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Topic: Vinyl to Digital. (Read 39796 times) previous topic - next topic
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Vinyl to Digital.

First post. 

My dad has a massive vinyl collection. Thousands and thousands of records. and quite a few that are rare. Most of which are in incredible condition.
I'd like to back up some of the more rare recordings (not available on CDs or other media), and some of the ones that I enjoy.
This might sound like a weird situation. I consider myself an audiophile. Because my dad has an incredible Hi-Fi, and when I pretty much only like to listen to recordings (CD, Vinyl, anything) on that, or my friend's dad's setup, which is even more so impressive, as is his record collection.
But, while these guys have amazing Hi-Fi setups, niether know about converting to digital with the maximum of quality. They both have basically completely analog setups. Tube amplified recivers and such.
And while I consider myself an audiophile, its only because I can hear the difference and really enjoy the fidelity. But I don't know very much about audio.

So. what do I need to get started with converting? I want good quality. But since this is comming out of my own pocket I can't spend the world. but a fair amount.
I need my own turntable. I don't know what type to get. Most of the ones I look at are for DJs and such, not high end audio.
I need a high quality phono preamp. Also know nothing about these.
A nice Analog to Digital converter. Maybe M-Audio?
And some way to get that digital stream onto my harddrive.

Looking forward to the help. Thanks in advance!

Vinyl to Digital.

Reply #1 –
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First post. 

Visit here more and post more

Quote
This might sound like a weird situation. I consider myself an audiophile. Because my dad has an incredible Hi-Fi, and when I pretty much only like to listen to recordings (CD, Vinyl, anything) on that, or my friend's dad's setup, which is even more so impressive, as is his record collection.

I like music and quest for sound quality, but I didn't like to call myself "audiophile", because I have an image those audiophile represent stubborn and die-hard for classics ONLY. IMO all kind of music should be experienced.

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And while I consider myself an audiophile, its only because I can hear the difference and really enjoy the fidelity. But I don't know very much about audio.

Should learn more, it's fun to learn

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So. what do I need to get started with converting? I want good quality. But since this is comming out of my own pocket I can't spend the world. but a fair amount.

Simple question. How much you can pay? Or how much you expected to pay?

Quote
I need my own turntable. I don't know what type to get. Most of the ones I look at are for DJs and such, not high end audio.
I need a high quality phono preamp. Also know nothing about these.
A nice Analog to Digital converter. Maybe M-Audio?
And some way to get that digital stream onto my harddrive.

I got the same situation here, my dad leave me a lot of LPs. I don't have high wages, much lower pay in my city HongKong than in US. So I save every dollar for:

1)  Technics SL-1200 MK5 DJ Turntable
2) DIY tube pre-amp using GE5670
3) DIY tube power-amp using Emission Lab 300B
4) I make a simple phono according to a circuit by RJM (Richard Murdey), credit goes to him! Very Simple Phono Stage, remember to change the OpAmp to OPA2604 and it works great!
5) Go for a pair of good audio cable (I use a pair of weaved silver thread)
6)  I'm asking my friend to borrow his M-Audio Firewire 500 Analog-to-Digital converter

and you can start working!

If you found external AD converter too expensive, simply buy a M-Audio Revolution 7.1 or 5.1 and you can start converting! 

I'm sure some nice guys here must have a better way, I'd like to learn from them.
Hong Kong - International Joke Center (after 1997-06-30)

Vinyl to Digital.

Reply #2 –
thanks.
isn't the technics turntable a DJ phonograph? is it suitable for Hi-Fi audio?

any other ideas on phono preamps? it might be fun to build one.

i can probably spend up to 200 bucks on a turntable. perferable 100.

Vinyl to Digital.

Reply #3 –
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i can probably spend up to 200 bucks on a turntable. perferable 100.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Tough to recommend a good table at that price.  If you can spend a little more, I'd look at this one:

[a href="http://www.audioadvisor.com/store/productdetail.asp?sku=MHMMF2]http://www.audioadvisor.com/store/productd....asp?sku=MHMMF2[/url]

Good news is that price includes a cartridge.

You may find something interesting at a better price in the used market, but a used turntable being a mechanical thing, comes with some risk.

Vinyl to Digital.

Reply #4 –
That turntable looks nice. I might go with that.

I guess I would want everything to be about the level. There are turntables that are much more than that. But, that one is basically entry level in the Hi-Fi relm.
i guess i want all my stuff like that. beyond the norm. but entry level for Hi-Fi.

Vinyl to Digital.

Reply #6 –
Silly question, but why do you need your own turntable?

Can't you use the one in your Dad's set-up? Just connect the line level output (e.g. the tape out) on the pre-amp into a decent sound card, play the vinyl, click record on the PC, and away you go.

What's more, if your Dad has a great set up and records in immaculate condition, I don't think he'll want you to go playing these records on a mediocre $200 record deck.

