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Topic: E-MU, Creative & X-Fi (Read 27831 times) previous topic - next topic
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E-MU, Creative & X-Fi

Reply #26 –
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1. Creative makes excellent hardware (and, believe it or not, the X-Fi is a significant improvement over the Audigy/ Audigy 2). They have a number of really good engineers, many of whom came through acquisitions, working in Scotts Valley, CA. (These guys develop the audio processors for both Creative and E-Mu brands, btw).

2. Creative makes terrible software and drivers (Buggy, bloated, with butt-ugly and all but unusable interfaces).[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=320761"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Compare the kX drivers versus the Creative ones. The soundcard is indeed not the problem, though it has other, PCI bus related issues.

E-MU, Creative & X-Fi

Reply #27 –
Quote
Quote
1. Creative makes excellent hardware (and, believe it or not, the X-Fi is a significant improvement over the Audigy/ Audigy 2). They have a number of really good engineers, many of whom came through acquisitions, working in Scotts Valley, CA. (These guys develop the audio processors for both Creative and E-Mu brands, btw).

2. Creative makes terrible software and drivers (Buggy, bloated, with butt-ugly and all but unusable interfaces).[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=320761"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Compare the kX drivers versus the Creative ones. The soundcard is indeed not the problem, though it has other, PCI bus related issues.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=320880"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Absolutely 

Plus nowadays, many hardware glitches can be worked around with carefully made software
Surely, PCI issues are another matter -- but crackling/popping is generally down to flaws in drivers.

E-MU, Creative & X-Fi

Reply #28 –
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Then, what, games revert to using MIDI to play music? And since this is more than General MIDI, the games will require this expensive SoundFont and/or DLS MIDI synthesizer with EAX 3+ for reverb effects?

Then what happens when the games start requiring this and the user doesn't have this mythical $500 sound hardware? "Sucks to be you, you can always sign off on a second or third mortgage."
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=320783"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]



What I am saying is that in 1992 there were already soundcards that played MIDI in hardware with samples. If this had made into the mainstream, everyother soundcard would have it, much like any soundcard has a software driver to play MIDI files right now (although now it is Windows itself the one offering it, with .dls's as soundfonts).

E-MU, Creative & X-Fi

Reply #29 –
Quote
What I am saying is that in 1992 there were already soundcards that played MIDI in hardware with samples. If this had made into the mainstream, everyother soundcard would have it, much like any soundcard has a software driver to play MIDI files right now (although now it is Windows itself the one offering it, with .dls's as soundfonts).


right Wavetable Synthesis  . I definitely agree with you. Maybe somebody could possible develope an open driver similiar to WaveCube that could do something like this.  General lack of knowledge about that though drives me nuts I love yelling at people "no it's not the sequence! (MIDI file)" it's your gosh damn hardware it can only do FM Synthesis companies cheap out by using it as the only means necessary to save money. It can be done with the hardware, but it requires more on-board memory! a-ha! this is were on-board memory actually pay's off!, it's just unfortunate that Creative still dominates the market 
budding I.T professional

E-MU, Creative & X-Fi

Reply #30 –
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Maybe somebody could possible develope an open driver similiar to WaveCube that could do something like this.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

There are a whole pile of nice software wavetable synths for Linux. I can't imagine why none of these have been ported to windows.
[a href="http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/6320]Linux Softsynth Roundup[/url]

My argument against Creative is that many of their products (Live family and Audigy 1, specifically) didn't comply with the PCI spec. For example, a Live or Audigy will kill the PCI slots of a number of NForce4 motherboards (I have seen this myself with an Asus board). I image that the reason Creative cause such strong emotions is that, like many disliked companies, they sell average or mediocre products to people who  are led by inaccurate marketing into believing that they are excellent products.

E-MU, Creative & X-Fi

Reply #31 –
Thanks for all of your replies. I was travelling over to Canada and had no computer access, so I couldn't follow this thread for a few days. But I must say, it answered my questions well enough for me to wait and see, what the future (and E-MU) will bring.
Since there doesn't seem to be any particular problems with the hardware, but just with Creative's marketing, drivers and support, I think I'll go for an E-MU card in the near future (When the prices drop  ).

Regards

- Realityfreak

E-MU, Creative & X-Fi

Reply #32 –
Well e-mu drivers are pretty much crap too. I had the chance to test an 1820 for a week and my conclusion was that they're not going to see my money. The decision was solely based on drivers - bloated & buggy. A friend of mine came to the exact same conclusion independently, while another mate that actually bought the card is getting more & more frustrated with the drivers, to the point he's seriously considering to sell his 1820.

