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Topic: Is there clipping? (Read 27870 times) previous topic - next topic
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Is there clipping?

I've cut some parts out of some songs on Tool's newest album, 10,000 Days. I specifically didn't mention that in the title because I didn't want to start some Tool related argument. In fact, I want the band to be completely out of it. Ideally, I'm looking for people who have never listened to Tool in their lives. You don't have to be an audiophile or have awesome equipment. Studio engineers as well as the average Joe listening on $20 headphones are encouraged to try this.

There are four short (like 15 seconds) song samples in FLAC format. You don't have to do much.

http://hushy.flaretech.net/music/tool.zip

1. Download the files and play them back.
2. Is there any audible clipping at any time in the sample? A simple yes/no works, or you can describe it.
3. Please mention what you played it through, i.e. X soundcard to Y headphone or with Z amp or whatever details you feel are relevant.

Other details (what you thought about the song, your mood, the weather, whatever) are irrelevant. Just the clipping and your listening equipment. Thanks!

Oh, and if you're wondering what this whole thing is about, well, it's to find out whether people think these samples have audible clipping or not, nothing more, nothing less

Is there clipping?

Reply #1 –
No, there is no clipping.  Not a single sample's worth.

EDIT:
Wait, I found a single that might cause clipping upon conversion just crossing zero dB by a hair.  Trust me, you won't hear it.

EDIT2:
You may want to adjust your samples as not to violate TOS #9.

Is there clipping?

Reply #2 –
oh yeah, crap, I made these for another forum and didn't realize one of them was over the limit. I'll change it in a few minutes (link will be the same).

As a matter of protocol, could you please state what you used for playback?

Is there clipping?

Reply #3 –
It's not clipping what you hear, but there's a static-like noise all through the samples.

Is there clipping?

Reply #4 –
The guitar is using some distortion fx, but don't think, that the audio files are clipping.

Is there clipping?

Reply #5 –
It's my impression that distortion is an intended artistic part of this music. Even in the absence of digital clipping (0 dBFS) the signal looks and sounds heavily compressed and limited, but that's common practice for many musical genres.
You can reduce DAC inter-sample peak distortion by lowering the digital level of the audio (by say 6 dB). If the audio still sounds distorted, it's probably not the fault of your DAC but of the audio itself.
It's impossible to say if this was intended by the musicians/engineers or not, unless by asking them
Don't forget that distortion is unavoidable in (acoustical) music recording. It just depends on what level you find acceptable or desirable. It doesn't have to be a bad thing.

Is there clipping?

Reply #6 –
nm, please delete
err... i'm not using windows any more ;)

Is there clipping?

Reply #8 –
Quote from: hushypushy on
As a matter of protocol, could you please state what you used for playback?
I have this album, it plays fine on Yamaha CD Player, through my Alpine deck and through my old SB Live! as well as my iPod (though I do use MP3Gain).

Quote from: Kees de Visser on
It's impossible to say if this was intended by the musicians/engineers or not, unless by asking them
You must not be familiar with Tool.  This is consistent with all their other CDs.  Despite the compression, their mastering is very clean.  If your DAC can handle a full-scale signal, this album will not clip.  There are very few samples that will decode beyond full-scale on this release.

Is there clipping?

Reply #9 –
Quote from: greynol on
You must not be familiar with Tool.  This is consistent with all their other CDs.  Despite the compression, their mastering is very clean.  If your DAC can handle a full-scale signal, this album will not clip.  There are very few samples that will decode beyond full-scale on this release.

I just found an interesting article about the recording. The mastering was done by Bob Ludwig, probably the most famous mastering engineer around. At least it's very likely that the best equipment has been used, by very experienced engineers and that the sound is intended like this. Apparently ultimate loudness wasn't the goal, which gives more freedom to the mastering engineer.

Is there clipping?

Reply #10 –
Quote from: Kees de Visser on
I just found an interesting article about the recording. The mastering was done by Bob Ludwig, probably the most famous mastering engineer around. At least it's very likely that the best equipment has been used, by very experienced engineers and that the sound is intended like this. Apparently ultimate loudness wasn't the goal, which gives more freedom to the mastering engineer.

Thanks for the article.

Is there clipping?

