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Topic: Capacitor sound (Read 9364 times) previous topic - next topic
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Capacitor sound

Hi,
I stumbled upon this website and just couldn't believe what I was reading...
So, judge for yourselves:
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html

Tantalum caps are highly non-linear, ceramic too (average), electrolytics also (slightly and depends on where/how they are used), but most plastic capacitors are considered linear enough to be ignored as sources of distortion, and this guy has a full page comparing more than a dozen... in terms of how they sound!!!!!!

Capacitor sound

Reply #1 –
Quote
but it comes very close although they do need some time to open up so don’t judge them fresh out of the box


Quote
They sound a bit dull at first because they take a while to burn-in. But after a few days of normal use they deliver a wide and open sound stage. Nice and neutral, maybe a slightly warm sound.


LOL

My capacitor knowledge is not great, but the very thought of letting them open-up is just too much.

Capacitor sound

Reply #2 –


Wow.

Capacitor sound

Reply #3 –
Quote
The results of this test are meant to give you a basic idea of the sonic differences between capacitors in loudspeaker filters. For this listening test various values of capacitor between 4,7mF to 10mF were chosen.

 
of course when you use twice as big capacitor in loudspeaker filter, there will be audible difference!

Capacitor sound

Reply #4 –
Judging from a loudspeaker frequency response graph, you won't be able to tell different cap types (same capacity each, of course) apart.

Cap types do differ in their parameters, though ... some (especially metal foil types) allow faster loading/unloading, others (like electrolytic caps) are rather slowish or change their capacity over time. Differences like these might very well be audible ... but unless proven in a proper double blind test ... OK, we all know the drill
The name was Plex The Ripper, not Jack The Ripper

Capacitor sound

Reply #5 –
Anyone know of a similar page where I can found out about the sound characteristics of resistors?

Capacitor sound

Reply #6 –
Well, a loudspeaker simply turns electricity into sound, so it's plausible that different types of capacitors in the frequency filtering network influence the sound. As JeanLuc mentioned, film capacitors are better for frequency filtering and frequency response linearization than electrolytic caps, plus they will last longer. However, i'm at a loss how the guy can distinguish similar-type caps so easily? I'd love to test this as well...

Capacitor sound

Reply #7 –
There is a charmingly non-humble conclusion, too:
Quote
As with most things in this world, the more expensive the better...

and also:
Quote
... try using different caps in different places throughout the crossover; it’s just like cooking! A bit of pepper here, a pinch a salt there, etc...


Needless to say, I wouldn't accept an invitation for lunch at this guy's place, ever!

Capacitor sound

Reply #8 –
Pretty damn funny, especially when you note that he does not include any schematics and only states that the caps are used in "various places" with values between 4.7mF to 10mF - utterly meaningless.

Even if there are any legitimate sonic differences, this lack of rigor renders the point moot. One could not possibly describe a component has having a "sound" unless it is specified exactly how the component is being used, no matter how non-linear it might be.

File this one alongside the "magic solder" and $500 AC power cords...

Capacitor sound

Reply #9 –
Quote from: benski on
Anyone know of a similar page where I can found out about the sound characteristics of resistors?


I know a forum where some people claim that, but sadly they didn't make a website with resistor reviews for our amusement.

I did read that different resistor types differ in noise, does anybody know if there is any truth behind that or are all types the same except for wattage, temperature stability and tolerance?
Veni Vidi Vorbis.

Capacitor sound

Reply #10 –
Quote from: BradPDX on
One could not possibly describe a component has having a "sound" unless it is specified exactly how the component is being used, no matter how non-linear it might be.


I guess the sound a capacitator makes can be desribed as a loud "Bang!"...

Capacitor sound

Reply #11 –
I've read of cases where people replace OEM components (caps, resistors, some opAmps) with equivalent but higher quality components (better materials, manufacturing, tighter tolerances) and get moderate improvements.

But this is clearly up there with demagnetizing CD's
EAC secure | FLAC  --best -V -b 4096 | LAME 3.97 -V0 -q0 -b32

Capacitor sound

Reply #12 –
Quote from: HbG on
Quote from: benski on
Anyone know of a similar page where I can found out about the sound characteristics of resistors?


I know a forum where some people claim that, but sadly they didn't make a website with resistor reviews for our amusement.

I did read that different resistor types differ in noise, does anybody know if there is any truth behind that or are all types the same except for wattage, temperature stability and tolerance?


Hey HbG,
How are you? How's the 1060?

Well, as far as noise is concerned, there is a difference among the various materials, just as transistors have a noise level, op-amps too, and - yes, it's true - the humble 1/4W or 1/8W resistors we use to build our circuits. Metal film resistors are recommended, I think, for such things as RIAA M/M and M/C preamps.
You can read all about it, as usual, here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resistor

Noise in resistors is relevant if you are dealing with very low level signals and/or very high impedances, rarely the case in PC audio circuits (which are very noisy environments).