E-MU, Creative & X-Fi

Reply #33 –
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Well e-mu drivers are pretty much crap too. [...]
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=321654"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Well,... I guess a lot of people are going to be interested in doing some intense testing with the new E-MU soundcards. I won't be buying without knowing some test results... So let's hope E-MU improves their drivers in time.

- Realityfreak

E-MU, Creative & X-Fi

Reply #34 –
to first return to the part where creative is too lazy to actually release integrated driver/software packages in stead of updating, here the product list for the X-Fi

Sound Blaster X-Fi™ PCI Card
Quick Start Leaflet

Installation and Applications CD containing:
Drivers for Windows® XP
Creative Software Suite
Doom 3™ Sound Blaster EAX patch
User's Guide

do you see the doom3 patch here?  isn't it marvellous? they give a new soundcard with (hopefully?) new drivers, since it's a totally new architecture with a patch off the rack

oh well.. here's the rest of the specs:

Technical Specs

24-bit Analog-to-Digital conversion of analog inputs at 96kHz sample rate
24-bit Digital-to-Analog conversion of digital sources at 96kHz to analog 7.1 speaker output
24-bit Digital-to-Analog conversion of stereo digital sources at 192kHz to stereo output
16-bit to 24-bit recording sampling rates: 8, 11.025, 16, 22.05, 24, 32, 44.1, 48 and 96kHz
ASIO 2.0 support at 16-bit/44.1kHz, 16-bit/48kHz, 24-bit/44.1kHz 24-bit/48kHz and 24-bit/96kHz with direct monitoring
Enhanced SoundFont support at up to 24-bit resolution
Audio Performance (Rated Output @ 2Vrms)

Signal-to-Noise Ratio (20kHz Low-pass filter, A-Weighted)
Stereo Output 109dB
Front and Rear Channels 109dB
Center, Subwoofer and Side Channels 109dB
Total Harmonic Distortion + Noise at 1kHz (20kHz Low-pass filter) = 0.004%
Frequency Response (-3dB, 24-bit/96kHz input ) = <10Hz to 46kHz
Frequency Response (-3dB, 24-bit/192kHz input) = <10Hz to 88kHz (Stereo only)

btw: (from crystallizer thread article)

Quote
ASIO 2.0 is supported with < 2mSec latency. 0% CPU overhead is required to pass audio to/from the host to hardware.

E-MU, Creative & X-Fi

Reply #35 –
German computer magazine c't says this (18/2005 page 111):

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[...] 24-bit Crystalizer -  a combination of 24-bit-upsampler and dynamic expander/Exciter [...] Creative uses uses a frequency based analysis procedure, which is on the lookout for certain characteristics and amplifies the corresponding transients, for example the kick of a bass-drum or the crack of a shot. [...]

Apparently the X-Fi cards offer three modes of operation: gaming, enterteainment and music creation. At least the latter should do bit perfect output.

c't also likes the 3D technology (CMSS-3D) which they say uses a similar frequency analysis to amplify the room characteristics instead of solely relying on creating new artificial reflections.

To me that sounds like the author copied the "reviewer" (vs. the consumer) feature description from Creative.

E-MU, Creative & X-Fi

Reply #36 –
Quote
Quote
Well e-mu drivers are pretty much crap too. [...]
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=321654"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Well,... I guess a lot of people are going to be interested in doing some intense testing with the new E-MU soundcards. I won't be buying without knowing some test results... So let's hope E-MU improves their drivers in time.

- Realityfreak
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=321664"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I forgot to ask yesterday: what exactly is crappy about E-MU's drivers. It would be really interesting to know. 

Regards

- Realityfreak

E-MU, Creative & X-Fi

Reply #37 –
as i recall, a lot of issues with different configurations

E-MU, Creative & X-Fi

Reply #38 –
But why no PCI-Express cards? I want to ditch all my braindead PCI cards, or at least cut down to 3 or less to counter the IRQ problems with PCI.

E-MU, Creative & X-Fi

Reply #39 –
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But why no PCI-Express cards? I want to ditch all my braindead PCI cards, or at least cut down to 3 or less to counter the IRQ problems with PCI.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=321845"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Creative will bring PCI-Express versions of their Soundcards in the future, if I'm not mistaken. I read in a German PC-Magazine (Please don't ask me which one, I can't remember and don't have any access to it right now) that Creative has the PCI-E versions on their (internal (but maybe that changed by now)) roadmap.
As for E-MU... We don't even know what they're up to right now... (Except for the (maybe upcoming) implementation of the X-Fi chip)

- Realityfreak

E-MU, Creative & X-Fi

Reply #40 –
Here's a review of it where they also examine the Crystalizer feature a bit more: http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/multim...ative-x-fi.html

Note that they apparently tested the card from the Elite Pro bundle, which has better DACs than the three cheaper models. The price tags on these things are pretty scandalous for mass-market consumer products anyway...