Reply #11 –
Quote from: Kees de Visser on
I just found an interesting article about the recording. The mastering was done by Bob Ludwig, probably the most famous mastering engineer around. At least it's very likely that the best equipment has been used, by very experienced engineers and that the sound is intended like this. Apparently ultimate loudness wasn't the goal, which gives more freedom to the mastering engineer.


Yeah, I've read that article a ton of times, and I started an ongoing debate about it on the Tool forum.

Joe Baressi is a very respected mixing engineer and Bob Ludwig is a very respected mastering engineer. Trouble is, 10,000 Days has much less dynamic range than any of the other albums, and many people complain of clipping, white noise, and static throughout the album.

I was going to refrain from posting where the thread I originally came from because it's a little embarrassing--I'm learning about this as I go. So perhaps my original post and thoughts are a bit off kilter? But they are developing. If anyone wants to read, here's the link. I think I probably overstepped my own boundaries of knowledge in some parts so...don't eat me up for that. I already acknowledge there may be faults (and look at me, over apologizing before you've even read one word...)

Is there clipping?

Reply #12 –
Have you looked at the track "Hooker with a Penis" in a wave editor?

Maybe it's my pressing, but it's just as compressed as anything on 10,000 Days.

Here are some ReplayGain album numbers to look from mp3s I created from my own discs:

Undertow: -3.91 dB
Aenima: -7.63 dB
Lateralus: -7.19 dB
10,000 Days: -7.74dB

Is there clipping?

Reply #13 –
Can you please explain to me what those Replaygain numbers mean? Hydrogenaudio folk quote those numbers more than Christians quote the bible, but I've searched the forums and googled and I can't get anyone to see what those numbers really mean any more than "they make all of your files an equal volume on playback." What I'm really wondering is, why is that important? Why is it like "OMG -9db, RUN FOR THE HILLS", and why are my MFSL albums so close to +/- 0?

The only thing I'm upset about with 10,000 Days is its lack of dynamic range. And the more I think about it, the more I think it was intended, so I should probably just quit my bitching.

Wings is probably the only song that really deserves any sort of range...and it doesn't get it. When the hard parts hit, there is absolutely no impact. Go to 4:10 in Wings pt 1. Then hear the heavy part come in. There is....well, no impact. You know everything is getting loud because you hear the distorted guitar and the drums and whatever but as far as effective loudness, you know what, there's not much there.

The ONLY (and I mean the one-and-only) reason I don't give up my fight for dynamic range is because of the live version of this song. Every single live version of Wings that I've listened to features a very quiet intro which bursts HARD into the loud part. On crappier miking situations (like that of a videocamera), you hear the quiet part perfectly...and then the loud part comes on suddenly and it gives the mic way more than it can handle (resulting in a blown out mess). I brought this up in the toolnavy thread--if you listen to the CD of Isis, they have zero dynamic range. The quiet clean guitar parts are pushed right up to 0dB, same as the heavy guitar with double bass. But I saw them live and that's EXACTLY the way they played the song (check out "So Did We", from Panopticon...-9.97dB replaygain, whatever that means). I have zero qualms with Isis' lack of dynamic range. It's part of their shtick.

But Tool...that is not them. Their previous albums have had quiet, subdued parts (Lateralus especially, with EBA/The Patient and others) and then the LOUD parts. 10kd is medium and loud. That's it. And I'm not much of a Wings for Marie fan because of it.

And anyway, the point of this thread was just to address the technical side of it--some people hear static or clipping, some don't. I just thought I'd take it to a place that prides itself on objective music listening. I've gotten some good feedback, I hope to get more!

Is there clipping?

Reply #14 –
When I said compressed earlier, I was really referring to limiting which in this situation is a specific application of compression.  The use of limiting based on compression allows albums to be louder without clipping.

ReplayGain is a method used to make tracks or albums have equal loudness.  The numbers indicate the amount of gain required to reach a target volume of 89dB.  The smaller the numbers are, the louder the tracks or albums are.

You'll notice that Undertow has the largest ReplayGain figure.  This is because heavy limiting wasn't used in the mastering of this title.  However,  the peak samples do approach full-scale and may even cause the output of your DAC to clip just like samples that approach full-scale from albums mastered with heavy limiting.

I happen to agree with you regarding the relative dynamics of of the track "Wings" compared to earlier work, but your post was about clipping, not about dynamics.

If you look at how the peaks are compressed in "Hooker With a Penis", you'll see that they are closer to clipping than anything in the samples of 10,000 days that you provided.

