure...  I just ABXed aps from ape with fatboy, on the basis that the extreme file sounded clearly worse than the standard file (at least on the bit I was listening to).  Check it out, it's a killer...

can you abx aps and ape(xtreme)

Reply #18 –
Quote
Sure...  I just ABXed aps from ape with fatboy, on the basis that the extreme file sounded clearly worse than the standard file (at least on the bit I was listening to).  Check it out, it's a killer...

ABX setup and results? Dubious claims that run counter to the common knowledge of HA are scrutinised even more carefully...

can you abx aps and ape(xtreme)

Reply #19 –
winabx, 13/14 (i made myself listen properly after first mistake  )

of course it could be placebo.  because i use standard (sometimes) i may be convincing myself that the worse one actually sounds better, but as far as i can tell, standard really does sound obviously better.  it's no big deal, i'm sure it would be the other way around for many other samples.

i listen between 3.2 and 4.2 seconds if you're interested, and i'm not concentrating on the scrapey snaredrum-like noises in the background, just the voice.  extreme is clearly much more distorted when the voice goes from low to high, or you could say that the background artifact leaks on to the voice, which doesn't happen as badly with standard.

can you abx aps and ape(xtreme)

Reply #20 –
Quote
Quote
Sure...  I just ABXed aps from ape with fatboy, on the basis that the extreme file sounded clearly worse than the standard file (at least on the bit I was listening to).  Check it out, it's a killer...

ABX setup and results? Dubious claims that run counter to the common knowledge of HA are scrutinised even more carefully...

Actually that particular claim doesn't really oppose HA common knowledge, AFAIK.  Fatboy and a few other samples are known to be problems for some --alt-presets.

Every codec has it's "problem samples"...remember that even MPC -q 10 has been ABXed with at least one.

Others may disgree with me, but if he says fatboy "breaks" --alt-preset standard, it doesn't make me flinch, personally.  If he said that several different samples in a row broke --alt-preset insane, for instance, then that would be different, as that's not a commonly accepted fact without proof provided at the time of the claim.

Not saying ABX results shouldn't be posted...only that that particular sample being ABXable with LAME --alt-presets isn't that hot of a news item since that sample breaks quite a few encoder settings.  When I'm using ABX to test for encoding transparency (to my ears), among test samples I pull out Fatboy first.  Norman Cook created a bit of a monster!

can you abx aps and ape(xtreme)

Reply #21 –
Generally, it takes a killer sample to make an audible difference between -aps and -ape. Supposedly, fatboy requires the -Z switch to sound decent for -aps and -ape.

can you abx aps and ape(xtreme)

Reply #22 –
I think you don't get the point: Listen says that AP-standard sounds better than AP-extreme with this particular sample!

can you abx aps and ape(xtreme)

Reply #23 –
Quote
Supposedly, fatboy requires the -Z switch to sound decent for -aps and -ape.

Assuming we're talking about the current situation reflected by the latest HA compiles, this information is both incorrect and outdated.

Besides that, let's not start with the -Z stuff again, unless someone else feels like explaining it for the nth time...

can you abx aps and ape(xtreme)

Reply #24 –
Hmm... I just ABXed standard from extreme on castanets also.  Again, using the method 'if it sounds bad click on extreme'.  I don't listen to the castanets, just the first guitar chord.  For my ears, I would liken the quality drop from aps->ape, in this particular instance, almost to the loss from wav->aps... not as drastic in terms of the loss of colour, but if you told me that the aps one was the original, then the ape file would be similarly easy to ABX for this sample.

Does ape only raise the low-pass, or is there something else (different from aps) eating into the bandwidth also?

Interesting stuff, this is.

Yes this is 3.90.3, just to clarify...