And oh yeah, it gets the iXBT.com Original Design award! Just throw around with random awards and suck up to the people with the money and the review samples...

E-MU, Creative & X-Fi

Reply #41 –
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...
And oh yeah, it gets the iXBT.com Original Design award! Just throw around with random awards and suck up to the people with the money and the review samples...
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=321931"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

iXBT's editor (the author) is quite independent and doesn't write complimentary send-offs for  money or hardware. Before being so sarcastic it is necessary to know what the award means.
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iXBT.com Original Design award

Modern IT market is flooded with clones. Life-cycle of a product became shorter, so most manufacturers do not spend their time and resources on their own designs. Instead, they often follow the so called "reference design", changing the name of the product and the package appearance. That's why in order to encourage efforts of the manufacturers who create innovative products different from reference designs, the editorial team of iXBT.com institutes the Original Design award.

This award can be honored to a product with an original design, which is essentially different from the reference design. The product must be tested in the iXBT.com lab and then have a review (concerning the test results) published on the iXBT.com web site, in the iXBT.com magazine, or on the Digit-Life.com web site.

The Original Design award can be selected only once a month and must provide links to the reviews of the awarded products.

E-MU, Creative & X-Fi

Reply #42 –
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iXBT's editor (the author) is quite independent and doesn't write complimentary send-offs for  money or hardware. Before being so sarcastic it is necessary to know what the award means.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=321972"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Well , they even have a Reviewed by iXBT.com award.  What should i think of this? You can greet your fellow countryman and tell him i don't like that practice of giving out awards for unreasonable things. Everyone can see if a product has an original design or an excellent package, so those awards are purely advertizing and sucking up to the manufacturers.

E-MU, Creative & X-Fi

Reply #43 –
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[...] it's a bit of a riddle why they refuse to provide proper 44k1>48khz conversion in their audiocards.. even this latest x-fi seems to not really sport it. [...]
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=320727"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Why? What is a proper 44.1 to 48 khz conversion on hardware basis?
(I don't know to much about samplerateconversion (well, it converts a 44.1 khz samplerated audiotrack to 48 khz  ), but what I did understand is the way how the X-Fi chip solves this problem. But if that isn't the proper way, how do other manufacturers solve it?)

Regards

- Realityfreak
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=320730"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I'm sorry but boombaard has no idea what he/she is talking about.  How is what they are doing not proper conversion?  Do you have any idea how a sound card or on-board audio works.  Almost all sound cards do sample rate conversion one way or another because they have fixed rate DACs.  Whether it's a 44.1kHz or 48kHz DAC if  the sound card is going to play back digital audio at any other sample rate, it needs to convert it.  If their specs. are accurate their sample rate conversion is very proper...

E-MU, Creative & X-Fi

Reply #44 –
It's nice to know they're actually listening to reviews and the community about how atrocious the SRC issue has been.

As far as the Crystallizer goes... I think that this might be a more important innovation than people are giving Creative for. As has been discussed elsewhere on HA, to allow both well-mastered, dynamic recordings to be listenable with cars and cheap stereos, the canonical solution is to use a compressor, because the primary issue affecting those systems is ambient noise. At the very least, this would make classical music more appealing to some people. At most, this could be extended by Creative to their MP3 players and to users' CD-R mixes, or even listening to web radio. I'm surprised nobody else has thought of it before in the popular computer audio industry.

I do agree that their marketing is absolutely atrocious, but then again, it isn't like it's easy to market a multiband compressor. Can you imagine the trouble they'd have if the Crystallizer documentation would even have the word "compressor" in it? Even HA readers can't get it right half the time.

E-MU, Creative & X-Fi

Reply #45 –
Quote
Quote
Quote
[...] it's a bit of a riddle why they refuse to provide proper 44k1>48khz conversion in their audiocards.. even this latest x-fi seems to not really sport it. [...]
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=320727"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Why? What is a proper 44.1 to 48 khz conversion on hardware basis?
(I don't know to much about samplerateconversion (well, it converts a 44.1 khz samplerated audiotrack to 48 khz  ), but what I did understand is the way how the X-Fi chip solves this problem. But if that isn't the proper way, how do other manufacturers solve it?)

Regards

- Realityfreak
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=320730"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I'm sorry but boombaard has no idea what he/she is talking about.  How is what they are doing not proper conversion?  Do you have any idea how a sound card or on-board audio works.  Almost all sound cards do sample rate conversion one way or another because they have fixed rate DACs.  Whether it's a 44.1kHz or 48kHz DAC if  the sound card is going to play back digital audio at any other sample rate, it needs to convert it.  If their specs. are accurate their sample rate conversion is very proper...
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=322084"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

So other manufacturers do have to solve this problem too... good to know (and... well, I don't know much about it... that's why I've asked in the first place  . I just have to believe in what people tell me until someone comes along who can tell me more about it.)