Cheers,
David.

Vinyl to Digital.

Reply #7 –
I use my iHP-120 to record vinyl. Works great.
"To understand me, you'll have to swallow a world." Or maybe your words.

Vinyl to Digital.

Reply #8 –
Now an interesting question is what kind of digital format to use. As many audiophiles think LPs are often superior to CDs, would it be enough to convert to CD quality 44.1 kHz 16-bit PCM? Of course if you only want to play the results as CDs. But if you're planning on using your PC for playback, how about 48 or 96 kHz sampling, 24-bit depth?

Vinyl to Digital.

Reply #9 –
Quote
thanks.
isn't the technics turntable a DJ phonograph? is it suitable for Hi-Fi audio?
i can probably spend up to 200 bucks on a turntable. perferable 100.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=292331"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I can only say, I don't have the money to buy a better one.

If you can spend more, try Roksan or even Rockport, or try a 2nd hand Linn or Goldmund ... too expensive for me.

Try the best to "fine tune" the turntable, buy a better MM cartridge, even a DJ model can have good sound.

Quote
any other ideas on phono preamps? it might be fun to build one.

I've listen to my friends tube phono, the problem is 2 stage amplification is not enough, too many stages amplify will colorize the sound, and the circuit was complex.

Try the VSPS, it may not the best but sounds good enough for me.
Hong Kong - International Joke Center (after 1997-06-30)

Vinyl to Digital.

Reply #10 –
Quote
Now an interesting question is what kind of digital format to use. As many audiophiles think LPs are often superior to CDs, would it be enough to convert to CD quality 44.1 kHz 16-bit PCM? Of course if you only want to play the results as CDs. But if you're planning on using your PC for playback, how about 48 or 96 kHz sampling, 24-bit depth?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=292424"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Please perform ABX testing on the two records before suggesting that.
I know that I know nothing. But how can I then know that ?

Vinyl to Digital.

Reply #11 –
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Please perform ABX testing on the two records before suggesting that.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=292427"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Precisionist, I'm not saying a higher sample frequency or bit depth would necessary be better, but I think anyone starting a big recording project should not take the CD quality as a given but also consider other options.

Oh boy, you really can't post anything here without being whacked with the notorious eight. 

Vinyl to Digital.

Reply #12 –
Quote
Now an interesting question is what kind of digital format to use. As many audiophiles think LPs are often superior to CDs, would it be enough to convert to CD quality 44.1 kHz 16-bit PCM? Of course if you only want to play the results as CDs. But if you're planning on using your PC for playback, how about 48 or 96 kHz sampling, 24-bit depth?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=292424"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I dare not to say LP always win, but for my own test with some friends together. Usually a properly setup LP usually beat the CD from same company.

My friend borrow me some 45 RPM Single (Wild boy, WHAM) and the CD was defeated badly (My CD Player is Enlightened Audio Design UltraDisc 2000 HDCD).

One thing I'm sure is ... the A-to-D process was casually done! I got some "Audiophile grade" CD, they sound much better. We should blame the large record companies didn't want to give us 100% quality goods but charge us 100% money.
Hong Kong - International Joke Center (after 1997-06-30)

Vinyl to Digital.

Reply #13 –
Quote
Now an interesting question is what kind of digital format to use. As many audiophiles think LPs are often superior to CDs, would it be enough to convert to CD quality 44.1 kHz 16-bit PCM? Of course if you only want to play the results as CDs. But if you're planning on using your PC for playback, how about 48 or 96 kHz sampling, 24-bit depth?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=292424"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

There is no doubt that LPs can sound fabulous, in some respects subjectively nicer than CD, and so some "audiophiles" think this must be because LPs are more accurate, and have greater resolution than CDs. They're not, and they don't.

A perfect LP pressed on heavy duty virgin vinyl played back on the finest turntable in the world can manage about 75dB of dynamic range (on a good day with a following wind). That equates to about 12.5 bits. 16 bits of word depth is more than enough.

Sampling at 44.1kHz gives you a frequency limit of 22kHz. While it is true that some LPs might contain some kind of signal above this frequency, the chances of that signal being remotely related to the programme material is highly unlikely: it's just noise. Fortunately the human ear can't actually hear it. 44.1kHz is perfectly adequate to accurately capture all the meaningful frequency range on an LP.

Vinyl to Digital.

Reply #14 –
Quote
Quote
Now an interesting question is what kind of digital format to use. As many audiophiles think LPs are often superior to CDs, would it be enough to convert to CD quality 44.1 kHz 16-bit PCM? Of course if you only want to play the results as CDs. But if you're planning on using your PC for playback, how about 48 or 96 kHz sampling, 24-bit depth?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=292424"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I dare not to say LP always win, but for my own test with some friends together. Usually a properly setup LP usually beat the CD from same company.