My point is that I don't buy into the argument that 10,000 days sounds more clipped than previous releases.  At least not based on the masterings  of these albums that I own.

Is there clipping?

Reply #15 –
Quote
My point is that I don't buy into the argument that 10,000 days sounds more clipped than previous releases. At least not based on the masterings of these albums that I own.


Yes, me either. That's why I made this thread, I wanted to see what people say. I don't hear the clipping or the static, but some do, and I figured I'd take it up with a group that would focus solely on the audio rather than the music.

I'm also very skeptical of the people on Amazon who reviewed the Japanese 10,000 Days (which costs ~$30) and said that it sounds much better, etc. The same master can't sound any different, even if pressed with different equipment, can it?

And yeah, sorry for the digression. I think 10,000 Days sounds fantastic except for Wings (and just because of the range). But, that is a story for another thread which I will perhaps create here (later).

But it seems no one else has any interest in listening to/discussing the supposed static/clipping?

btw, what do you use to calculate ReplayGain? I don't think it really matters, I just use winamp, select all the tracks from an album, and send to replaygain. The only reason I ask is because I just checked my Ænima and I got -7.76, which is slightly different than yours. I have the USA Volcano reissue (not the original Zoo one, it's lost).

edit: I notice you didn't include Opiate or Salival...I was thinking maybe because they had live tracks? Well I did them too and here are the results, just for kicks.

Opiate: -6.89
Salival: -9.39

Is there clipping?

Reply #16 –
The problem is (if you can call it a problem) that

1) a track with a heavily compressed dynamic range doesn't necessarily feature clipping too.

BUT

2) because some players cannot handle peaks at or near 0dB all that well, there may be clipping at output from 'intersample overs' when  playing tracks that spend lots of time near 0 dB.  This is a player problem, not a disc problem.

The last publishedd 'survey' of common CD players showed that lots of them couldn't handle 'overs'...but that was some years ago.  I wonder how today's DVD players (there are relatively few CD players left on the market) handle them?

Is there clipping?

Reply #17 –
^ Is that the cause of the static that I'm hearing?

Is there clipping?

Reply #18 –
No, from what I see (and hear) when looking at the waveforms in Audition, it's just a distorted recording, dude.  My own flac files of the 10,000 Years look and sound exactly like this too.  It sound distorted even when peaks are well below 0 dB and aren't at all flat-topped (e.g., first few seconds of Jambi).  That's what they were aiming for.  That guitar is distorted as hell..typical guitar sound for 'x-metal'  (where X = nu, prog, goth, death, and various other subgenres of metal).  It's what makes modern metal so boring to me after awhile.

Is there clipping?

Reply #19 –
That's what I hear as well, especially in the 5 minute range of Vicarious. Sounds like guitar distortion.

But I have the opposite opinion, I love extreme distortion. Adam Jones' sound on this album is fantastic, to my ears...

Is there clipping?

Reply #20 –
Quote from: hushypushy on
That's what I hear as well, especially in the 5 minute range of Vicarious. Sounds like guitar distortion.

But I have the opposite opinion, I love extreme distortion. Adam Jones' sound on this album is fantastic, to my ears...


same here... they have a very unique sound at the guitar !!

Is there clipping?

Reply #22 –
Some people like it, some don't. But even so, that's the way it sounds. Debating preferences is thoroughly useless

Is there clipping?

Reply #23 –
Quote from: hushypushy on
Some people like it, some don't. But even so, that's the way it sounds. Debating preferences is thoroughly useless


Agreed, but do you think that guitar sound is *unique* to Tool?

Is there clipping?

Reply #24 –
Quote from: krabapple on
Agreed, but do you think that guitar sound is *unique* to Tool?

Not many people use the same equipment, so yes, absolutely.

Are you familiar with Diezel?
http://www.diezelamplification.com/html/diezel.htm

IIRC, Adam Jones has also used Marshall bass amps to get his unique (if not signature) sound.

Getting off-topic, but another player that comes to mind who had a truly unique guitar tone is Ty Tabor of King's X.

The thing is, there are many ways to get distortion.  Many of which do not at all sound the same.  If you aren't an afficionado of this, you may not notice.

BTW, Distorted guitar does not mean a distorted recording.  Again, the mastering of Tool albums is very clean.  Parts that are distorted (including vocals) are intentional, trust me on this.