Anyways, the cost of a resistor is so low that it matters little financially if you choose metal film or carbon film resistors; metal film resistors are not expensive at all.

Capacitor sound

Reply #13 –
I'm fine and so is the 1060, thanks. Happy new year to you too!

I use metal film resistors as recommended in the original cmoy article. The audiophiles in question regard them as second-best.

Here's a nice article: http://www.aikenamps.com/ResistorNoise.htm
Apparently noise increases with current through the resistor, and higher value resistors introduce more noise.
Veni Vidi Vorbis.

Capacitor sound

Reply #14 –
There's an old, infamous article by Walt Jung that describes all the various audio qualities of the various capacitors. Off the top of my head, there are some real nonlinearities with some capacitor types that will cause distortion/noise in some situations. I do agree though that the whole capacitor issue has been mostly overblown, and I trust equipment manufacturers far more when they advertise their numeric specifications instead of the exotic materials used.

Capacitor sound

Reply #15 –
Quote from: Gigapod on
Hi,
I stumbled upon this website and just couldn't believe what I was reading...
So, judge for yourselves:
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html

Tantalum caps are highly non-linear, ceramic too (average), electrolytics also (slightly and depends on where/how they are used), but most plastic capacitors are considered linear enough to be ignored as sources of distortion, and this guy has a full page comparing more than a dozen... in terms of how they sound!!!!!!



Groaaaannnn.....

There's a thread here somewhere that has some other "amusing" web pages you might like, well, might like "for amusement purposes only" as the sign says over the Tarot Reader's door.

If you're new to the claims of audio "enthusiasts" you're in for a shock.  Just remember, you have company when you start thinking "oh, my dog, this is crazy".  Check this out for starters: http://www.puristaudiodesign.com/

Check out the "cryo-mag" service. Really. Or something.

I'm mildly concerned this whole thread belongs down in "off topic", but I'm not complaining, and I feel your pain, alright.

If you're not new to this stuff, well, I still feel your pain, for sure.

Quote from: benski on
Anyone know of a similar page where I can found out about the sound characteristics of resistors?


Well, no, but there is something to SOME "resistor sound".

I once had to solve someone's distortion problem where they were using a largish carbon composition resistor with a 400 volt p-p swing (from 50 to 450 volts across the resistor) across it.

Interestingly enough, if you check out the spec sheet, you will find that it does point out a voltage coefficient of resistance, and that's big enough (it was a shock to me, too) to cause distortion (2nd harmonic) about 40dB down from that peak.

Replacing it with a couple of thick-film resistors made the whole problem go away.

But, yes, I've also read how the resistors with the silverplated leads sound "brighter", and no, the sound you hear isn't "brigher" it's the headache from hearing them say that.

Quote from: MedO on
I guess the sound a capacitator makes can be desribed as a loud "Bang!"...


Especially if you connect a 'ylitic backwards. 

Quote from: Axon on
There's an old, infamous article by Walt Jung that describes all the various audio qualities of the various capacitors. Off the top of my head, there are some real nonlinearities with some capacitor types that will cause distortion/noise in some situations. I do agree though that the whole capacitor issue has been mostly overblown, and I trust equipment manufacturers far more when they advertise their numeric specifications instead of the exotic materials used.



In particular, using any kind of ceramic or electrolytic in a place where it will undergo a large voltage swing across it is where you can get into trouble. The fact that the spec sheets show a spec for "capacitance change as a function of voltage" might be a clue there.

The "sound" of capacitors isn't quite meaningless. More often than nonlinearities, though, I've found that surprising levels of inductance lead to a "bang" from a nice power FET, if you're not careful.
-----
J. D. (jj) Johnston

Capacitor sound

Reply #16 –
Quote
In particular, using any kind of ceramic or electrolytic in a place where it will undergo a large voltage swing across it is where you can get into trouble.


Exactly. Capacitors do often play an important part in amplifier distortion. Capacitors used for coupling in a circuit typically form a simple C-R highpass filter as shown below. At midrange frequencies, which are well above the low freq cuttoff, then amost all of the signal voltage appears across the load (resitor) and almost none appears across the capacitor. At these frequecies any old capacitor type will perform well.

At frequencies approaching the low frequency cuttoff however the situation changes and the voltage across the capacitor is no longer negligable. As the capacitor receives more of the signal voltage then it's dielectric gets worked harder and nonlinearites become more apparent.

You can actually notice this directly in a loopback test with something like RMAA. On many cheap sound-cards (especially onboard sound) you get a very noticeable increase in THD when the reference tone is a low frequency say around 60Hz. Increase the frequency of the reference tone to a few kHz and suddenly you find the THD is nice and low just like a good quality sound-card. It's actually the quality of the coupling capacitors that's making all the difference here.

Code: [Select]
o----C-----------o
            |
            R
            |
 o----------------o


Anyway that linked article is pure rubbish. What he should have done is a simple THD test on a bunch of C-R highpass filter as shown above with the various different capactior types (while of course keeping the cutoff frequency a constant).