My friend borrow me some 45 RPM Single (Wild boy, WHAM) and the CD was defeated badly (My CD Player is Enlightened Audio Design UltraDisc 2000 HDCD).

One thing I'm sure is ... the A-to-D process was casually done! I got some "Audiophile grade" CD, they sound much better. We should blame the large record companies didn't want to give us 100% quality goods but charge us 100% money.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=292432"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Was it a blind test, or did you know which was which when listening to it?

Vinyl to Digital.

Reply #15 –
It's not as simple as that, though, is it? Any analogue to digital conversion will lose information, and surely any completely analogue system has, insofar as these terms make any sense, infinite bit depth and infinite sampling rate (although that too is a simplification, obviously)?

Vinyl to Digital.

Reply #17 –
D > A conversion.  It will never sound better than the original.  It can't.

Digital is a more accurate method for capturing and playing back sound.  But, it sounds different than analog.  Some people prefer the inaccuracies of analog.  But remember, it is distortion you are enjoying.

I am not a EE and am not conversant with Ohm's law, but I have never found anyone who could ABX cables of any type as being better than plain copper. I have high-end directional braided cable with gold-plated tips, etc., etc., etc. and they sure cannot be demonstrated as being anything but more expensive.  If you can point me to proof that high end cables do anything other than ampty your wallet quicker, do so.

I would recommed use of a cartridge with a "Shibata" stylus which is cut a little differently to play a bit deeper in the groove which will get it down and away from any previous wear.  Both Shure and Audio-Technica used to offer them.  I would assume Shure still does.  Shure is the gold standard.  There are some better, but Shure is always very good.

You have a great project ahead of you and should have a great time.

Tube amps also introduce their own brand of distortion which "sounds better."  Bob Carver shook Stereophile when he made his transistor amp sound exactly like any tube amp they brought him.  So much for the natural, inherent superiority of tube amps.  It is a myth.  Audiophiles love to foster it but cannot demonstrate it other than their own personal taste, a "Rule Eight" violation here.

Nov schmoz kapop.

Vinyl to Digital.

Reply #18 –
getting interesting.
our amps are tube amps. and yes, they are dirtier than solid state. but it has a really appealing sound. warm and organic. I don't mind solid state amps too much. For listening to records I like the tube amps. But I also play bass, and I like solid states for that, with a tube preamp. or even a solid state preamp. Either can sound great if they are well crafted.

Anyway. I would use my dad's turntable. but he wont let me mess with it. I can turn on the amp, take the record out of the sleeve, set it on the turntable, and set the needle on the record. turn up the volume and dail the eq a little. take the record off the turn table and put the record back in the sleeve and on the shelf.
Thats pretty much it.
As for what I will be playing it back on. My dad's Hi-Fi. its just that some of the rare ones that i like to listen to alot, i don't want to wear out. maybe i can just run a long wire from the turntable to the computer area of the house.....

Vinyl to Digital.

Reply #19 –
Quote
It's not as simple as that, though, is it? Any analogue to digital conversion will lose information, and surely any completely analogue system has, insofar as these terms make any sense, infinite bit depth and infinite sampling rate (although that too is a simplification, obviously)?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=292445"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

"Infinite resolution" is one of the most regular claims made by "audiophiles" who try to argue that analogue is better than digital. It's bunkum.

Let's take "infinite bit depth" first. Consider a signal at a specific point in time which when played back from an LP (or analogue tape) should deliver a voltage of 1mV. The inaccuracies of the process of making LPs (or the limitations in how small you can make the magnetic particles on tape) mean that when you actually play back that signal, you might get anywhere between 0.99mV and 1.01mV. It is *impossible* to get back *exactly* the right voltage all the time. This is basically another way of thinking about the noise floor of the medium. And the degree of inaccuracy in any real-world analogue system is *greater* than can be easily achieved with quite modest digital systems.

What about "infinite sampling rate"? Well, this implies that you can reproduce frequencies up to infinity. And again, the mechanical limitations of an analogue system prevents you from doing that. With LP, the limit is the maximum rate you can wiggle a stylus back and forth in a groove. With tape, it's limited by the particle size of the magnetic coating plus the speed you drag the tape across the playback head. And just as with bit depth, you'll find that real-world analogue systems cannot achieve the same high-end frequency response that is easily achievable in digital systems.

You might argue that the limitations of analogue are caused by its implementation rather than its principle. Well yes, but we're living in the real world here. Any analogue system you can build using precision engineering can easily be matched and surpassed by digital means through the simple expedient of increasing bit depth and/or sample rate.

Vinyl to Digital.

Reply #20 –
I'm out of my depth trying to argue vinyl vs. CD since I know next to nothing about how to compare them, so I'll take your word for all of that (but only as much as I take the word of the vinylphiles on the other side ). When I've taken my degree I'll come up with a proper opinion!