- Realityfreak

E-MU, Creative & X-Fi

Reply #46 –
Quote
Quote
Quote
[...] it's a bit of a riddle why they refuse to provide proper 44k1>48khz conversion in their audiocards.. even this latest x-fi seems to not really sport it. [...]
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=320727"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Why? What is a proper 44.1 to 48 khz conversion on hardware basis?
(I don't know to much about samplerateconversion (well, it converts a 44.1 khz samplerated audiotrack to 48 khz  ), but what I did understand is the way how the X-Fi chip solves this problem. But if that isn't the proper way, how do other manufacturers solve it?)

Regards

- Realityfreak
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=320730"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I'm sorry but boombaard has no idea what he/she is talking about.  How is what they are doing not proper conversion?  Do you have any idea how a sound card or on-board audio works.  Almost all sound cards do sample rate conversion one way or another because they have fixed rate DACs.  Whether it's a 44.1kHz or 48kHz DAC if  the sound card is going to play back digital audio at any other sample rate, it needs to convert it.  If their specs. are accurate their sample rate conversion is very proper...
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=322084"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


i'm sorry, but i don't quite follow you..
I said it *seemed* as if the new chip was still going to be equipped with the same (crappy) 44.1>48kHz SRC, (do forgive me if i put this a bit awkwardly, english hardly is my first language) mainly because Creative *didn't* say anything about your now being able to set the master samplerate to the input samplerate of the datastream being played back.
Honestly though, I fail to see why you have to make this personal by trying to insult me, especially without really saying why or how i'm wrong.
If and/or when you see someone doesn't really understand how something works (or in this case what SRC is), yelling
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Do you have any idea how a sound card or on-board audio works
does nothing to convince me of the fact that _you_ actually *do* know what it does. It just shows you like to annoy others.
if you really want to educate someone with your superior knowledge of how something works, explain it in terms that *everyone* understands, in stead of just spouting something like
Quote
Almost all sound cards do sample rate conversion one way or another because they have fixed rate DACs

This tells us absolutely nothing about what actually happens when you input audio at a given samplerate that is different from the Master samplerate of the sound chip
Sure, i'm willing to believe an DSP has a digital to analog converter.. But what is this rate are you talking about here?

Anyway, as i just said, and as you should've been able to read by now in the X-Fi review article on digit-life, this X-Fi has the nifty feature to actually *change* the Master Samplerate of the card.

Oh well, i think i've made my case and am starting to become annoyed.. which usually makes me start repeating myself, so i'll just stop here.

E-MU, Creative & X-Fi

Reply #47 –
About resampling on the audigy, I have an audigy 2 nx. I've never heard of that characteristic of creative cards before and I'm interested in the subject.

Upon searching a bit, tomshardware site says that it will resample when using eax (don't know if he's right thou), if the site is right then the audigy won't have a problem unless you have that thing active and at least to my taste is not acceptable to play music with an underwater effect.

Here's the link to the behaviour at 44.1kHz (the review also includes 48kHz and 96kHz).
http://www.tomshardware.com/consumer/20031...reative-08.html

I'm a bit clueless as to how to interpret those graphs (or if what I think I'm interpreting is right), but it would be logic to assume the resampling issue would reflect on such tests.

E-MU, Creative & X-Fi

Reply #48 –
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I'm guessing that Emu's implementation of the X-Fi chip will be much better, just like their implementation of the Audigy2's processor.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=320607"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


The X-Fi DSP *could* be a powerful hardware solution for semi-professional musicians or home recording, but I somewhat doubt that Creative/EMU will - contrary to the e.g. UAD-1 DSP cards - make the X-Fi DSP accessible via VST so your sequencing software could make use of it ...
The name was Plex The Ripper, not Jack The Ripper

E-MU, Creative & X-Fi

Reply #49 –
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Almost all sound cards do sample rate conversion one way or another because they have fixed rate DACs.  Whether it's a 44.1kHz or 48kHz DAC if  the sound card is going to play back digital audio at any other sample rate, it needs to convert it.[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=322084"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


All Envy24-based soundcards can be slaved and synched to an incoming digital stream ... it doesn't matter whether you feed them 32000, 44100, 48000 or 88200 or 96000Hz ... they won't - contrary to some Creative cards - alter the incoming digital signal by internal resampling (in the digital domain, that is).
The name was Plex The Ripper, not Jack The Ripper