Vinyl to Digital.

Reply #21 –
For vinyl to be superior to CD's defies the reasonablity test.  Why would manufacturers back a medium of lower quality??  It would have been immediately unmasked and attacked.  Think about it.  Also, consider who and how many are saying that vinyl is superior.

When Billy Joe's "52nd Street" came out on CD AUDIO magazine raved about how superior it was over vinyl.  They devoted several pages about listening to it, on what equipment, where they did it (Danbury, CT) and so on.  Then about 10 years later a shorter article about how the vinyl was superior.  Yeah, right.

Following the logic that we took a step backward, consider how much better 78's would be, and then, wax cylinders.

I know of no scientific testing which can demonstrate the "superiority" of vinyl.  I have lots of it.  I prefer CD's.  Better bass, no surface noise, absolute silence when there is no music being played, they do not really wear out, the highs sound the same start to finish, greater dynamic range, broader sound spectrum.  Stack this up against, "vinyl sounds better."  I still have the first LP I bought in '54.  The last LP I bought is not as good as most CD's.

Early CD's were engineered poorly as the engineers had not got it right yet.  They were still using the techniques they used to "sweeten" LP's.  When they got it figured out CD's really sang.  Some still do.

Just my two cents worth.

L8R

Nov schmoz kapop.

Vinyl to Digital.

Reply #22 –
Quote
getting interesting.
our amps are tube amps. and yes, they are dirtier than solid state. but it has a really appealing sound. warm and organic. I don't mind solid state amps too much. For listening to records I like the tube amps. But I also play bass, and I like solid states for that, with a tube preamp. or even a solid state preamp. Either can sound great if they are well crafted.

I've tuned my tube amp sounds like solid state. I don't want the sound too colorized "warm", it's not Hi-Fidelity.

Quote
Anyway. I would use my dad's turntable. but he wont let me mess with it. I can turn on the amp, take the record out of the sleeve, set it on the turntable, and set the needle on the record. turn up the volume and dail the eq a little. take the record off the turn table and put the record back in the sleeve and on the shelf.
Thats pretty much it.

Many years ago my dad did the same thing, he won't let me touch. Now I'm sure at that time I'm not READY for LP because you have to train yourself, mind and body accurate and stable, a little careless action will scratch the LP or damage the fragile needle.

Quote
As for what I will be playing it back on. My dad's Hi-Fi. its just that some of the rare ones that i like to listen to alot, i don't want to wear out. maybe i can just run a long wire from the turntable to the computer area of the house.....
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=292456"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The long wire will be the main factor of distortion, especially in US or some countries have a large house ... Wow! Can't imagine how much signal attenuation from 2nd floor to basement!
Hong Kong - International Joke Center (after 1997-06-30)

Vinyl to Digital.

Reply #23 –
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Was it a blind test, or did you know which was which when listening to it?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=292443"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Sorry it's not a blind test, and it's not finished yet. I'll keep on recording the LP to WAV and compare to a ripped CD's WAV.

I know we should be "scientific" and "reasonable with evidence", but the impression between CD and LP almost the same experience compare to 11 years ago, the first time I heard the sound of a CD called "Michael Jackson - BAD" .

I'm sure 44.1KHz and the CDDA format is NOT a good format. The designer intentionally left out a lot of "fidelity" behind.

Surely a blind test will be in my schedule.
Hong Kong - International Joke Center (after 1997-06-30)

Vinyl to Digital.

Reply #24 –
Quote
Sampling at 44.1kHz gives you a frequency limit of 22kHz. While it is true that some LPs might contain some kind of signal above this frequency, the chances of that signal being remotely related to the programme material is highly unlikely: it's just noise.


You can get HF stuff onto LP and back again though - not particularly accurately, but one of the quadraphonic systems that relied on a high frequency carrier showed that very high frequencies could be recorded and replayed - though not always that successfully.

That said, I agree from practical experience that most of what's up there is harmonic distortion and noise, and should be inaudible - but for a given audio system (which will add it's own distortion, sometimes bringing HF content back into the audible range), you can't say for certain that cutting the high frequencies will be inaudible.

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Fortunately the human ear can't actually hear it. 44.1kHz is perfectly adequate to accurately capture all the meaningful frequency range on an LP.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=292436"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


If I were an audio archivist (rather than just a record collector) and I had to copy LPs to preserve them digitally for future generations (hypothetically) I wouldn't limit the recording to CD quality. If there's very little information above 20kHz, then lossless packing will reduce the data rate dramatically, and it can never hurt to make a beter recording than you might need - whereas it will certainly hurt if you make a worse recording than you need.


It's probably worth asking you Clive: What do you think of the idea that (current or future) declicking and denoising (and de-anything-else) algorithms may work better with high sample rates, so the "click" is even more clear and obvious?

Cheers,
David.